Dormouse - v1.0 - 66kb; Valanas - v0.65 - 819kb

Few bytes = limited map
Less detail = limited aesthetic appeal
few monsters = hardly even a wad
small buildtime = small effort, small result, and limited appeal

Counterexample : Scythe.

Phml said:

Counterexample : Scythe.

This is not a counter-example, as it fits none of the criteria I set out. When I say small, I mean small. When I say few, I mean few. What's the file size -- 2 megabytes. Yeah.

rf` said:

1024 maps
Can be small with sparse detail and look good
Doesn't need a lot of enemies to be challenging
Some people build fast.

What is a 1024 map and where can I look up some file sizes? I am thinking they are a smidgen above 100kb.

icedigger said:

This is not a counter-example, as it fits none of the criteria I set out. When I say small, I mean small. When I say few, I mean few. What's the file size -- 2 megabytes. Yeah.

Consider the sizes of the individual maps. 2 megabytes is small for a 32-map megawad, owing to the fact that the maps are all relatively low detail and mostly very short. The smallness and simplicity of these maps has not hampered their playability (in fact, many might argue they enhance it.)

1024 maps follow a similar theory: the entire map is fit into a 1024x1024 grid. And, even outside the 1024 megawads, people still release individual, small 1024 maps--and many times, despite their small sizes, despite their short build times, and despite the fact that it's only 1 or 2 maps, they're still excellent and well-received.

Also, I can't stress this enough: LARGE MAPS CAN SUCK. You're acting like putting more and more stuff into your map over longer periods of time is automatically making it better. It doesn't.

And why the hell are you posting under a new screen name now?

StupidBunny said:

Also, I can't stress this enough: LARGE MAPS CAN SUCK. You're acting like putting more and more stuff into your map over longer periods of time is automatically making it better. It doesn't.

And why the hell are you posting under a new screen name now?

That was an accident, but I'm going to go with it anyway. And if you don't know why, well, there is a long history of vitriolic disagreement between myself and others, so I thought a fresh name might help reduce any real or imagined resentment towards me. Your use of 'hell' indicates it is not imagined. Anyway, I like my new name better -- it can actually be pronounced.

And of course, automatically, no. Probably, yes.

Cjwright79 said:

Few bytes = limited map
Less detail = limited aesthetic appeal
few monsters = hardly even a wad
small buildtime = small effort, small result, and limited appeal

sounds like the speedmaps I do (but those are mostly DM maps)
but still you can have a good map with a small file, size limited detail, few monsters and in a short time that have great great game play (speedmaps, 1024 maps, ones like this map).

This is not a counter-example, as it fits none of the criteria I set out.

It fits every single criteria you set out. The only argument you could make is that it doesn't for every single map (some of the later maps have lots of monsters, and Map30 is large), but I'd retort it does for most maps and that's enough to be a counterexample.

When I say small, I mean small. When I say few, I mean few.

"Small" and "few" are relative words, and without specifically mentioning which number you have in mind it's safe to assume, for the purpose of discussion, that "small" and "few" means "smaller/fewer than the average", which Scythe is.

What's the file size -- 2 megabytes. Yeah.

Map01 : ~55kb.
Map02 : ~70kb.
Map03 : ~80kb.
Map04 : ~80kb.
Map05 : ~70kb.
Map06 : ~70kb.
Map07 : ~55kb.
Map08 : ~84kb.
Map09 : ~90kb.

I could go on and on, but hopefully the point is made about the average map size. That answers "few bytes = limited map".

The maps are vanilla compatible, so detail is limited, yet good texture choice and great architecture makes the maps visually pleasing. That answers "Less detail = limited aesthetic appeal".

The fights are well choregraphed and interesting to play and replay. The low number of monsters in most maps isn't a problem as they're all used well and the maps themselves aren't big. Scythe is the 4th most popular wad (talking amount of demos) on the Doomed Speed Demo Archive ; it's also ranked 4.5 on idgames with 201 votes. That answers "few monsters = hardly even a wad".

Build time, quoting from the text file : "25 days of building" for 31 maps (Map31 was made by a different author). That's more than a map per day. That answers "small buildtime = small effort, small result, and limited appeal".

Why "probably"? There are countless instances where people say of large maps that they're too long, or too sprawling, or too repetitive...and as for detail, there are a LOT of people who will tell you that more detailing means nothing in terms of map quality. Again, there are numerous aspects of gameplay, such as ammo/monster balance, logic of progression, as well as aesthetic aspects such as variety and texture selection, which don't enter into file size or map size in any way but are integral to the quality of a map. You need method along with expansion for the map to be any good.

my Counterexample:
Xmas Tech Base

as it fits whats Cjwright79 thinks a bad map is. (low file size quick build time minamal detail and low monster count)

Malinku said:

my Counterexample:
Xmas Tech Base

as it fits whats Cjwright79 thinks a bad map is. (low file size quick build time minamal detail and low monster count)

Limited was my word, not bad. They are not the same!

StupidBunny said:

Why "probably"? ... You need method along with expansion for the map to be any good.

Alright, well what's the smallest wad that you really like?

Phml said:

Map01 : ~55kb.
Map02 : ~70kb.
Map03 : ~80kb.
Map04 : ~80kb.
Map05 : ~70kb.
Map06 : ~70kb.
Map07 : ~55kb.
Map08 : ~84kb.
Map09 : ~90kb.

Yes, but the aggregate wad is large. If they were released singly I don't think you would like them quite so much.

Every map in Scythe can be played as a single level from a pistol start and I enjoy playing that way just as much as playing episodes in succession. I could have used other examples such as eaxt.wad or HRB.wad, Scythe is just easier to use as everyone knows about it.

Phml said:

Every map in Scythe can be played as a single level from a pistol start and I enjoy playing that way just as much as playing episodes in succession. I could have used other examples such as eaxt.wad or HRB.wad, Scythe is just easier to use as everyone knows about it.

Very well. The point remains that the author(s) of Scythe cared about the project and put a lot of time into it, which is reflected in its 2000kb filesize.

icedigger said:

Alright, well what's the smallest wad that you really like?

Needs More Detail, in which all 9 maps together are 272 kB, averaging to about 30 kB per map.

Heh, well the author himself seems to admit a deficit in his title. :)

Phml said:

What does that prove exactly ? Genuine question, I've honestly never understood why do so many people post their linedef/sidedef/sector/thing count. You can have tons of useless detail bumping the linedef, sidedef and sector numbers a lot, or on the other hand few linedefs, sectors and sidedefs but an extremely well made and large map. As for things, seeing as it can be imps just as well as cyberdemons or even torches... It doesn't say much either.

I can understand it's slightly better than file size in that at least you know it's about the map, and not textures, music or whatever, but it still seems meaningless to me.

The massive amounts of LineDefs, SideDefs, Vertexes, Things, and Sectors seems to them as compensation for something which depends on them personally. Also some people will only play levels that only go to the limit.

Doormouse.wad - est. playing time, 2 minutes. No exit or 3D starts.


I've run out of steam for the time being, for Valanas.

looks boring..

BlazingPhoenix said:

looks boring..

Yes, but there is also the small matter of how it plays.

Anyway open-air maps take a while before they get nice and sophisticated.

Hey guys, let's party like it's 1994! Someone is being a filesize elitist! Damn hot.

alterworldruler said:

Hey guys, let's party like it's 1994! Someone is being a filesize elitist! Damn hot.

Bro, I'm just passing on the basic facts of how big each wad is, and what percentage complete it's done. No need to be offended.

EDIT: Updated map.

Ok Dormouse is now done, spelled properly, has an exit and no 3d start mode, and I stand behind it as a challenging 5 minute map. The battlefield is wide and somewhat featureless but I think you may find it to be a compelling experience once the mobs start hurting you.

Are you an ettin, or an amoeba-like person now?

printz said:

Are you an ettin, or an amoeba-like person now?

Come again?

You are multiplied, as far as I can deduce from this thread. Seriously man, you didn't need to do this :|

printz said:

You are multiplied, as far as I can deduce from this thread. Seriously man, you didn't need to do this :|

My name is mud around here. I guess I can earn respect by keeping my nose clean. And I guess that would be the proper way to do it... you're right.

Both links in the OP link to Valanas.wad I'm afraid.

Thanks -- fixed. And a good thing too, there wasn't quite enough health until now.

Well, I gave it a go, as I fancied a quick romp. I got it done in 4:30 on UV, and here's my observations:

-Success feels largely luck based due to the lack of health - how hard will that one shot you accidently get hit by hit you? Will that cripple you later?
-The first Arch-Vile's monster closet should have the "secret" flag on the lines facing outwards so that it's hidden. Looking on the automap instantly told me there was something there, I just didn't know what exactly.
-Ammo seems to be too low, particularly with two AVs and a PE. I managed to take out the last Arch-Vile with the very last of my bullets from the four-times-resurrected Chaingun Guy, and had to beat the Hellknight to death afterwards to get 100% kills. If I'd not bothered with 100% kills I could have finished it at about 4:05 at the quickest.
-The lack of cover for when you're fighting the AVs encouraged me to work more on monster infighting, as did the open arena at the start and the mixed enemy groupings.

Those flaws aside, the map was alright. Sort of fun for a quick blast, but like my own small maps, instantly forgettable and probably underambitious. The plain, clean look was perfectly alright with me - aesthetically my only issue was the exit, which looked quite tacky due to the sky on the floor and the dodgy alignment on the fire texture.

Such a small map does rather beget interesting architecture. You'd have had to have changed a lot of it to do anything more than an open, relatively plain arena. I liked the little wall round the outside though.

I think I'll be sure to check out some of your other work in the near future.