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jute
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Over at the OpenArena boards Stilgar has been posting some really fine resources that could be used to make a "FreeHeretic" project:





Stilgar has also been contributing textures for a FreeHexen II project on those boards. The textures fit the Heretic aesthetic and he has already made many more textures than Heretic had in the first place! These would be great to use as placeholders if not final textures. Here's me running a random Heretic map after doing some texture replacement with Stilgar's textures and adding the "batstaff".
http://www.jeshimoth.com/jutegyte/freeheretic03.png
(Apologies for the glitchy white pixels on the green floor texture. XWE did that for some reason.)

So would anyone be up for a project like this? Leilei had the idea and mentioned it working as a branch of FreeDoom, which seems reasonable to me.

Last edited by jute on Oct 22 2008 at 15:47

Old Post Oct 22 2008 15:17 #
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Tango
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I could maybe contribute a level.

Old Post Oct 22 2008 15:30 #
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leileilol
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I would avoid using a "Free*GAME*" type name though. It only worked for FreeDoom because it's almost the word "Freedom"

Old Post Oct 22 2008 15:42 #
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jute
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Tango: That would be great!

leilei: True. I'll add some quotation marks to the title of the thread.

I've PM'ed fraggle about this so hopefully there will soon be some sort of place for this stuff.

Old Post Oct 22 2008 15:45 #
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Gez
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leileilol said:
I would avoid using a "Free*GAME*" type name though. It only worked for FreeDoom because it's almost the word "Freedom"

I had a very clever name for "Free Heretic" but then I found out the word "relaps" doesn't exist in English and you have to say "relapsed heretic" instead... (Though during my search I found hitsonim and it has the advantage of starting with an 'h', but that's far too obscure a word to be used. Plus, it sounds like "hits on him".)

Anyway, these sprites are great, though they seem to be intended for a "Free Hexen" project instead. The trees, the shrooms, the tankards, the chains, the many keys, the gargoyle statue variants...

Old Post Oct 22 2008 16:21 #
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Jimmy
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Hopefully Eriance won't mind me posting this. It's his Demon Skull weapon from Demon Eclipse that he has said could be reused into a "FreeHeretic"/"Freretic" (hahano) Hellstaff.



I believe the pickup sprite is actually an edited Blood sprite so whether or not it's entirely appropriate for such a project I'm not sure.

Oh, and if this project does end up getting off the ground, I'm willing to contribute music. :D

Old Post Oct 22 2008 17:05 #
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leileilol
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Jimmy91 said:
someone else's work

This work is derivative of copyrighted resources.

No.

If this project is going to be run, there should be a huge focus on original asset control, because you'll never know, with the community (zdoom in particular) coming from copy-and-paste habitual ripping we can't risk a leak of copyrighted material to seep into the project.

Last edited by leileilol on Oct 22 2008 at 17:20

Old Post Oct 22 2008 17:13 #
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jute
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Gez said:
Anyway, these sprites are great, though they seem to be intended for a "Free Hexen" project instead. The trees, the shrooms, the tankards, the chains, the many keys, the gargoyle statue variants...

Some of them do seem more Hexen-oriented, I agree. There's always room for a "FreeHexen" as well, of course.

Old Post Oct 22 2008 18:46 #
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Stilgar
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Gez said:
Anyway, these sprites are great, though they seem to be intended for a "Free Hexen" project instead. The trees, the shrooms, the tankards, the chains, the many keys, the gargoyle statue variants...

This is almost correct.

The story behind these is that several years ago, I set out to make a Hexen mod on GZDoom, codenamed "Black Metal Hexen" that had the two goals of A) "fixing" things that annoyed me about the original game, and B) Integrating a greater amount of gory/demonic/macabre elements as in Doom/Quake hells and black metal music/album art (hence the working title).

After a bit of playing around, I realized that what I was doing was going to require a lot of work just to have something that worked only on a proprietary game that I doubt many people play/care about any more. This was also well before the engine was even GPL'ed.

So, I decided that if I was going to have to learn/do all that stuff, I might as well go the extra mile and make a stand-alone like Freedoom, so I moved to doing a Doom TC (the engine of choice was always changing, at its peak I had some semi-working stuff laid out in EDGE, where you could walk around a partial map and kill some semi-animated monsters with a hatchet or blunderbuss. The DDF stuff and the map got nuked somewhere along the way though.)

After a time, I realized the horror and tedium of having to hand-pixel ~50+ sprite frames for every complete monster I wanted in game, and this was what stopped the project dead more than anything else. This was before I had any clue how to use 3D modeling programs to help cut some of the work, but even with it, monster spritework (and to some degree weapons spritework) remains the biggest problem (FreeDoom itself is testament to this.) So the project stagnated, but I kept all the stuff for it around, occasionally putting together a few more textures in case I ever took off with it again. When some similar projects came along, I just decided it would be better to offer up some of the stuff I'd made for use than let it languish in obscurity, since they'd been meant to be Free resources from the start anyway.

So, the stuff I made was always meant to have a Hexen vibe to it, more so than Heretic (although that had influence on some of the magic weapon designs), but it wasn't really designed as a 1:1 replacement, only having a similar mood to it. Places where stuff seems to match well are most likely the places where I said, "that thing was cool, and I want something similar."

Old Post Oct 22 2008 19:51 #
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jute
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Stilgar said:
"Black Metal Hexen"

This is still a great idea for a theme.

Old Post Oct 22 2008 21:14 #
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Peanut
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I might contribute a map if wanted. Though I'm quite busy with another heretic project right now (among other things, like I usually am) it might take awhile to complete.

Old Post Oct 23 2008 07:56 #
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jute
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What do you guys think of "Blasphemer" for a title? It fits with the metal theme Stilgar's work is based upon and isn't taken according to MobyGames. I put together a logo and title screen using a GPL'ed font that very much fits with the theme and a public domain image of an inverted pentagram.


Old Post Oct 23 2008 14:49 #
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Jimmy
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leileilol said:
This work is derivative of copyrighted resources.

Just tryin' to help, but he did make it himself from scratch (apart from the pickup sprite) - it just looks like the original. By your logic, couldn't you say that the FreeDoom pistol is derivative of Doom's copyrighted pistol because it looks like the original? What about all the FreeDoom textures that are based heavily off the Doom originals but made entirely from scratch?

Old Post Oct 23 2008 16:43 #
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jute
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Jimmy91 said:
(apart from the pickup sprite)

This is the problematic part. Beyond that, though, like you say, it would be nice if the weapon design differed more. The "batstaff" is occupying that slot right now anyway, though it isn't animated.

Old Post Oct 23 2008 18:06 #
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kristus
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I think it would work nicely as a dragon-claw replacement.

Jimmy91 said:
By your logic, couldn't you say that the FreeDoom pistol is derivative of Doom's copyrighted pistol because it looks like the original?

I'd like to see you make a plagiarism claim on a pistol.

Old Post Oct 23 2008 18:17 #
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Necros20
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I'm confused. :/ what games are you recreating here? It says FreeHeretic in the title but then you go around and yap about other games in the series.

Old Post Oct 23 2008 18:46 #
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Patrick
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I can make gothic/medieval textures. I'd LOVE to see Heretic done in a more gothic, dark style.

Old Post Oct 23 2008 18:59 #
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Stilgar
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Would everything have to fit the same pickup messages and all like in FreeDoom? One of my weapon ideas for the old TC (one that I haven't drawn, but could probably at least put together a pickup for) was something called "Firebreather" that was a device made out of a severed dragon head and was used by making it shoot flames out of its mouth. It'd be a good functional match for the Phoenix Rod, but naturally wouldn't fit with that name.

jute gyte said:
What do you guys think of "Blasphemer" for a title? It fits with the metal theme Stilgar's work is based upon and isn't taken according to MobyGames. I put together a logo and title screen using a GPL'ed font that very much fits with the theme and a public domain image of an inverted pentagram.

Not bad! I'd probably put the text foremost for the title screen though.

Old Post Oct 23 2008 19:01 #
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jute
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Patrick Pineda said:
I can make gothic/medieval textures. I'd LOVE to see Heretic done in a more gothic, dark style.

Feel free to make some textures in that style! Heretic doesn't have many textures to replace, so having a strong theme is a good idea.

I'm working on assembling a placeholder .wad with all the walls replaced by Stilgar's Haktoria textures just to get something concrete accomplished on the project, but eventually having new textures would be better than reusing resources.

Old Post Oct 23 2008 21:04 #
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Torn
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Nice, I am up for making some levels at some point. :)

Old Post Oct 23 2008 22:13 #
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jute
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Here's a .wad with a complete set of replacement walls (and a few sprites and menu images), based on Stilgar's work, with some additional stuff from FreeDoom and some minor editing by me: http://www.jeshimoth.com/jutegyte/blaswall.wad
(I am almost totally inexperienced with wad editing; feel free to tell me if I screwed something up.)

These should probably just be used as placeholders, but it's progress. Note that in the absence of good cobwebs (and a few other things) there are a few inconsequential blank things.

Some screen shots:
http://www.jeshimoth.com/jutegyte/blas01.png
http://www.jeshimoth.com/jutegyte/blas02.png
http://www.jeshimoth.com/jutegyte/blas03.png

Old Post Oct 23 2008 22:59 #
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Stilgar
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Do those maps have some really bad linedef alignment, or did something weird happen to the blue-block texture itself? :-S

Old Post Oct 24 2008 00:11 #
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jute
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The blue block texture is replacing a very small texture, and is itself, unfortunately, very small.

EDIT: for compatibility reasons, I mean.

Last edited by jute on Oct 24 2008 at 02:37

Old Post Oct 24 2008 01:08 #
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jute
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Stilgar said:
Would everything have to fit the same pickup messages and all like in FreeDoom? One of my weapon ideas for the old TC (one that I haven't drawn, but could probably at least put together a pickup for) was something called "Firebreather" that was a device made out of a severed dragon head and was used by making it shoot flames out of its mouth. It'd be a good functional match for the Phoenix Rod, but naturally wouldn't fit with that name.

I think the best course of action might be a dehacked file inside the .wad, since in Heretic not only messages but also skill names and level names are available to edit that way (IIRC).

Old Post Oct 24 2008 04:05 #
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Stilgar
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jute gyte said:
I think the best course of action might be a dehacked file inside the .wad, since in Heretic not only messages but also skill names and level names are available to edit that way (IIRC).

I agree with this, it would require ports that support it though. Is Chocolate Heretic going to have support for such a thing?

Old Post Oct 24 2008 05:28 #
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Gez
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Ports that don't support HHE usually have their methods, so DECORATE/MAPINFO/EMAPINFO/EDF/DDF lumps could be used in addition.

Old Post Oct 24 2008 14:01 #
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Enjay
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Gez said:
I had a very clever name for "Free Heretic" but then I found out the word "relaps"

Relapse does though:

A relapse (etymologically, "who falls again") occurs when a person is affected again by a condition that affected them in the past. This could be a medical or psychological condition such as depression, bipolar disorder, multiple sclerosis, cancer or an addiction to a drug.

For example, if someone who had problems with alcohol were to give up alcohol and then later start drinking again, this drinking might be considered a relapse. It is different from a slip or lapse in that it implies a return to previous behaviour patterns, as opposed to a one-time occurrence.

It may also, in medicine, mean the end of a remission.

relapse
–verb (used without object)
1. to fall or slip back into a former state, practice, etc.: to relapse into silence.
2. to fall back into illness after convalescence or apparent recovery.
3. to fall back into vice, wrongdoing, or error; backslide: to relapse into heresy.

–noun
4. an act or instance of relapsing.
5. a return of a disease or illness after partial recovery from it.

Origin:
1400–50; (v.) late ME < L relāpsus, ptp. of relābī to slide back, revert (re- re- + lāb- v. stem + -sus for -tus ptp. suffix); (n.) late ME < ML relāpsus, equiv. to L relāb(ī) + -sus for -tus suffix of v. action
:)

Old Post Oct 24 2008 14:22 #
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Gez
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Yeah, but firstly it describes the condition rather than the person and secondly the primary meaning is medical rather than religious.


"Blasphemer" isn't bad. "Heathen" could work as well if nobody has trademarked it.

Old Post Oct 24 2008 15:27 #
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Patrick
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As I have mentioned before, I'd be happy to make weapon sprites, and well as gothic/medieval themed textures.

I personally think a more gothic/dark theme would be really appropriate. I always wished Heretic had a little more "dark" feel about it. I'll throw some simple textures together to show what I'm looking for.

Old Post Oct 24 2008 16:18 #
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Patrick
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not quite complete, but you get the idea

Old Post Oct 24 2008 17:00 #
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