Doom Classic v2.0 source release watch (now released)

Gez said:

There has been no talk about this. There was talk about not starting legal procedures. I consider that the emails Quasar sent do count as "doing something".

Please quote the sentence in it's entirety. The meaning changes considerably with selective quoting.

Yagisan said:

But really, all this talk about not doing anything to prevent a possible cancellation of a future idtech source release is immaterial to the problem at hand.


You, yourself advocate, not rocking the boat, just in case they cancel future idtech source releases.

As far as I can see, Quasar has done everything reasonable to prevent further escalation. As long as communications remain open between Quasar and Zenimax, there is no need to escalate it further up the legal process.

Finally, some food for thought on licensing:
http://www.fsf.org/news/2010-05-app-store-compliance/
http://www.fsf.org/news/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/no-gpl-apps-for-apples-app-store/8046

Really, the best course of action for all concerned is for Zenimax to negotiate with Quasar and the other rights holders.

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Just to be clear I haven't been in touch with anyone from Zenimax yet, nor is it clear that their involvement is required to resolve this issue.

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I don't think anyone from Zenimax itself is involved in this. Zenimax is neither a developer nor a publisher. It's not Zenimax that is sitting on the source code, they don't have it; it's Id. And contrarily to Doom 3 earlier, Id isn't waiting for an okay from Zenimax, since the Doom and Wolf 3D code was already open before they entered the picture. Id's mobile team isn't waiting for a greenlight from Zenimax.

Furthermore, we know that they aren't against open source: John Carmack did say that they gave the okay to open Doom 3's engine, and that a woman from the Zenimax legal department actually encouraged him to keep opening the code of older games.

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Quasar said:

Just to be clear I haven't been in touch with anyone from Zenimax yet, nor is it clear that their involvement is required to resolve this issue.

Gez said:

I don't think anyone from Zenimax itself is involved in this. Zenimax is neither a developer nor a publisher. It's not Zenimax that is sitting on the source code, they don't have it; it's Id.

I respectfully disagree. Id no longer exists - you are dealing with Zenimax. It's clearly listed here http://www.zenimax.com/management.htm

Gez said:

Id's mobile team isn't waiting for a greenlight from Zenimax.

No one knows what they are waiting on - my suspicions are that as there isn't a particular person responsible for ensuring that the open source license they used is being complied with, no one is in fact working on this issue.

Gez said:

Furthermore, we know that they aren't against open source: John Carmack did say that they gave the okay to open Doom 3's engine, and that a woman from the Zenimax legal department actually encouraged him to keep opening the code of older games.

Previously it benefited the shareholders to do such a thing. It built up lots of valuable, but intangible, goodwill. It has also led to this situation, where they have reused code, that was released under an open source license, code that was enhanced, cleaned up, and transformed by community members under that open source license - and they have not complied with the terms of that license.

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With all due respect Yagisan, pulling id up on their failure to comply with the GPL license which they themselves applied to the source in question leaves somewhat of a bad taste in my mouth. I understand where you are coming from but lets not loose sight of the fact that without their releasing the source in the first place we wouldn't be in the situation at all and neither would there be source ports of any description.

Going "strong arm" over this is absolutely the right way to encourage Zenimax to decree that supporting the open source community is not in their interest.

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Yagisan said:

I respectfully disagree. Id no longer exists - you are dealing with Zenimax. It's clearly listed here http://www.zenimax.com/management.htm

Sophistry. Id may no longer be an independent entity, but it still exists. Its staff is separate from the staff that works at Zenimax itself. Their offices are separate -- Zenimax is in Rockvill, MD; while Id is in Dallas, TX.

Unless you mean that when they bought the company, they imprisoned every member of Id Software and replaced them by demonic dopplegangers? I guess if so we'll have to find the eight scattered parts of the Staff of Chaos and defeat the evil battlemage Jagar Altman.

Zenimax itself isn't involved in this. That Id belongs to them doesn't change this simple fact.

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OT, but when did Jim Flynn pass away? It sucks to read this; last time I heard he was doing better and recovering :/

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Mordeth said:

OT, but when did Jim Flynn pass away? It sucks to read this; last time I heard he was doing better and recovering :/

If that is the case then he may in fact be fine. It was the last *I* had heard that he contracted some sort of hospital infection coming off of an already serious health problem of some sort. I never heard anything more after that so I was forced to assume the worst. Lee Killough was my source for the information I knew, btw. I was asked at the time to keep it hush-hush, but I think enough time has passed now to at least be this open about it.

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I almost every transaction today we deal with companies owned, partially or wholly by another, without knowing or needing to know. We can deal with Id without considering Zenimax.

Sometimes, it helps to drag the end owner into the discussion just to make them uncomfortable, because that helps to get a compromise decided. This is only needed when it is determined that someone not involved in the negotiation has control and is dragging their feet. For that reason, I think we can ignore Zenimax until such time we believe such things.

There is valid legal reason to make any transgressor aware of your position, and that silence on your part does not mean acceptance on your part, because it can be reasonably argued that such silence was interpreted as tacit acceptance. A simple statement of how you do not accept what they are doing, and that you are waiting to hear from them is enough (in my opinion), to protect your legal position.

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Just thought I'd mention that both Doom and Wolf3D on the iPhone have been updated to 2.1. A few bug fixes and menu tweaks... Maybe this is part of the reason for the delay? Not much point releasing code that's defunct within a week.

PS: Gimmee the Wolf source! :P

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Average said:

Just thought I'd mention that both Doom and Wolf3D on the iPhone have been updated to 2.1. A few bug fixes and menu tweaks... Maybe this is part of the reason for the delay? Not much point releasing code that's defunct within a week.

PS: Gimmee the Wolf source! :P

Quite possible, let's wait a bit and see ^_^

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Quasar said:

If that is the case then he may in fact be fine. It was the last *I* had heard that he contracted some sort of hospital infection coming off of an already serious health problem of some sort. I never heard anything more after that so I was forced to assume the worst. Lee Killough was my source for the information I knew, btw. I was asked at the time to keep it hush-hush, but I think enough time has passed now to at least be this open about it.


Not to interject into a conversation I can only observe in interest, but hearing about Flynn saddens me. I do hope the worst hasn't happened; he contributed a lot to the Doom community in its early stages and I'm really enjoying his Titan series at the moment.

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When did Mordeth and when did Quasar last hear about him? Whichever is more recent is probably more reliable.

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DaniJ said:

With all due respect Yagisan, pulling id up on their failure to comply with the GPL license which they themselves applied to the source in question leaves somewhat of a bad taste in my mouth. I understand where you are coming from but lets not loose sight of the fact that without their releasing the source in the first place we wouldn't be in the situation at all and neither would there be source ports of any description.[/b][

It way well leave a bad taste in your mouth, but with the overwhelming opinion in this thread to let one particular license violator continue to do so, just because they own some of the original copyrights, I am compelled to point out the potential ramifications of this. It visibly weakens your position against other license violators, because you can be seen to condone such violations.

DaniJ said:

Going "strong arm" over this is absolutely the right way to encourage Zenimax to decree that supporting the open source community is not in their interest.

It's no different to having any other licenser go after them, except they tend to want monetary compensation, where as we simply wish to enforce the terms.

All I can do is offer my advice in this thread - I am ( thankfully for many of you ) not a party to the legal dispute at hand. No one is forced to take my advice.

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Sodaholic said:
When did Mordeth and when did Quasar last hear about him? Whichever is more recent is probably more reliable.


I initially heard about it the same way Quasar was informed, many years ago. Last mention was Lee K's blurp on a youfailit.net blog on June 12th 2008, stating

I’ve stayed somewhat in touch with Jim Flynn (Boom, Eternal TC), who is doing better now after two years of health problems.


I sure hope he's OK :/

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Mordeth said:

I initially heard about it the same way Quasar was informed, many years ago. Last mention was Lee K's blurp on a youfailit.net blog on June 12th 2008, stating


I sure hope he's OK :/

OK what I heard was definitely before 2008. Around 2006 would have been when Lee told me he was doing very badly. However I tried to find out how it turned out a year or so later and Lee told me he had lost touch with Jim and his caretaker at that time, and therefore didn't know how he was doing or if he had even made it through.

If he IS in good health, he's still getting up there in years. He was in his 60's back when they were working on BOOM and I don't think a lot of people realized he was that old ;) I certainly didn't know myself until I read some of his biographic material on his webpage (he was doing hardcore ASM coding on the old "core memory" machines before any of us - or some of our parents even - were thought of).

Either way, here's one for you Jim. BOOM wouldn't have been possible without you.

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Quasar said:

If he IS in good health, he's still getting up there in years. He was in his 60's back when they were working on BOOM and I don't think a lot of people realized he was that old ;) I certainly didn't know myself until I read some of his biographic material on his webpage (he was doing hardcore ASM coding on the old "core memory" machines before any of us - or some of our parents even - were thought of).

Either way, here's one for you Jim. BOOM wouldn't have been possible without you.


Oh, wow! That's something I never would have guessed.

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Oh, good. I'll remove the barometer from the teacup ;-)

Thanks to Quasar for making polite enquiries and to everyone else for being patient and not thoroughly overreacting and getting lawyers involved.

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iPhone Wolfenstein source is available as well. Shame it's now on a site that doesn't have an index though.

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Quasar said:

Carmack didn't actually let me know it had been uploaded, I just decided to check myself.


Oh, John forgot to mail you. Bad, bad Carmack no cookies for you! Are you serious?

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:)



Most changes since 1.0 look so :)
- Created by John Carmack on 4/13/09.
- Copyright 2009 idSoftware. All rights reserved.
+ Copyright (C) 2009-2011 id Software LLC, a ZeniMax Media company.

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They need to hurry up and release Doom2, or give us the promised wad-loading feature ><

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Great news about the source release. I've now got something interesting to read over the weekend :)

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cybdmn said:

There other stuff missing by far longer. The source for the iPhone port of Hacx is still missing.

http://hacx.generalarcade.com/

The source link lead into 404 since the start of the site.


Also, the game "Bastards" seems to be in GPL violation. Check out the bottom of this page

http://www.boxmedia.ro/bastards/

They are clearly simply linking to the original iPhone doom source (http://www.boxmedia.ro/bastards/doomclassic_iphone_v1.0_source.zip) rather than making the derivative source code available. Hmm...

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I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Maybe they didn't even change the source code.

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Considering the zip file is named exactly the same and the provisioning profile in the project is still set to "John Carmack", it's a conclusion I'm willing to jump to.

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