Vile Flesh, by Gwyn Williams: upcoming Legacy version

Erik, my friend, I don't use a translator to read and write posts, and I perfectly understood Darkhaven...
I'm overreacting?!?... Huh?!?
I don't think so!

Darkhaven, you have... "several mapping projects underway"? And what? It is enough to give you the authorization to criticize???
Nah!
Projects are of ZERO importance, as long as they aren't released.
And I already saw what you released previously, and I don't think that that gives you some authority for saying to others what they should do....
That said, you makes me think of someone receiving a gift, and telling to everybody that it don't please you...
And you were... "implying a simple suggestion"?!? I understood it more like a rocket shot than like a suggestion...

About lightnings, don't criticize the Legacy engine, but my personal settings, and do keep in mind that you can adjust it to your own preferences very easily. I admit that it's a little bit too much like a closed sphere, and that I would have prefered to have blured lens flares, but...
Hey, this engine is also a pure gift!!! So, I'm pleased to use it freely and like it is, as long as i'm absolutely unable to improve it myself.
And you, you are able to improve it?
No?
If not, you are right to ask friendly an improvement to the Legacy Team, but surely not to tell that their engine is shitty!!!

Period!

A last point to clarify:
how many of you are able to write such a thread in French without any help, apart a dictionary for missing vocabulary?
I learned English when I was 17 (and I'm now 51), and I didn't use it at all during 30 years. When I came on the net 4 years ago because I thought that I could be of some utility for the Doom Community, I had to remember what I learned 30 years ago, alone, without any help.
How many of you are ready to do the same effort, for free, just with the idea to share?
Hmmm?
Hey, just for the pleasure, do answer me in French (and more than a few basic words)... Muhahaha!!!

Vooly voo, look at the shit on my shoe.

And by the way, that E1M1 remake is by far not the only Doom map I've ever made. I know how the DooM map format works inside and out, and I know the standard for Doom mapping set by our greatest mappers (e.g. Tormentor667, TUD, Erik, those who worked on Memento Mori, etc.) . I'm starting to wonder if you ever thought I was trying to help you in the right direction, instead of shoving you over the edge. And if you think people are always going to say that your stuff looks great, you're up for a rude awakening.

Less dark and more heaven could be a good beginning, you don't think so?

Just... Just ONE friendly comment: I'm not waiting anything from the community, I never awaited anything from it, and I do nothing but show it what I prepare to share. Same for both of my sites!!!

I'm free, so is my work: nothing else than an effort to give pleasure in exchange of nothing…

"And war stopped by lack of fighters!"

Why does everyone always spell my name "Darkheaven"?

It was a pun!!!

Sorry, but alot of people are being retarded all around and calling me "Darkheaven" or "Darkhevan" or whatever at other forums, and it just pisses me off. How fucking simple is it to look at someone's username and spell it right?

I apologize for this stupid joke!!! You are right: you have a nick, and this pun was a bad idea... Sorry!

Those wads lack detail.

it's a one-man megawad for god's sake, with very large maps too. That is an achievement very few others (if anyone really) has pulled off.

Phugit!

Doominsanity said:

Don't get me wrong, Jive does a great job, but in my opinion, without legacy's fancy lights and shit, they look archaic.

I am not talking about Jive's work. I am talking about the original megawad and it's author. Go create 32 large complex levels yourself if you can...

It can be done. How long it takes, nobody knows.

Doominsanity, don't talk anymore in the wind, do it! (even without details, hey?)
LOL

I hate such bad comments about a work which is pure gift... You should be ashamed by your lack of good manners, man! Indeed!
At least, you should have said:
"I would have prefered more details, but... Heh, I'm pleased to play it without having anything to do with its creation... I can't even imagine how many thousand of hours were burned to do it like it is, and how many would have been necessary to add some details, here and there!!!"

But I talk, I talk, and during this time, I don't work on it... Shame on me to lose my time like that!!!

I agree with Jive here, one-man megawads shouldn't be subjected to talk about lacking detail or some slight misalignments. Only megageeks like myself even consider stuff like that in their megawads.

Erik said:

Only megageeks like myself even consider stuff like that in their megawads.

Proud megageek here. My one-man megawad is back in full force now that cc2 is done!

Rock on Jive. Like what I've seen so far with your megawad tweaks. ;)

One man megawads are hard to finish.. They're very time consuming and even when you have the time to work on it you find that boredom and mappers block can set in and thus you end up losing a month to taking a break. meh. But yet we do it anyhow because we love Doom. :)

Not everyone knows how to use legacy effects to the fullest extent. Jive does, and few others do. Do you think all those fantastic jdoom wads pop out of fresh air? The authors work hard to give the wads the look and feel they have. Legacy is underrated because it is under used. Just wait and see.
When atmosphere is released, you will see what I mean. I am an artist, and using the legacy engine I have harnessed colors and effects not readily seen before in the legacy community of wads, let alone the doom community. I shit you not.
http://www.geocities.com/rasputin1980/atmosphere.html
another little pic is currently on the newdoom homepage for the pic of the week thingy.
none of these shots do the mod justice.

Doominsanity said:

Don't get me wrong, Jive does a great job, but in my opinion, without legacy's fancy lights and shit, they look archaic.

I would like to point out that Jive is reworking my original levels. Any lack of detail, therefor, is largely down to me. Though I would contest that they lack detail:-) There could be more, granted, but Vile Flesh took such a long time to complete as it is that I wasn't going to go back through each level, revamping it just because a wall looked a bit bare.

Gman, aka Gwyn, the Vile Flesh's author, worked hardly on this megawad and, obviously, in order to release it, he choosed voluntary to don't build everywhere very complex areas and architecture. A good example is this following screenshot (extracted from Map18), which let you see by yourself how it could be upgraded if time wasn't a problem...
You can see on the left how it was designed by Gwyn: fully functionnal for the gameplay and the course of the game, but insufficiently detailed for lack of time, and not of capacity to do it, I had already taken freedom to bring some additional details to it before a criticism of this kind is made. I don't think of being mistaken by affirming that Gwyn would have drawn it as that if he had had time of it…



Another example, this time extracted from Map09:


You can easily understand that such a work can't be done everywhere, apart if it was a project built by a whole team!!!

Jive, i gotta say, it looks like your work will be a 'gift' to the community. The screenshots look very cool, and i'm looking forward to playing it.

Negativity comes in all forms, unfortunately, online forums seem to harbor many people who love to tear others down, rather than provide real, constructive criticism.

Instead of saying something general like, "your rooms are all underdetailed", why not mention specific things he could do to improve the level... such as adding a certain theme or something to make the level feel like a real place.

Anyway, i tip my hat off to you Jive, for staying with doom so long, and working on a solo megawad (i know your pain).

Some stuff I have to say...

Jive wrote
unreleased projects are of ZERO importance

True.

About comments and criticism-this depends on the quality of comments people give on Your wads. If someone says-"this sucks", or "Detail it more", but even "This rocks! Brilliant" or such nonsense just ignore it. One-lined comments (both shit and praise) often bring frustration that one must simply, well, ignore. Full comments, like "The light level is too bright for that sky IMO, make it darker, but then again-You can put torches to show off the lighting-it'll do wonders in dark areas. Try it"-are often rare, but this is the stuff You need to consider and pay attn to.

It's not people hate Legacy because it's underused or whatever. They hate it for it's bugs, at least AFAIK.

The first shot looks great IMO, tough look closer-You might want to align those bricks. Some break in those bricks, like metal, would do wonders.
Second shot doesn't look nice to me. The 3d floors are just.. weird. Is there no gravity? (unless it's an Anti-Grav laboratory of some sort) why the heck are those thingies floating? I'm sorry, but lack of sense is 10 times worse than lack of realism (so a river of blood flowing trough city is good, a building made of bloodfall textures is Bad :( )
Explain. If You want to achieve more detail in that location I suggest You put something to those walls. The 3d thingies are an attraction but the walls make an undetailed impression.

tough look closer - You might see those bricks fully aligned...

Perspective, my dear rule, you're sometimes a mirage's maker... LOL

When it will be released, you'll have the possibility to study this part, and to judge if it's aligned or not... For the upper part, I had to align manually, because DB was unable to do it automatically!!!

About the floating rings... They are rotating on themself, cause you're in a magnetic chamber, a force field generator.
Lack of sense?
Or... You're perhaps out of imagination, man? ;-) :-D

Anyway, I was pleased to read your friendly comments, buddy! Feel free to comment more if you think that it's necessary!

Jive, Editing doom legacy is ok, but aint shit. Try editing UT2004, DOOM3, Undying, Morrowind, or Quake3. And yes, I know how to edit them all. Braggin rights

Ye, but if someone is undertaking a personal challenge, then the more power to them.

Phugit

Doominsanity, the more you talk, the more you goes out of your shoes...

Okay, again IN TOPIC:
From Map24, FraggleScripted, viewpoint from the camera:

The ceiling is kinda empty on this shot. I know there are table and chairs on the floor but try to add something to the overhead plane which is looking plain ATM... Vertical bars, 3d chandeliers, maybe some lights?

I'm tired to repeat every time that this megawad IS NOT MY megawad!!!
My work IS NOT to build MY megawad.

My work is to make it Legacy specific!!!
Its author is GWYN WILLIAMS.
I am NOT the author.
I don't want to make it my megawad.

En quelle langue dois-je parler pour me faire comprendre?
In welcher Sprache muß ich sprechen, um mir umfassen zu lassen?
Em qual língua deve falar para fazer-me compreender?
In quale lingua abbia I da parlare per rendere comprensibile io stesso?
In welke taal hebben I om begrijpelijk zelf terug te geven spreken?
En qué lengua tenga I a hablar para hacer comprensible mismo?
В котором языке имейте I себя, котор нужно поговорить для того чтобы представить удобопонятно?
In which language do have I to speak to render comprehensible myself?

I speak Polish, which You haven't mentioned, but that's not the case.

Excuse me sir, what is Your problem? It is more than obvious that You have taken this wad to brought detail to it-if You don't plan to bring detail to the maps and You only want to add Legacy specific features then why the heck have You detailed some areas? (look at the screenshots earlier in this thread)

I do not care whatever Your goal is. I wanted to give out an advice that would improve a map, lend a helpful hand. I have mapped for a long time and learned that interesting architecture will only make a map better. I did not say "Detail it more cuz it sucks!".
I've only said that the ceiling is a tad bland in comparsion to the table or rounded book cases, heck, I've even given You pointers to make it easier on getting an idea for it, but You've preffered to go wild.

If You don't want my advices, that's more than fine with me.
I'll just leave You with other one-liners, like the ones earlier in this thread, so You can get more prejudiced against normal comments and what to hear and what to ignore.

Nmn's advice seems pretty fair.

Changing topic I noticed you rebuilt endgame.wad. While I appreciate the effort there are some technical problems (the deep water in map05 and some lights in map07). Considering legacy is mildly boom compatible the tranfer lights and transfer heights specials would fix these.