Guest DILDOMASTER666 Posted July 29, 2008 Pretty nice. I played the very first version you uploaded, and I didn't experience any slowdowns of any kind throughout E1 to E4 (yes, this mod inspired me to play UD again). Good job on the recent updates too. 0 Share this post Link to post
RiffRaff1138 Posted July 29, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:Well, here you are. New update. Gibs don't vanish, and you can shoot them again and again.Ahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh, that is beautiful. I just juggled a Cyberdemon's head with the chaingun. Amazing. 0 Share this post Link to post
40oz Posted July 30, 2008 I like this for the most part but there are some things I don't like about it, but it's probably just my tastes. -Pistol needs to be centered. No one holds a pistol like that. -Lose the black gloves. Doom guys gloves are brown. -SSG animation is a little too fast. I understand you intended to make all the guns shoot at their original speed, but he really should put both shells in at the same time to reload at the correct time. -Shell casings should be a little less bouncy (if that's possible) because the sounds get annoying. -In addition to annoying sounds, the blood drip sound is really annoying. -I think the blood spurting out of the bodies after they are dead is a little weird. -The chaingun looks weird, and I think it needs a smoother firing animation, like another rotation frame of the barrels, just two is a little dissapointing along with the rest of the smooth animating weapons. However, I approve of everything else. 0 Share this post Link to post
alien8 Posted July 30, 2008 JohnnyRancid said:I like this for the most part but there are some things I don't like about it, but it's probably just my tastes. -Pistol needs to be centered. No one holds a pistol like that. -Lose the black gloves. Doom guys gloves are brown. -SSG animation is a little too fast. I understand you intended to make all the guns shoot at their original speed, but he really should put both shells in at the same time to reload at the correct time. -Shell casings should be a little less bouncy (if that's possible) because the sounds get annoying. -In addition to annoying sounds, the blood drip sound is really annoying. -I think the blood spurting out of the bodies after they are dead is a little weird. However, I approve of everything else. That's funny. All the things you dislike, I love ;) 0 Share this post Link to post
40oz Posted July 30, 2008 I should also say that the original doom weapon's soundfx should have remained. 0 Share this post Link to post
kaiser_wilhelm Posted July 30, 2008 This is really cool! However, I tried to play it with another add on called scoredoom and the guns didn't work right. I really want to make both of them playable because its graphics style would be perfect for scoredoom's arcade atmosphere. For example, if I pick up a gun and then switch to another one afterward that one would be gone. Also, the pistol animation isn't replaced 100% when I use both wads. Wads in skins folder: SD-Artifacts BBA-16X Dbeauty SDMONSTERS1.4 0 Share this post Link to post
Death-Destiny Posted July 30, 2008 I dunno. The extreme-speed reload SSG is actually pretty fun to watch, IMO. I like how you can elect to only shoot one shell, so you don't waste ammo killing an imp, or something. I approve of this SSG. ;-P Some other things to think about, all probably personal preference: -The splashes in liquid flats seem too extreme. I don't think a little tiny bullet casing should make nearly that big of a splash. -I agree that the blood spurting out of things is a bit tacky. You'd have to shoot someone pretty precisely for that to happen -I also agree that the chaingun looks a bit wierd; it looks a bit midgity to me, actually, like the original one got shrunk. -I also think being able to shoot gibs around is a bit wierd, but meh. =/ [Edit]-Oh, and I additionally agree the the blood spurting and bullet casing noises get annoying pretty fast. -Also, this final gib frame looks a bit wierd. It looks like the death sequence got frozen before being completed, since I don't think blood would stick up like that with the corpse at rest. [/Edit] 0 Share this post Link to post
kaiser_wilhelm Posted July 30, 2008 I think you should make an extreme version of this wad and one that's more toned down (if thats not too difficult a task) then everyone would be pleased. 0 Share this post Link to post
Death-Destiny Posted July 30, 2008 OK, got a few more suggestions that might be useful to ponder. -I really like the SSG. Probably one of the most fun new weapons I've seen with the rather simple alt fire option. Anyways, If you shoot only one shell, you have to reload to use the primary fire. So if I only need one shell, I'll use primary fire to reload the other shell. Perhaps alter the sprites or something to indicate how many shells are in the weapon, so the player doesn't try to "reload" when the weapon is full and waste two shells instead. -I think the imps gib too easily. The chaingun routinely makes them gib, which is kind of silly. -I don't like how the Cybs die. The just play their standard death animation (which makes them disintigrate) and then spawn a bunch of gibs that fall to the ground. That looks very wonky to me. -I think it's kind of bizarre how the Spiderdemon explodes when it dies. Medium-sized enemies like Arachnotron and Mancubi just leave corpses behind, so something huge like a Spiderdemons would seem even less likely to get blasted apart. I think the regular death animations for the Spiderdemons and Cybs were much superior to the gibbing deaths. 0 Share this post Link to post
RiffRaff1138 Posted July 30, 2008 Death-Destiny said:-I really like the SSG. Probably one of the most fun new weapons I've seen with the rather simple alt fire option. Anyways, If you shoot only one shell, you have to reload to use the primary fire. So if I only need one shell, I'll use primary fire to reload the other shell. Perhaps alter the sprites or something to indicate how many shells are in the weapon, so the player doesn't try to "reload" when the weapon is full and waste two shells instead.Why not just, if you fire one shell with the alt-fire and then use primary fire, just fire the remaining shell alone? I know it's possible, I'm sure I've seen it done in another WAD, but damned if I can remember what it was... 0 Share this post Link to post
Agent_Ash Posted July 30, 2008 So, gradually... I will not remove black gloves. I've never liked doomguy's skin-colored gloves and I like black leather. This is just how my mod's supposed to be. Center pistols? Have you even had a pistol in your hand? Actually, what really is odd is the way weapons were held in old games - like Doom - in the center of the screen. In no new game you can find a weapon being held like this. BTW, the most realistic hold of a weapon I've see in the game Condemned: Criminal Origins. SSG animation is already slower, in case you didn't notice. And the weapon itself is actually more powerful. Perhaps I'll add some changes in animation but I'm hardly going to make it slower. Yes, I could make SSG always fire just one round with secondary attack and another one with primary. But then we don't have dual shot. And I wanted to make reload in order to gave you the opportunity to get ready for dual shot after making a single one. I didn't want to make actual reloading function for weapons in order to keep original game play. But SSG needs to be reloaded anyway. Yes the problem with losing two ammos instead of reloading one is possible. Indication by sprite changing is an interesting idea, I'll think about it. Perhaps I can make ssg sprite more detailed and add strikers which would indicate how many ammos were fired. There was a flag +NOEXTREMEDEATH which could help weapons to never gib its target. Unfortunately in new versions of the source ports this flag only works for projectiles, though it should work for hitscan weapons as well. It's not my fault chaingun can gib imps, I added this flag to chaingun. I can change their gibhealth property, but it wouldn't change things much. I'm not a sprite artist. I can't make additional frame for Changin. I even tried, but I don't know what to add: there's one frame with straigh barrels and one with them revolved 45 degrees. What I don't like is chaingun cartridge belt. Perhaps I'll do something about it. Guys, don't you get it? I really wanted to make Doom more cruel. More like Quake or Blood. Forget realism. That's why I make blood spurt around from dead bodies, that's why gibs actually fly around with only 80% of gravity affecting them, that's why even gibs are interactive, etc., etc., etc. So, as for blood. Yes, perhaps the sound is A LITTLE annoying, but that's just because there's only one such sounds. So, help me, give me more splash sounds. I'll look for some too. If you really want it, then yes, I can make special gibs-free version of the wad. However, when I send it to incoming/, I'll choose the version I have now. Casings? Yes, it is possible to reduce their bounce factor, but, honestly, in EVERY mod where there are casings they bounce around just like this. Actually, I didn't invent casing effect myself, I learned from other mods (mostly "Advanced Weapons" and "WW-Diaz"). If it annoys you, I'm sorry. Most people don't care. Perhaps I'll reduce bouncefactor slightly. BTW, at first I had the other sound for shell casings which was really annoying, so I changed it for wad release. Water splashes. What's that so wrong about them? Casing is quite a big thing. Bullet as well. Have you ever watches The Matrix? Remember the moment when Neo is shooting agents with his minigun, while Morpheus's trying to wake up? There's water and splashes. Compare. This all is not for the sake of realism, this are EFFECTS. This is how I see this. Anyway, I doubt I can change these splashes. It's not that easy. Spiderdemon explodes NOT because of its SIZE, but because of an ENGINE within him, which actually explodes. There're actually two engines: one which moves his legs and another one, which revolves barrels of his minigun. Pretty much fuel, eh? Neither Mancubuses, nor Arachnotrons have so much machinery within. Well, perhaps I should think about Arachnotron exploding too... Perhaps I should change Spider animation. For example, make his brain explode and scatter around, while his body leaves back. Or just reduce speed and bounce factor of his legs to stop them flying around like this... Cyberdemon does NOT disintigrate. His original animation is the animation of explosion, after which he leaves only parts of his legs or something. I just add gibs. Perhaps I should keep all the frames of original animation combined with gibs. kaiser_wilhelm, you try combining my wad with a wad which has its own weapon replacement? Funny. It's not possible. And it shouldn't be. Sorry. 0 Share this post Link to post
Karnizero Posted July 30, 2008 You need to implement water/lava/slime splashes when player enters (or even walks over) that liquid. 0 Share this post Link to post
kristus Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:Center pistols? Have you even had a pistol in your hand? Actually, what really is odd is the way weapons were held in old games - like Doom - in the center of the screen. In no new game you can find a weapon being held like this. I doubt you've ever fired a pistol to say such a thing. BTW; ETQW got centered pistol. Not by default, only if you aim. Same as with all the weapons really. 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted July 30, 2008 Yeah, side-viewed weapons have more to do with being able to show more of the weapon models than realism. If a game aims to be realistic it needs a resting position when moving idly and a centered one when on the ready or firing. DOOM's is reasonable for simplicity's sake; let's assume the marine is a bit psyched and moves around tensely expecting to shoot something at any moment while in a level (which makes sense in relation to the gameplay and the face on the status bar), so he always holds his weapons in a ready-to-fire position. 0 Share this post Link to post
Agent_Ash Posted July 30, 2008 Karnizero, if that was that easy, I'd do a lot of effects, for example footstep sounds, different for every floor texture. Unfortunately... that's not that easy. kristus, every rule has an exception. However, in most games weapons are shown in perspective, not centered, and center-viewed weapons is the old style. If I had side-viewed sprites for other weapons I'd include them. However, for pistols it was more important, as there're two of them. As it was said, being realistic we should admit that there should be resting position as well as aiming centered position. Doom is not realistic in any way. And my pistol sprites are quite usual. The same as in Neodoom, btw. I'm not going to change them. New update. I improved SSG slightly. Reloads a little slower, sprite indicates the amount of rounds in barrels. 0 Share this post Link to post
Captain Red Posted July 30, 2008 Being able to knock an imps gibs around after blowing it to bits is the shit There has got to be a better way to do fire. Currently it looks green, yellow and blue smoke. Look at some of the weapon mods out there. Not a bad effort but I wouldn't use it over Enhanced doom. 0 Share this post Link to post
deathbringer Posted July 30, 2008 I don't like the blood splats on the walls, the ones in Nashgore are far better. These just remind me of playing Legacy in 2000. The gore is amazing apart from that though... perhaps some method of combining this with nashgore could be made? 0 Share this post Link to post
Agent_Ash Posted July 30, 2008 I'm not redoing torch fire. I like it. Sorry you don't like blood decals, but if you want them changed, give me others. 0 Share this post Link to post
Agent_Ash Posted July 30, 2008 Update. Now I use usual ZDoom bloodsplats as blood decals (hell if I know why I didn't from the very beginning). 0 Share this post Link to post
kristus Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:kristus, every rule has an exception. However, in most games weapons are shown in perspective, not centered, and center-viewed weapons is the old style. If I had side-viewed sprites for other weapons I'd include them. However, for pistols it was more important, as there're two of them. As it was said, being realistic we should admit that there should be resting position as well as aiming centered position. Doom is not realistic in any way. And my pistol sprites are quite usual. The same as in Neodoom, btw. I'm not going to change them. Why is the dual pistols even in there? They're not firing faster than the single pistol anyway. It defeats the entire purpose of having them. It would make sense if the single pistol was aimed fired slower and had better accuracy, while the duals fire wildly with heavier spread. 0 Share this post Link to post
Enjay Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:Center pistols? Have you even had a pistol in your hand? Actually, what really is odd is the way weapons were held in old games - like Doom - in the center of the screen. In no new game you can find a weapon being held like this. Presumably because modern game designers don't fire weapons and spend too much time watching movies. Or maybe it's easier to make the weapon look cool if you can see a bit of the side. Or maybe its something to do with how much screen space (or what screen location) they take up. Yes, I have had a pistol in my hand, and a shotgun, and an assault rifle - and fired them all. And I have lots of friends in the army who, obviously, spend quite a bit of time firing weapons and have been professionally trained to do so. You never hold them like they are in most games (unless you want to miss everything) and, when you want to fire it, you usually bring it up to the centre of your view and look right along the barrel/sight. ie, the Doom approach is actually more realistic than these silly, offset modern games. Funny thing is, people increasingly seem to think the modern approach is accurate. It's not. Although, to be fair, if you want to take an accurate shot, you stop moving, get yourself into a stable position, brace your weapon and control your breathing, timing it with your firing. You do not run around at 90mph tapping the trigger furiously whilst bunny-hopping all over the place. Jekyll Grim Payne said:Karnizero, if that was that easy, I'd do a lot of effects, for example footstep sounds, different for every floor texture. Unfortunately... that's not that easy. Actually, it is that easy. You just have to define a splash sound for every floor - and I've already made a WAD available for doing that for all the default Doom flats, and then define a custom player class that drops an item during its walking state. The item hits the floor, makes the footfall sound and then disappears. Cutmanmike posted example code for just this a few hours ago on the Zdoom forum. http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18285&p=356484#p356484 Anyway, I really like the mod. I think it looks very cool and has some neat effects that I haven't seen elsewhere whilst still keeping things pretty Doomy. Oh, and I like the black gloves. I never liked the brown ones either. ;) 0 Share this post Link to post
Agent_Ash Posted July 30, 2008 Enjay, I never said that side-viewed weapons look realistic. But as you held weapons in your arms, you'd surely agree, that you can't hold them like in Doom all the time, while moving, jumping, etc. Yes, centered position is correct when it's about aiming and getting ready to shoot. But sometimes your arms need some rest. In most modern games hands are always in resting position. Though in some of them (Call of Duty, for example) you have additional accurate aiming mode, where weapons are placed in the center of the screen. Well, this is a game, anyway. Dammit, that idea about dropping items to make sounds is interesting! Really. I'll do that. ADD: Well, I tried it and I can't say I really like it. Sounds come somehow from behind, as if someone's running behind you. Besides, as See states keeps playing animation when you're already virtually stopped, it really annoys. Also this way I have to disable splashes for blood and casings, otherwise there would be too much noise for such a little things, but this way I lose the splashes when casings or blooddrops land on liquid. 0 Share this post Link to post
Death-Destiny Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:So, gradually... I will not remove black gloves. I've never liked doomguy's skin-colored gloves and I like black leather. This is just how my mod's supposed to be. Center pistols? Have you even had a pistol in your hand? Actually, what really is odd is the way weapons were held in old games - like Doom - in the center of the screen. In no new game you can find a weapon being held like this. BTW, the most realistic hold of a weapon I've see in the game Condemned: Criminal Origins. Yeah, black gloves are so much cooler than beige ones. That's why they always had black gloves in the Matrix. ;-) Anyways, when you aim a weapon like a pistol, it is much easier to aim if you hold it centered than out to the side (and easier to brace against the kickback.) I'm not really to keen on the new pistol to begin with, so I'd probably look better centered anyway. Speaking of the pistol, I continue to agree with Kristus that giving the double pistol a firing mode that's identical to the single pistol is redundant. Perhaps just remove the single pistol or else make the double pistol an upgrade for the single pistol instead of a separate weapon. I'm not really keen on all these bouncable gibs and blood spurts and exploding corpses. They don't seem "cruel" to me as much as they seem "silly" and "unrealistic." =/ 0 Share this post Link to post
Agent_Ash Posted July 30, 2008 All right, all right new update. You lose Pistol when you get Dual Pistols. And these footsteps added. Try them, I'm not sure I should keep them. Anyway, thanks, Enjay. These switch sounds are nice too. I'm not really keen on all these bouncable gibs and blood spurts and exploding corpses. They don't seem "cruel" to me as much as they seem "silly" and "unrealistic." =/ [/B] They should seem funny. 0 Share this post Link to post
Death-Destiny Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:They should seem funny. Oh, this mod is supposed to be silly? I see. Then good job on that count. :) 0 Share this post Link to post
Enjay Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:Enjay, I never said that side-viewed weapons look realistic. But as you held weapons in your arms, you'd surely agree, that you can't hold them like in Doom all the time, while moving, jumping, etc.. Sure, you carry it elsewhere. To be fair, you don't usually carry it in a position that is particularly part of your FOV at all. I was really only talking about firing position. Anyway, no game gets it right because they only have one or two positions compared to the huge number of different parameters that affect how you see a real weapon - like the angle of your head - which is quite different to the angle of mlook. ;) It's all a compromise and what people want and expect are possibly bigger influences than reality. Wildweasels Diaz mod has a weapon that you hold across your chest when you are not firing it and it has a regular and an aimed firing position too - which is pretty cool. Jekyll Grim Payne said:Also this way I have to disable splashes for blood and casings, otherwise there would be too much noise for such a little things, but this way I lose the splashes when casings or blooddrops land on liquid. No you don't and, in fact, the solution is IMO something you should be doing anyway. When you define a terrain, you are supposed to define a small and a normal splash for it (lots of splash wads don't bother and use basically the same splash features for both). However, if you give an item a mass of less than 10, it makes the small splash defined for the terrain rather than the normal one. If you do have a properly defined terrain lump, this will get rid of the excessive splashing that some people have already mentioned. Also, my footsteps terrain lump (which was originally only intended for making occasional footsteps when you land on the floor heavily - but I do like Cutty's suggestion) has silent splashes defined for the small splash of each flat. Therefore, if you make the bullet casings etc have a low mass, they will make smaller splashes in water and will be silent on my footstep terrain floors. It sounds like you don't like Cutty's solution anyway (I never really noticed the "someone behind you" effect myself) but IMO you should really make the masses of those problem items smaller and define your splash WAD accordingly anyway. [edited cos I was quoting the wrong bits O_o] 0 Share this post Link to post
RiffRaff1138 Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:Yes, I could make SSG always fire just one round with secondary attack and another one with primary. But then we don't have dual shot. And I wanted to make reload in order to gave you the opportunity to get ready for dual shot after making a single one.I really should have worded that better. I didn't mean that each trigger should be solely for a single barrel. What I was trying to say was, if both barrels are loaded, then primary fire should fire both barrels. But if only one barrel is loaded, then only in that circumstance, the primary and secondary triggers should both just fire the remaining shell, and then reload both barrels. 0 Share this post Link to post
Agent_Ash Posted July 30, 2008 Enjay, nice. I'll work with mass. RiffRaff1138, I still don't like it. I want to have an option to load one ammo and get ready to make dual shot without firing out the remaining round. Well, I improved sprites and I think now there're no problems. All right, reuploaded. Fixed splashes and that's it. I think I worked on this mod enough. People got interested and said a lot, that means I was succeful enough. Well, I did what I wanted. If someone doesn't like it, than you don't like my idea of the mod, but there's nothing unusual about it. 0 Share this post Link to post
Death-Destiny Posted July 30, 2008 Jekyll Grim Payne said:All right, reuploaded. Fixed splashes and that's it. I think I worked on this mod enough. People got interested and said a lot, that means I was succeful enough. Well, I did what I wanted. If someone doesn't like it, than you don't like my idea of the mod, but there's nothing unusual about it. Don't get the wrong idea. Everyone here is enjoying it, which is why they are making all these comments to assist you in making it even better. There's nothing "wrong" with the mod in the subjective sense. Back on topic, while using this mod, I did notice something else that probably ought to be addressed. I often find that the shootable gibs are getting in the way. If I try to shoot something behind a bunch of gibs, the autoaim makes me shoot the gibs instead. That gets extremely frustrating after you waste a lot of ammo and health on something that was only meant for a few good laughs. I never thought making the gibs shootable was a good idea. I know you're probably tired of making changes by now, but a few other things you might want to think about when you feel like working on this more: -It's a fair enough point that the blood spurting is fun to watch every now and then. I think the best thing to do is just set this to happen randomly, like a 15% chance or something. This would prevent the blood splatter noises from getting too annoying as well as preventing the fountains of blood from getting old because of happening every single time. -Also, I think you should do the Cybs death sequence the same way as you did the Spiderdemon. That is to say, simply remove most of it's death animation and make it explode into gibs. At the moment, it *does* just play the regular death animation and spawn a bunch of pieces 100 or so units in the air. Also, perhaps you should make these two enemies explode from taking a lot more damage than they have health remaining, so a chaingun bullet doesn't make either explode into a million pieces when they would intuitively just fall over and die like normal. This is good-looking so far. I'm liking the improvements you added since the first version. The SSG is the most fun weapon, IMO. Speaking of which, I like the way it's programmed now. I like being able to reload a single shell in case there's a Hell Knight around the next corner as opposed to being forced to use two single shots in a row. The sprite alterations that indicate the number of shells in the weapon seems sufficient. 0 Share this post Link to post