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Archi

[Release]Whitemare - megawad for limit removing port

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Couple of console errors in ZDoom due to the use of some unknown flags, but my guess is they are for Skulltag or something.

I'm starting MAP06 or 07 now, thought I'd take a break. I'm quite enjoying these so far, although the first map seemed pretty tough compared to some of the follow-up ones. Seems all of these have a hint of slaughter-map about them, either with nasty Arch-Vile placement or hordes of Revenants. Quite liking the snowy themes, and the christmas tree at the end of Memfis' map was pretty nice!

Music seems good enough to me so far. Nice wintery tunes along the lines I was expecting for the mosty part.

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After playing a few maps, I have to agree with 40oz that the first map makes the ice wall texture look kind of bad by trying to tile it over outdoor areas that are way too huge. Fortunately the next few maps, at least, are a lot better about "doing more with less," outdoor-scenery-wise. I laughed pretty hard at the skull key Christmas tree. Gameplay on HMP has been mostly good so far; I'm looking forward to playing more.

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jerrysheppy said:

Fortunately the next few maps, at least, are a lot better about "doing more with less," outdoor-scenery-wise.


On the other hand I prefer the first map because I prefer large scale architecture over small scale architecture.

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DeathevokatioN said:

On the other hand I prefer the first map because I prefer large scale architecture over small scale architecture.


There are definitely ways to make large scale architecture look decent in the Doom engine (see Deus Vult I & II) but I agree with 40oz that the textures used (and maybe the overall detail level, which admittedly is something you can't really do too much about if it's a speedmap) in Map01 in particular make it look kind of distracting.

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It doesn't really bother me, but then again I play at 640 x 480 with software rendering where everything past a certain distance sort of blurs into itself so I don't really notice repeated texture patterns. Plus I tend to cut snowy maps some slack because I don't really like snowy textures to begin with anyway so I'll try focus more on gameplay general ideas, atmosphere and layout to keep me interested.

Each to his own I guess. :)

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Just started it and so far looks ok, I always liked wintery-themed stuff. One thing I don't agree with though is the inclusion of compatflags via mapinfo - nobody should be forced to play with exe settings on, and in this form they can't be disabled unless you alter the mapinfo (which not everyone can do). This part of the mapinfo should've been in a separate wad so those who want to play with those settings can load it in addition.

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Archi said:

ellmo
Which map has missing things? I tested it on Eternity Engine and seen nothing wrong(Prboom+ also, but eternity has console with errors).

Prboom+ puts its console output into stdout.txt (and iirc stederr.txt) in its directory.

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The Ultimate DooMer said:

Just started it and so far looks ok, I always liked wintery-themed stuff. One thing I don't agree with though is the inclusion of compatflags via mapinfo - nobody should be forced to play with exe settings on, and in this form they can't be disabled unless you alter the mapinfo (which not everyone can do). This part of the mapinfo should've been in a separate wad so those who want to play with those settings can load it in addition.

Uh....why?

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I have to agree in this case. Forcing everything on is precisely not why the MAPINFO options were added. They can be set to make maps work that need certain options to prevent them from breaking.

What's LOL-worthy though is that this mod tries to force the two in my opinion most destructive ones (wallrun and hitscan) which intentionally were never exposed to MAPINFO so all they create are error messages... :D

Most of the other options are harmless and it doesn't hurt much to preemptively enable them (with the noted exception of compat_nopassover which I strongly object to.)

Still, this is fanatism at its worst.

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"Fanaticism at its worst" would presumably involve strapping explosives to one's chest, not an author configuring their Doom mod to use settings other than the ZDoom defaults.

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Guest DILDOMASTER666
The Ultimate DooMer said:

So that everyone gets to play with the settings they want to like with every other wad?


Hey let's make a MAPINFO option where authors can turn off jumping in case jumping breaks their map, knowing that some people don't read .txt files when they download wads! I'm sure only naive sillyheads would object to that

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This mod set some options it did not need. Setting an option that is required to make something work is ok but setting everything as close as possible to Doom.exe's behavior is forcing one's view of things upon others. I for example don't care about the fact that in Doom actors were treated as infinitely tall and I sure don't like it being forced on me just because. This WAD plays fine without that option so it should be left to the player.

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It's a minor change that affects the gameplay of any map that uses height variation. You don't care, but the author does, and it's his mod. There are far more game-changing modifications than this that are regularly made in ZDoom wads.

How are infinitely-tall actors "forcing" something upon you any more than the new maps and textures or anything else in the wad is being forced upon you? It takes a lot more hassle to disable either of those, I should note.

If I use Bruiser Demons and Terminators in my map, am I forcing them on you, too, or are you just trying to sound objective when complaining about a wad you didn't like?

Why are these options even available in ZDoom if authors are going to get yelled at by the developers for using them?

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Guest DILDOMASTER666
Graf Zahl said:

This mod set some options it did not need. Setting an option that is required to make something work is ok but setting everything as close as possible to Doom.exe's behavior is forcing one's view of things upon others. I for example don't care about the fact that in Doom actors were treated as infinitely tall and I sure don't like it being forced on me just because. This WAD plays fine without that option so it should be left to the player.


"What mods need" is not, in fact, up to you to decide for everyone.

Just sayin'.

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way to be ungrateful for these guys' work. they obviously want the wad to be played in a certain way and they certainly don't owe anyone the right to play it with stupid added features. typical zdoom advocate hypocrisy.

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dew said:

way to be ungrateful for these guys' work. they obviously want the wad to be played in a certain way and they certainly don't owe anyone the right to play it with stupid added features. typical zdoom advocate hypocrisy.


Pretty much.

In other words: Hypocrisy at its best. Business as usual...

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Hey, if they'd wanted to make it Zdoom-unfriendly, they could have packed it with spechits-based exits and dehacked features that Zdoom doesn't support, etc.

I can certainly see the wisdom in doing things the way they did in a set of maps by a wide variety of authors. There are so many ways that a map can be broken or malfunction due to port differences (and the options within those ports), that it is a nightmare to test the effects of all of them. For instance, zclipping means you need to check that there aren't monsters pits that the player can fall into, or areas that are meant to be blocked off that the player can accidentally reach. Chances are you'll miss something. As it is, there are some maps that require Boom behaviour to work as intended(contrary to the stated aims of the wad).

Let's not forget that there have been scores of wads released that were intended to be Boom-compatible or limit-removing, but only worked in Zdoom. A feature like this being implemented for the testing would have helped in some of those cases.

As for the attempt to enforce the wallrunning and hitscan options, maybe some route possibilities rely on these, and they are just trying to make sure Zdoomers aren't at a disadvantage.

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Now I'm on MAP15 (nearly finished it) I can safely say that this project is mixed. Some maps are tiny, some are huge. Some look great, some don't. The one consistent thing here, aside from the overarching theme of winter, which has been represented well in a varied way, is the rather difficult gameplay. Overall it's been entertaining, but I'd hesitate to say it's properly great.

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First time I've seen a wad use the Hexen 2 mission pack textures, and I have to say it did work well (it's a great texture set for this setting). Some areas looked a bit too plain, but others looked good too. Difficulty wasn't bad either, and keeping the bfg away till near the end seemed to work too.

dew said:

way to be ungrateful for these guys' work. they obviously want the wad to be played in a certain way and they certainly don't owe anyone the right to play it with stupid added features. typical zdoom advocate hypocrisy.


Since when does playing a wad with different settings to the port it's intended for, mean we're "being ungrateful"? Sorry, but that makes no sense.

Grazza said:

As for the attempt to enforce the wallrunning and hitscan options, maybe some route possibilities rely on these, and they are just trying to make sure Zdoomers aren't at a disadvantage.


Not likely, there weren't any wallrunning puzzles in the wad and I've yet to see an SP wad utilise it in such a way. (and hitscan options would make sure ZDoomers weren't at an advantage, not a disadvantage :p)

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Really? There are no south-north walls (or east-west double-sided ones) in this wad? (And there certainly have been SP wads that deliberately build in jump possibilities that only work with a wallrunned run-up, etc.) I'm not suggesting that any maps in this wad require it in order to exit (that would be unwise in a wad not specifically aimed at speedrunners), but as an extra option it can be very useful in a great many situations. If you're accustomed to not using it, you might not fully appreciate that.

And the hitscan stuff cuts both ways. Monsters attack the player too.

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Grazza said:

Really? There are no south-north walls (or east-west double-sided ones) in this wad? (And there certainly have been SP wads that deliberately build in jump possibilities that only work with a wallrunned run-up, etc.)

Generally, those can also be cleared with a normal strafe-run + actual jump.

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Didn't really like MAP15 in the end. Looked pretty good, nice music, but the gameplay felt a bit lacking. Too large an area, and rather aimless and unintuitive progression considering the very linear goal. MAP31 has no monsters for some obscure reason. MAP32 was pretty cool - fun music with a novel battle. I can't imagine MAP16 being much fun in vanilla. As I'm no fan of Icon of Sin battles I was happy just to go through the motions then use mouselook to remove the puzzle/survival bit at the end.

All-in-all... I'm not sure really. It was alright, I guess?

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Grazza said:

Really? There are no south-north walls (or east-west double-sided ones) in this wad? (And there certainly have been SP wads that deliberately build in jump possibilities that only work with a wallrunned run-up, etc.) I'm not suggesting that any maps in this wad require it in order to exit (that would be unwise in a wad not specifically aimed at speedrunners), but as an extra option it can be very useful in a great many situations. If you're accustomed to not using it, you might not fully appreciate that.


What I meant was there was nowhere that requires wallrunning. There were probably places to use it, whether or not they were useful I dunno, as I don't use it in SP (although sometimes in DM).

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What are your usual settings that are being disabled here anyway? I was able to enjoy the wad completely uninterrupted.

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Guest DILDOMASTER666
The Ultimate DooMer said:

What I meant was there was nowhere that requires wallrunning


I think you're missing the point.

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DeathevokatioN said:

I'm very disappointed you guys didn't use that Christmas sounding song from the RoTT soundtrack. ;)

[OT]Which exactly? Could you give a hint? Most of them sound like latino slaughter to me...

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