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Doom 2 The Way id Did [Final Beta Released!]

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Ok, just found out that in level 22: Borderlands you get two secrets just for walking onto a platform in the lava sea - the first one at
X 3352
Y -1065
Z -56.

And another just by walking into the torch alcove nearby at
X 3087
Y -825
Z -56

What's the point of those two secrets? Even if one is valid, then why keep the second one in? There are totally no benefits from walking into that blue torch. Intentional fuckup?

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marineController said:

MAP31 Sector 796 doesn't damage the player.

I knew I'd miss one eventually. Thanks.

In other news, I'm currently working on the finer points of map21.

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No screw up in my maps is intentional, just shit I didn't both to check for because id.

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marineController said:

MAP31 crashes vanilla doom.

How and where? This is very much a "Works for me" unless something got fiddled with post-submission.

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Da Werecat said:

I think it's a little bit too much.

Yeah that is not a case of "Leave It In"

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Tarnsman's a dirty fixer. A giver inner! All this talk of leaving things in and he goes and takes things out.

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Level 6:

The grate/barred wall in the plasma rifle secret doesn't block the player - you can walk right through it.

Also, the partial invisibility sphere doesn't count/register as a secret. I think it very well could, given that the number of official secrets in level 1 thru 6 is rather scarce - both in comparison to Doom 2 and at all.

Level 7:

I think you should add some way to exit the depression next to where the first door in the level would take you if not for the hidden teleporter - but on the side of the actual level, opposite of the exit. It's quite possible to fall in there and impossible to get out, and this is quite a stupid way to force a player to restart the level. Not that it isn't a fun thing to do - the level's quite fast and lots of fun, haha.

Level 8:

I see that it was renamed from Starstruct, Inc. to Quarantine. But the intermission screen still says Starstruct, Inc. Intentional? I'm not sure if this problem also exists in level 4 which was also renamed, you better double check.

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Level 9: The area with the soul sphere and BFG doesn't register as an official secret. It probably should.

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So wait, someone please explain the situation with the wad to me, how finished is this final beta release? Is it fit for a comprehensive letsplay finally or should I wait for an even finaler release? Cuz if the only things that are missing are "par times and demos" then it is, but if there's like a secret map included but still unfinished then it isn't. Don't wanna look for myself since that'd spoil things. I've been itching to resurrect my video thread and, well, doing D2TWiD has been my plan since forever as some folks could probably recall.

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It should be ready within the next week or 2. Not much is left to do and we're working on getting this out sooner rather than later.

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Sounds good. It'll give me time to mentally prepare :)

Any of the mappers who contributed to this project wanna guest-commentate in the LP when I get to their levels? Or in general? I immensely enjoyed having the author with me in my last LP and it would certainly provide much more discussion material than just me talking to myself (honestly, in the latter case I doubt my ability to make it interesting/entertaining on my own. I'm not very knowledgeable in the technicalities of the various original authors' styles so I won't be able to fully appreciate all the research and effort that went into this if I play alone).

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So far, I have played until the beginning of map 20 ("Leap of Faith"). I really liked the maps I have seen until now, even though I think map 19 ("Bedlam") could need at least some serious texture realignments at many places. Some switches are almost vanishing in the floor, for example.
In Map 31 ("Vorticon"), I had at least one situation when I fell off a small "bridge" consisting of two square pillars, dropped to the right and got stuck in the space between wall and pillars, unable to escape without noclip cheat. However, as there are many spots in that level where you can get stuck intentionally if you screw up (fire pits or drops into "black void"), it's just a matter of saving properly.

The two secret maps are just fantastic in general. Finally, something different compared to the usual Wolfenstein stuff. Thank you for turning those maps into something so special and rewarding! I just didn't figure out how to reach the secret exits in maps 15 and 31 (I cheated because I was too impatient). If anyone is willing to provide some hints how to do it legally, that'd be awesome.

Atmosphere in these levels seems to be very Doom 2-like, and I believe it's a worthy successor to DTWiD. After I am done with the remaining 11 maps, I will provide more feedback (if needed). ^^

Will this also have custom title/intermission screens again like DTWiD had already?

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I mostly stayed out of the project's way, because I wanted to play a complete megawad by some familiar faces that isn't tainted by my omnipresent corrosive touch. Now I can paw all over it, mwahahaha.

map01: A lame maxrun I did by memory on my first attempt.
This map's an exception, I assisted Rott estimating the DM (im)balance and playing duels to make sure the map's as broken and weird as d2m1. It is certainly different and there are loops now, but I'd say it's the best map01 impression since TNT map01. Speaking of which, that new structure in the SG area "ambush" looks more TNTish than d2ish, but I don't care. Overall it's more complex than map01 and much less squarish, but it has its own character while still feeling right.

map02: A FDA, a halfassed max and a speedrun.
Certainly harder than the original map02, but the shotgunner hell feeling is conveyed well. The underground area feels like something from The Waste Tunnels and the upper control room is also less map02 and more... The Focus? The Crusher, maybe? It might be the added verticality. Still, definitely a mesh of McGee, so job well done on that.

Now here's something anally retentive to consider. I'm a bit dumbfounded by the RL secret, it's rather "uhhh". Why the weird bend, why the big size? McGee secrets are economical with size and layout. Apart from some map06 weirdness they're usually just simple closets tucked into some free map space. This feels like a Sandy secret if you ask me - I'd simplify it to a single rectangle.

Also the DM SSG pickup right in front of the RL secret is a bit weird. I don't recall anything in the whole E1 like that. Move the weapon elsewhere. Speaking of DM... the BFG being at the same spot as the BA is so OP. I know that's totally what The Gantlet does (and even worse), but The Gantlet is an open design and plays in a very particular, super-broken way (map01 has nothing on map03, heh). In the corridors of map02/05 this feels too much, imo. The map's large enough to support the BFG (unlike Underhalls), but I'd tuck it away in place of the plasma. It'd make the cellar a place of interest, too.

One more nag: the shellbox in the BA secret?! Is that you mocking us, Tarns? Goddamit, that's like the most useless item on a map filled with shotgunners! Underhalls also flood you with shell ammo, but they don't insult you with shellboxes (outside of MP). Hear that?! We are insulted by this mockery! But seriously... What I'd like to see there would be a rocket or two, that'd make maxing the map so much more fun. I know there's the rocket box from map01 to consider and blah blah, but from pistol start, the two given here are not enough for my gibbing satisfaction. We get it in Underhalls via barrels/rockets carried over from map01, so it's even appropriate.

Now the fun part: I found two excellent tricks/exploits. It's possible to jump over the watery ridge with a rjump orrr a monster wobble + a wallrun (see my speedrun). Absolutely worth keeping, fairly challenging too due to shotgunners and no armor. It's possible that coop players might just run over with a two-player mutual thing run, haha. The other trick is pretty neat - it's possible to access the BA secret early, see my maxrun. The WR line can be activated by monsters, but it's an edge line, so it should be impossible - except dead bodies can fall over AND trigger it. And since they fall towards you when you shoot them, you can just get it at start. Also worth keeping, because it exploits the engine by a combination of bugs and limitations, heh.

Wow, that's longer than I expected.

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NightFright said:

I think map 19 ("Bedlam") could need at least some serious texture realignments at many places. Some switches are almost vanishing in the floor, for example.

Heh, there probably should have been a check for this sort of thing after Fonz reset the map's alignments to get rid of all Doom Builder's random autoaligning.

There are also a couple places that could use some unpegging and/or simple y-alignment, which Sandy didn't mind doing a bit of when differing ceiling heights necessitated it.

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map03: a FDA, a bunch of maxes, a failed speed attempt
The key progression is utterly McGee here, especially the pointless, viciously trapped BK, heh. The boxy, sprawling layout betrays another map inspired by The Waste Tunnels, maybe also the less "famous" corridor parts of The Crusher. Monster count says the same, which is troubling me. It's still just map03, but it's already over 100 monsters and they're often clogging the hallways the way you don't really see until, say, The Crusher.

Since this design resembles map05 the most, I'd say ease up on the incidental crowds. Look how easy it is for speedrunners to race through The Waste Tunnels or The Crusher and compare it to my struggling with your fairly overpopulated hallways. I'd remove one zombie from the first crowd "on the left", one imp from the exit room corridor leading to the lift and one imp from the lift itself. Also one chaingunner from the way up. And one imp from the trio in front of the BK. It just feels a bit too clogged, only the exit ledge of The Waste Tunnels is really this busy - even most of the map06 crowds are easily avoidable. Lowering the monster count won't hurt the "id did" part anyways, hehe.

Another thing to consider: excepting the map06 exit room, American's teleporters are one way and even if there's a destination teleport pad at all, it won't bring you back to the same place. This is especially true for the secret ones. I'd say you should kill two stones with one bird... uh. Basically simplify the invis secret by making it just one rectangle (see my comment on the RL secret from map02, McGee was so cheap with secrets), having the invis visible from the BK room is not against the American way either. Player gets dropped into it unceremoniously, not on a teleporter pad. The pad in the secret room won't lead back, but will drop the player in the pool of the BK room, around the coop SSG. That might also make the secret part of the fastest route - the way McGee has it in Underhalls and The Gantlet. He also has a "cheap" (without a destination pad) teleporter like that in The Focus, the exit room of map05 and the nukage secret in The Crusher. As a welcome sideeffect, the invis might be more of use against the chaingunner quartet at the YK - which is a hilarious introduction, btw. I really like how they start infighting by design, showcasing the soul of Doom 2.

Oh, minor nag - I'd kinda expect a demon or two imps in the YK ambush closet. I don't think McGee has a lot of hitscanners in closets of this type, he does use imps (even though they'll be easier to escape from without a fight).

The final room feels like map05 exit room beefed up with some ideas from The Crusher. That's great, with the exception of the clogginess I already mentioned. There's one thing though - I'd probably add a rocket or two in here, or change the pair from the secret to a box. Considering your monster count, you should treat the map more like the later American maps and provide more heavy ordnance, even by just a little. Four rockets is not enough, methinks.

Overall it's a fun improvisation with some McGee themes, fairly well balanced (healthwise... ammo is appropriatelly overflowing with shells, heh), I'm just being hardcore, cause you guys want me to. :)


Aaand now DM. As essel told me, the DM placement is done by someone else (Alfonzo?), so this goes for the person in charge. I think it's kinda appropriate, because I'm convinced Romero did the same for the id team anyways.

You should totally recheck the Doom2 maps with the multiplayer filter in DB. You drop too many weapons around. Romero(?) usually threw in a befg and a RL or two, maybe some cells and rox, but he usually didn't bother with SGs and CGs around every corner. So don't do that either. It will be easier for you to remove these superfluous weapons if you remove some DM starts entirely - McGee E1 maps have 6 DM starts at max for map02 and map06, less for the others. You have EIGHT on map02 and seven on map03. Bring it down to 5 for both, I'd say.

Oh and DM starts aren't supposed to be flagged MP only. :P

EDIT: apparently, DM isn't supposed to work the broken way id did, so I retract the part about additional SGs and CGs, heh. I'd still cut down the DM spawns to... well, one spawn less? Also put cell packs somewhere far from your BFGs. It's very id-like, but it's very detrimental for DM balance.

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map04: FDA, max, speed, utterly failed pacifist (ugh)
Huh, it's interesting how much this map channels The Focus without looking even a bit similar. Even the figts are completely different, yet the spirit of hitscan massacre is all there.

There's also a beautiful sleepwalking chaingunner (t. 65) - I gave him a friendly hug in the FDA. He sees you on the upper ledge, but apparently picking his nose is not worthy of a reaction. I'd say "leave it in", heh.

I enjoyed recording the speed and max demos, the map is very dynamic and the only lazy part is the demon punchout, so fun was had. In speed it's about risk management, I had to decide how much health I'm willing to sacrifice vs. speedy progression. What I thoroughly didn't enjoy was the pacifist attempt. I'm not implying pa should be easy - it's anything but in McGee's E1 maps, but there's a certain "trope" McGee most certainly didn't do. If you watched the failed attempt, you can probably guess - the hitscanners "released" from the teleport alcoves. Now the chaingunner is p cool, can be worked around, but the shotgunner is just annoying. You have to patiently wait before he gets out and hope he doesn't start shooting - McGee only did this with exit room pigs (04, 06), which is channeled here as well anyways.

Again, not saying you should make this easy for pacifist, but I'd say running against two chaingunners is challenging enough. Either kill the shotgunner, or make him "free roam" behind the closed bars, please.

I also like the completely hidden and for some reason non-secret (is that intentional?) blue armor section. What's the deal with the cavern leading to it, though? Looking at every McGee map there is in Doom 2, I'm not sure I can see anything even remotely resembling this haphazard, pseudonaturalistic shape. American probably didn't even know you could make those with Doom, haha. I don't really care much, but it looks a bit weird. Then again, the whole map is "doesn't look like McGee, but plays exactly like McGee."

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map05: a comfy FDA, a reasonable (lazy) max and MASSIVE HEAPS of LEGENDARY FRUSTRATION on UV Speed
Seriously. When taken slowly, the map seems about map06-hard, but goddamn. Just rush a little and you're dead. You start with the task of pistol-sniping some barrels to kill groups of monsters. That's so easy to not get right and die. The armor's out of the way in a remote, dangerous and otherwise optional part of the map, the SSG is in the middle of a lava pit with a lot of meat guarding it (fuckin revenants dominating you from the top through fence, ugh), running away from there is extremely risky and will end in a lot of blocked/dead outcome. This is map17-level hard to speed (first exit: 1:20. second exit after a lot of woe: 1:18, grrrr), but it's so much easier to die, because there's no protection. The caco/HK lift before the RK is also a frustrating spot, because so much depends on perfect SSG shots and surviving with whatever health the hitscanners left you with. So. Much. Frustration.

I really wonder what prompted Pavs to make this so ballbustingly hard... map22? That has a comfy secret room right at start, plus plasma. map04? But that has no hard to kill mid-tier monsters! map05 and map06 already dish out serious goodies right at start - The Waste Tunnels give you a SSG and a soulsphere, The Crusher has the conveniently placed mega secret. Only then it's possible to break out hell and still have players zip around at lighting pace. So yeah, I'm begging here for a blue armor secret near the start. GIVE DOOM 2 BALANCE! :p (Also less imps in the BK pit, the HK/revs would be manageable without all the bloody distraction.)

Okay, enough whining. Focusing on the map without the hardcore speedrunning goggles, it's very uncommon... like maybe bits of The Crusher, but with a lot of open design from The Inmost Dens and the lava torture from The Catacombs. Maybe bits of his Quake work as well. A lot of good, challenging ideas, even though some parts (the RK area) remind me more of The Abandoned Mines more, heh. The final YK pit seems borrowed from Romero's map17, although the whole "get key, walk 100 units, use key" is vintage McGee.

Here's a stylistic thing that doesn't sit well with me: the bars. They seem purposefully shaped to disallow gliding, even though McGee never did that. He'd probably shape the blue bars like he did in Underhalls (allowing the ultra-hard, flat-faced glide) and since I suspect Catacombs were an influence here, I wonder why the bars in front of the RK are so tight... let's have some diamond-shaped, 32-unit spaced bars here so speedrunners don't have to deal with that silly caco/HK lift. :)

I'd also like to see the lift in the pit under RK to be slow, so running around is properly faster than riding it, heh.

As I said previously, McGee wasn't big on tele destinations being symmetric, so I'd do away with sectors 130+132 and just dump player in sector 34.

Also how about replacing the 4 imps t. 172-175 with just one revenant? Less meat, less clogging, about the same danger.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, the map is pretty damn cool and focuses on some less expected McGee traits. The RK room and the exit room are awesomely built. It's just that the map's difficulty seems maladjusted for such an early spot. It becomes glaringly apparent when speedrunning. An early secret powerup would do wonders (although a simple soulsphere would probably not be enough, because it'd just mean skipping over some health pickups until you run out of the extra health).

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map06: a FDA, a nomo speed and a max
What a curveball this map is! Except some small map11 influence, this is pretty much a variation on The Abandoned Mines. It's not something you'd expect in E1, but seeing as there are no Romero E1 maps and mancubuses/spiders are avoided in this one... Well, you can't say d2twid is slavishly following all d2 tropes.

Now, this is a good map26 impression. Even the winding ledge to the YK is there, miniaturized. The added central Romeroesque BK platform seals the deal... and all those faithful and true misaligned or terribly clashing textures! I don't have anything to hold against this map stylistically. It also throws in RL/PG action, FINALLY.

Now, there's a small issue of coop monsters - there's no way Romero would put 5 PEs as a coop addition, it'd be a single cyberdemon in the central blood pit. It is known.

There's also the case I brought up to essel on irc... there's a potential verrrrry sweet RJ from the YK door to the lower platform (as seen in my nomo speed). The only question is: where to move the RL so it's not too obnoxious to acquire? An idea: put RL where SSG is now and move SSG to the HK room (sector 136). Chaingunners could surprise people too eager to get the double barrel.

Linedef 651 is non-blocking. Whattt.

I have to say I absolutely adore the inescapable pit of death not far from the exit. A++. Also could you please add an invis sphere around that part so it's theoretically possible to survie the end sequence pacifist-style? If there's ever anyone who gets that far.

Altogether a very sweet and faithful map26-based Romero piece. In an unexpected slot. The length is somewhat in sync with The Crusher though, so no problems with progression. Good job.

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I gotta say, I'm super-psyched about Dew's thorough playtesting spree with these. Will be nice to actually see how off-kilter friggin' Abyss actually is. :P

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First, let me make a note about DM again. Alfonzo, keep in mind one thing when placing all those weapons in the map - they'll be there even for coop, haha. While adding DM support even to larger maps is appreciated thoroughness, you should also think if you want to give that plasma/bfg/rl to the coop hordes. Doom is fun even with the extra weapons, so it won't harm people's enjoyment, just maybe balance. It's just a pointer I wanted to reiterate, heh.

(I switched to e7, so use that if you care for the demos.)

map07: a max and an incomplete pacifist run (heh)
Weird map. It's a fun romp, but for some reason I don't like how it looks. I'm probably used to the orthogonal cleanness and brightness of Dead Simple (McGee influence?). This map isn't actually much darker, but it feels that way, possibly because of all the shadowing/light variations.

The novelty factor is, of course, not very high, but we've already seen most of all the possible permuatations, so I didn't expect shocking originality, heh. It's a fun quick romp, all the possible infighting speeds things up considerably. You should probably mention the control sectors in the text file, because I was confused by such a "non-id" hack before essel explained the thought process to me.

What caught my eye is the possibility of finishing the map pacifist style. It takes some luck and patience, but it's possible to get the spiders to kill the mancos. I assume it's also possible to get the mastermind to kill all the kid spiders, but I didn't hang around for that in the test demo. I was just testing a certain trick, which is apparently impossible (to my regret) - when the mancos die, run quickly over the lowering floors to jump on the exit platform. Alas, it's too far for such a short floor drop, the jump is probably too long and the ceilings are low, so you waste a lot of the potential time waiting for an opening. I'd love to see that trick in, of course, but that's just an idea pitch by a speedrunner, not a recommendation, heh. Tarns mentioned new internal version being smaller, so I can wish...

Oh, and the invul is a hilarious DM killer, that plus the BFG seems like a lovely time for the opponents. We have to try that some time.

map08: A FDA, a maxrun and a failed speed session
I love this map's goofiness. There's a ton of vaguely familiar Petersenian ideas strewn around a haphazard spacious layout... The Pit being the biggest contributor of ideas, but Tricks&Traps, Refuelling Station and The Citadel all chiming in. Good stuff, good stuff. Actually, it feels like another Petersen map created for Doom E3 that was too big and complex for the original shitty engine, so they shelved it for later and when it found its way to Doom2, Sandy had to retexture and repopulate in the last 5 minutes before release. You know, like Chasm and The Citadel. Good stuff.

Now gameplay-wise it's all over the place. There are slow and hyper-busy parts, some dicktraps on par with the PE room from Tricks&Traps and the chaingunner ambush in The Pit. That's fine, but I think the start itself is waaay to busy. It's quite a hitscanner hell with the player standing naked in it. Give us some armor, guys! And I don't mean the "secret" GA under the window, I mean a proper startplace gimmie. Sandy is no stranger to charity, see a free BA in map09 and a gimmie GA behind a corner in map10, technically a free mega in map08, etc. It would be seriously appreciated, considering the opposition. And look at my suffering in the "straightest route" speedrun, that's just pathetic, ahah.

Oh, speaking of route... I kinda facepalmed when I realized that the RK room makes you return to that area yet again. That's a flow boo boo, imo. It certainly makes the speed route annoying, heh. The archvile introduction is cool though... E2M4 inspiration? Also loving the PE introduction - a lame harmless Sandy Elemental. Awesome.

There's a nodebuilder problem here, I think. It's possibly connected to rockets disappearing in linedef 566 (the lame control sector secret).

Oh, and the max demo shows a nice way how to reach megasphere early - which is very desired for a fast playthrough, heh. You can open the lost soul hallway straight away.

Overall it's a fine, fun vintage Sandy map with a rather heavy and overdone start (too many shotgunners, not enough armor).

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dew said:

The novelty factor is, of course, not very high, but we've already seen most of all the possible permuatations, so I didn't expect shocking originality, heh.

I did toss out an alternative idea (that I'd still like to see), but it never got made: A completely spider-themed map (probably cliche-ly named "Arachnophobia") with arachnotrons and mastermind occupying a big ol' arena. It would've served as an entrance to both types of spider enemies (well, the first appearance in our alternate-world Doom 2 for the mastermind, at least) and have a DeHackEd action set to open the exit door when the mastermind is killed.

Amusingly, the concept was somewhat considered enough that I changed A_BossDeath in the Mastermind's death sequence to A_KeenDie (the map-independent "open tag 666 like a door if all enemies are killed" special), which accidentally didn't get removed in the external DEH patch on the first Final Beta release, leading to the "MAP07 IS MELTING AAAA" bug. Good times!

Still not as good as Borderlands and its "THE SKY IS FALLING" episode, of course.

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Xaser said:

I did toss out an alternative idea (that I'd still like to see), but it never got made: A completely spider-themed map (probably cliche-ly named "Arachnophobia") with arachnotrons and mastermind occupying a big ol' arena.

And the whole map would be spider-shaped!

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Back with many words of pseudoexpertise!
First, after playing maps 09 and 10, I'd like to further highlight how over the top maps 05 and 08 are from pistol start. I'm not saying there aren't sudden unexpected difficulty spikes in Doom 2, for example The Pit is pretty badass and actually, The Crusher can be pretty foul too. Refuelling Base can bite you in the ass if you take a wrong turn. But they give you gimmie armors immediatelly! 09 and 10 get this right and rely on difficulty through curveball rooms of death and wrong route picks. Also overall you guys are rather too heavy with shotgunner packs - they're definitely not as common/in my way in the iwad as what I've encountered so far. It wouldn't be so glaring if, say, 05 and 08 had gimmie armors/bonuses from the get go, then it'd be plowing through monsters while taking damage - Doom 2 is anything but a war of attrition. So please, I urge you, hand out those armors, don't be afraid of blue colour either. Those maps are difficult enough and you'll be able to justify the monster counts/placement.

Alright, now map09: Pack: A FDA (long&boring&stupid), an awesome pacifist speedrun full of tricks&planning and a fairly solid max that's TAS'd with re-recording, because at one point I fucked up and went back into the plasma segment (ughhhh) and at another point I missed my important PE shots and didn't want to restart (no time, no time).

I really like this map, I think it's a well done Tricks&Traps homage. I'm impressed that you were able to come up with so many fresh ideas! Of course I'm most impressed by the fact how you can totally cheese the pool of teleports. :) That's absolutely a fantastic "unintended speed route" that must stay in. Planning the invul for the big lift room actually helps making pacifist a real thing, which is extra points fo faithfulness.

The pointless PE room is wonderfully brutal and the switch puzzle in the chaingunner room made my brain sweat - I salute you! Now what I didn't exactly like... You can see in my max how the second ride on the slow big elevator to YK gets annoying, just because you can't sweep the BFG and the YK in one ride. That's probably something needlessly breaking the pace, I don't think it serves any "tru id" purpose. Also I'd probably add a rocket box in the final room just to be able to deal with the HK and the spectres faster. The spectres should be challenging/suicidal with rockets, so I wouldn't call that unfaithful/easy either. Just more fun/speed dealing with that room (and five rox won't be enough to deal with everything unless someone saves ammo better than me - which shouldn't be too hard, on the other hand).

So yeah, both thumbs up.

map10: Pack: A long, careful FDA in which I managed to miss all the good weapons for quite some time, a TAS'd (segmented) max, because I can't remember a route and make good BFG shots when I need them, and two different speed routes.

So, what do we have here, The Factory come early? Seems a bit unwrapped from the bounding box with some additional tallness ideas, but I dig the style. This needs to be said outright - you stroke a perfect resource balance here. It feels exactly like Doom2, even though there's still a higher shotgunner density in monster placement (especially on the RK side of the forever lift). Otherwise this feels right even for maxing/speeding. You have the space to outmanuever monsers, you don't get pcorfed by demons in doors... and somehow the heavy ammo is just right for the manipulated smooth max. Great stuff for planning my route, my BFG shots, my rox tactics. Good, doomy secrets.

Now the speed route... it is almost great. The one I'm talking about is in the longer demo (some deaths inculuded for fun). I really like the small pigs/mancos room, even enduring the two chaingunners on pacifist and somehow pushing through the three RK cacos... but the more interesting route hits a snag on the perpetually moving lift. It seems to always head down when I get there AND it's unreasonable to think you could make it across (even if it was possible on nomo... you'd have to clear away the shotgunners, which would wake the spider and he'd block you anyways). So there's a run-killing wait period that makes the lamer, safer route faster. Boo. Would it be possible to reverse the lift and start it from the bottom?

I forgot to mention a nice bug: if you flee from the off-map room with pigs&mancos, they're able to teleport after you to the RK area. Except the teleporter destionation is too close to a wall for mancos, so they get stuck and await a coup de grace, administered by telefrags or non-berserk fists, of course. Leave it in, I'd say. Just worth mentioning, heh.

One of the best "Doom 2 gameplay" entries so far, just needs the speedrun tweak. :)

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