Relation to Doom, the game

I can't think of another game/engine that has more total conversion mods than Doom, outside of maybe the original Quake, and even there I doubt it. People have been making them since the 90's. Doomworld tends to be a little more centered on the game itself because, surprise-surprise, we like Doom.

I'm more into partial conversions, Strain being a good example, there's enough new things going on in it to keep it interesting while having familiar gameplay.

Agentbromsnor said:

It doesn't neceserally have to be "new" and "modern", just original. There's plenty of ways to be make a original Doom mod that isn't stale.

You've argued over and over again that because you're experiencing Doom burnout, it must be the fault of the unoriginal mod makers rather than the fact that you've just played too much Doom lately. You keep saying that making Doom mods using stock resources is "stale" but nobody seems to agree with that. There's still plenty of originality in modern megawads like Speed of Doom, it's just focused on the level design rather than stuff like sprites, sounds and textures. We all appreciate the really original stuff like Action Doom 2 but I disagree that more mod makers should concentrate on making complete overhauls like the latter. There's benefits to be gained by using easily accessible existing resources so that individual mod makers can concentrate on doing the bits they do best.

Agentbromsnor said:

Also, having seen a couple of modern WAD's, I'm pretty confident that there's still some life in this old engine. In addition, if everyone in the Doom community had this mentality of "the engine isn't optimised for this" then we wouldn't even have the sourceports that we have now, so that argument is a little flawed.

One of the big benefits of Doom for me is that it runs lightning fast with lots going on at once on my crappy laptop, and yet every time I've played a mod with a lot of these new features it runs like crap. I can play Half Life 2 with no issues but a Doom mod with a few 3D floors in view causes stuttering at the lowest settings.

Agentbromsnor said:

Besides, I already explained that Doom is easier to mod then most modern games, and easier to make maps for. That alone is a big reason to keep improving the tech.

It's only easy to make maps for if your maps conform to the limits of the engine. If you want to make a map that's a big tall tower with lots and lots of floors laid on top of each other then it's a complete nightmare to map using 3D floors and proper 3D engines do it so much more easily, and without frames per second falling to single digits. Even something as simple as "slopes" is way easier in other engines.

But enough about the tech because it's straying from your original point about the Doom community not being original enough. If you take a close look at any other modding community there is always tons and tons of "unoriginal" stuff using the basic resources. The most original stuff has a tendency to make itself well known so if you don't get involved with the community it might be all you get exposed to. This issue with the Doom community isn't unique, or even a problem. It's the same wherever you go. You bring up the Half-Life community but the vast majority of it is stuff that's just basic unoriginal crap too.

Agentbromsnor said:

Duke 3D uses a sector-based 2D-engine with sprites, how is that an unfair comparison?

Duke3D is more flexible out-of-the-box. Doom is relying on third-party engines for its bells and whistles.

If you're saying that every mod is made from the ground up to support all the latest additions for the sourceport its developed for, you're frankly talking out of your ass. Dynamic light has been a part of GZDoom and Skulltag for I don't know how long now, and yet its still a big taboo in maps today.

Again, read the post. I don't know WHERE you've got this notion from. I'm saying quite the opposite. Just because a feature is available doesn't mean it MUST be used. That is down to the discretion of the modder. For the record, I use dynlights and I'm not the only one. Go and play Legacy Of Suffering.

Its okay if you want to put me off as some kind of pretentious prick, but if you honestly can't see the point with the majority of Doom maps/mods today being just as varied as they were 15 years ago, you're just blind to the issue.

I would never be so immature. What YOU appear to be blind to is that everyone involved in Doom modding does it primarily for fun. If they can do something cool in the process, all well and good, but Melon is right - there is plenty of originality in the Doom modding scene, you're just looking in entirely the wrong places. The solution? Go and play something else. It works for me.

If you insist on ending a discussion on a childish remark: I look forward to your 5 millionth Doom E1M1 remake map.

NOW who's generalizing?

For the record, after two decades I absolutely hate the stock textures and wish there were more community projects like BtSX that use alternate textures exclusively.

Some of the FreeDoom textures aren't bad, can't say the same for the rest of FreeDoom though.

scalliano said:

Duke3D is more flexible out-of-the-box. Doom is relying on third-party engines for its bells and whistles.



Again, read the post. I don't know WHERE you've got this notion from. I'm saying quite the opposite. Just because a feature is available doesn't mean it MUST be used. That is down to the discretion of the modder. For the record, I use dynlights and I'm not the only one. Go and play Legacy Of Suffering.



I would never be so immature. What YOU appear to be blind to is that everyone involved in Doom modding does it primarily for fun. If they can do something cool in the process, all well and good, but Melon is right - there is plenty of originality in the Doom modding scene, you're just looking in entirely the wrong places. The solution? Go and play something else. It works for me.



NOW who's generalizing?

Ofcourse everyone does it for fun, thats the whole point of such a creative undertaking. But when a Doom modder says he's putting Doom stock sprites and/or textures in his mod because he feels his mod HAS to be related to Doom, don't you think thats the wrong attitude to have in any modding scene? People shouldn't feel like they are forced to oblige by the content of the game. If they want to use something entirely different, they should.

Concerning the limitations of the engine, there's always plenty of stuff to mimick in the Doom engine, to me thats one of the key aspects what makes Doom modding fun, and I'm running GZDoom with all the bells and whistles fine on my dual core PC on highest resolution. The performance also depends on the sourceport in question though.

I think having more resources besides Realm667 would be a good sollution, but I've already read that some people are attempting to start something like that.

I think it's fine if you do new things in Doom, but trying to re-create existing games in GZDoom I think is stupid 99% of the time. The key exceptions being unless the re-used elements from those games are exceptionally well coded to be 1:1 replicas of the originals (not some sloppy rip that doesn't behave properly) and everything else is based around it (e.g. no clashing art styles). It would also help if the game they based it off on has a less advanced engine than Doom.

That Return of the Triad TC for instance has the advantage of building more detailed levels than the original ROTT engine could of thanks to GZDoom and the code is very good.

But stuff like Paranoia, that Half-Life TC, based on a game with a better engine, just makes me wish someone would map for Half-Life instead, models turned into sprites and inaccurate behavior are a huge turnoff. Also that kind of architecture is just going to slow GZDoom down on weaker computers when Half-Life itself runs just fine. I think it's completely pointless.

To I feel is a controversial choice is the new ZBlood in the works, since Blood lost its source code and I think there's potential if it is coded excellently, but my quip is it should use the palette of the game in question. Right now it is using Doom's and that makes everything look odd. Unless the author's intention is wide compatibility with custom textures, I think it should have everything custom converted to work with Blood's palette, even if it needs to be remade.

Unloved I feel is another exception in the case of using a number of R667 resources but everything else is so well designed it could pass for its own game due to the brilliant atmosphere. However the ordinary Doom elements in it (monsters/weapons) don't compliment everything else as well IMO, but it wasn't too hard for me replacing things for my own version.

Nevertheless, Classic Doom will always be made and I'll always play it, something different now and again doesn't hurt, and judging by the ZDoom forum's resource subforum there's a great deal of original talent. It is too bad though that virtually nothing gets finished and we're stuck with the aforementioned rips on R667 (save the few OG content available that we've too seen a bazillion times).

But when a Doom modder says he's putting Doom stock sprites and/or textures in his mod because he feels his mod HAS to be related to Doom, don't you think thats the wrong attitude to have in any modding scene?

I don't think I have ever seen that, and that's on Doomworld, the supposed bastion of Doom purity and integrism according to some people.

This feels like the kind of thread I should be arguing in with venom... but I have absolutely no idea what is being discussed :\

What Phml said.

I have never come across an occasion where a modder has opted out of using custom resources because of apparent pressure from the community. It is the modder's decision, and the modder's decision alone. I've seen plenty of occasions where people have pointed out where certain textures/sprites clash, but that is only advice, and it applies to stock resources too. That argument is a non-starter.

Much like talking shit to respected community members.

@Phobus: The argument appears to be "why are so many Doom mods based on Doom?" As far as I'm concerned, the clue is in the question.

Phml said:

I don't think I have ever seen that, and that's on Doomworld, the supposed bastion of Doom purity and integrism according to some people.

I've read it several times on the ZDoom forum, and also on the Skulltag forum when it was online.

I moderated the ZDoom forums for a year or so and I don't remember ever coming across that line of thought. Admittadly I don't keep up with what's going on over there so much these days, but it's a pretty retarded line of reasoning if it has ever been used. You might need to back up that assertation with a link or two.

scalliano said:

What Phml said.

I have never come across an occasion where a modder has opted out of using custom resources because of apparent pressure from the community. It is the modder's decision, and the modder's decision alone. I've seen plenty of occasions where people have pointed out where certain textures/sprites clash, but that is only advice, and it applies to stock resources too. That argument is a non-starter.

Much like talking shit to respected community members.

@Phobus: The argument appears to be "why are so many Doom mods based on Doom?" As far as I'm concerned, the clue is in the question.

Excuse me? I'm "talking shit" to people now? You're trying a little too hard to discredit me now.

I'm always, and I repeat always going to give people my honest opinion. People have pointed out several times in the Doom community that "mapping is an art", so I'm always in my right to critique the art that is presented. If you can't handle that, just look away, but I'm not going to shy away from giving my honest opinion and suggestions on the matter, even if its something that the creator doesn't intend with his mod. I'm working at an art college, and trust me when I say that no artist with that kind of attitude towards critisism is going to make it far there.

In this specific case, if somebody makes a TC that plays in the Quake-universe, and has always ran on more advanced engines with 3D models, using sprites based on models is going to create a visual disconnect, which I feel is a common problem with "weapon-rips" in Doom. Again, if you can't handle this kind of critique, or if you feel I'm not "allowed" to post this kind of comment just because the author is a "respected community member", just click the nice little 'X' button on the top right corner (left for Mac users) and don't look at it. Just don't be all butthurt when you don't get mindlessly showered with praising comments, learn to take some damn critique, even if you don't want to do anything with it.

I seriously hope you were just kidding with your comment, because thats just the laziest and stupidest kind of accusation you can make without understanding the intention behind my post on this certain topic on ZDoom. If I was just trying to "bash" anyone's work, I wouldn't even bother with it in the first place, and I have plenty of other stuff at hand to waste my time on. Any type of comment I make on somebody's work is with the BEST intention in mind, so screw you for trying to brush me off as some kind of forumtroll.

I'm not TRYING to do anything.

I've taken my fair share of creative criticism on these boards, and I take it on the chin, no matter how snarky the comment may be.

Criticism is all well and good, but when the author in question explains their intentions (in this case not using 3D models to maintain software-compatibility) your response is "then you shouldn't be making the mod at all". With that kind of attitude, the accusation of trollposting is difficult to discount. Whether or not your intentions are constructive, with statements like that you just come off as sounding like a spoilt brat who doesn't take kindly to being contradicted.

That is why I'm pulling out of this thread now, because it's only a matter of time before the background turns orange, and I just can't be arsed arguing anymore.

Saying every mod based on the Doom engine is Doom at its core is like saying every car with a Honda floorplan and Honda engine is a Honda at its core. Well, duh. I agree that there is too much emphasis on old school, at the end of the day DTWID plays excellently but looks boring and outdated, but I also don't like Quake or Hexen maps. I like to know I'm still playing Doom.

scalliano said:

I'm not TRYING to do anything.

I've taken my fair share of creative criticism on these boards, and I take it on the chin, no matter how snarky the comment may be.

Criticism is all well and good, but when the author in question explains their intentions (in this case not using 3D models to maintain software-compatibility) your response is "then you shouldn't be making the mod at all". With that kind of attitude, the accusation of trollposting is difficult to discount. Whether or not your intentions are constructive, with statements like that you just come off as sounding like a spoilt brat who doesn't take kindly to being contradicted.

That is why I'm pulling out of this thread now, because it's only a matter of time before the background turns orange, and I just can't be arsed arguing anymore.

My response in that topic was to NeuralStunner's comment of "Why bother? Play Quake". So yes, my comment still stands in reply to that: then don't do a project like that if you DON'T want people to reply like that. If you think thats insulting, fine, but then you obviously have a problem with critisism if your first instinct is to call me out on trolling. You clearly have no idea of the context behind my post, so my advice is to stop trying to put intentions behind my words that aren't there. I don't even know why you brought it up; it has nothing to do with this topic. If anything, YOU are the one distracting from the discussion with this kind of nonesense.

Getting back on topic: I think Hexen maps are still more original then the usual flock of Doom episodes (I'm not saying they are automatically BETTER though), but from what I've seen the usual Hexen mods are in the style of the original game as well, which is okay if you like that. I do think that perhaps Hexen's theme would lend itself great for a more RPG approach to the game, but thats just me.

It kinda seems like you are both trolling each other due to a lack of understanding each other.

But I agree with Jute. After all this time a fresh batch of textures would really be refreshing... If they were any good of course.

Agentbromsnor said:

I think having more resources besides Realm667 would be a good sollution, but I've already read that some people are attempting to start something like that.

This statement has perked my interest. Anyone know anything about this?

NiuHaka said:

It kinda seems like you are both trolling each other due to a lack of understanding each other.

But I agree with Jute. After all this time a fresh batch of textures would really be refreshing... If they were any good of course.



This statement has perked my interest. Anyone know anything about this?

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVg6zocc8sU&

That video is from 2010 though, so maybe the idea never got finished.

*sigh* Breaking all of my own rules here, but never mind ...

As I've already said, I take criticism all the time for my work. I take it in, and go back to the drawing board.

I didn't initially say anything about trolling. My first instinct in this thread was to explain why I disagreed with you, your first instinct was to belittle my response, as you did NeuralStunner's. You're not the only person on these boards who calls it like he sees it, which is why I brought your ZQuake comment up in the first place.

However, if NiuHaka is correct, and this is a misunderstanding, then I put my hands up and apologize. Perhaps some clarification of the issue is in order.

I think you might have simply misunderstood my post on ZDoom. Let me clarify by saying I LIKE ZQuake from what I've seen. Even if the author wouldn't take any type of advice, I would still play it if I had the chance. So when I comment on it, I do this purely to motivate the author because I see potential in the project.

I can understand why you think "then don't make a mod to begin with" would sound insulting in any other case, but in this case I was just making a point about what was said about people who generalise by saying "why bother, play Quake".

I hope this clears things up a bit.

All good. What misled me was the fact that you'd also quoted the part about software-compatibility whereby your reply came across as "go hard or go home". TBH you wouldn't have been the first to take that attitude with a project :P

No harm done, I hope.

Everybody has their own gaming preferences and should play and mod however they want. It's that simple.

Not really arguing one way or the other, but just giving some of my input as a mapper. I usually always use original Doom content to create a Doom-themed mod. This isn't because I feel my mods need to feel like Doom, but because I may get bored with seeing the same levels made with the same textures and listening to the same music, which urges me to want to design new textures and build new levels and load new music. I can honestly admit that I've never been bored with the weapons, or monsters or soundfx, and thus I leave them unchanged. A lot of mappers have shown in the past that it doesn't really matter to them whether or not people like what they're doing, as long as they're doing what's fun for them. I think that's the best way to go.

Agentbromsnor said:
But when a Doom modder says he's putting Doom stock sprites and/or textures in his mod because he feels his mod HAS to be related to Doom, don't you think thats the wrong attitude to have in any modding scene?

That is a form of wanting. One sets oneself certain limits one likes to work in. The story is different if they're demanding someone else's mod must comply with their preferred stricture, or also if they're trying to eradicate these self-restrictions. Also, keep in mind modding has different "schools". In one basic distinction and to varying dergees, some aim more toward modding as an art, or modding for modding's sake, while others may be geared more toward "game play" or competition. Kind of like some music is more for elaboration and experimentation while some is closely tied to dancing and other social activities.

This should address your opening post, as the competitive group is pleased with consistent game behavior and to a lesser degree consistent resource usage, especially in changing anything that alters the core playability. Then of course there are others who also appreciate the "old school" stuff as part of the variety, but the "game play" aspect forms a solid pillar for that stance.

As for my personal stance, I prefer vanilla behavior and like demo recording, speed running and online play. I'm fine with good texture and music changes, and accept minimal visual changes to sprites and sounds when they fit and make sense.

I don't really get bored with most of the stock resources but if I was starting a new project I may decide to use some new ones for freshness. This persuasion is not influenced by any perceived preferences on the forum.

Doom resources in order of the likelihood I will change them, starting with the most likely:

1. Art (mainly TITLEPIC, but possible also INTERPIC and possibly, MDOOM, HUD, BOSSBACK and CREDIT etc for bigger projects).

2. Music (I'm not so bothered about this as I don't mind just turning it off but I know others are fed up of D_RUNNING by now)

3. Textures (nothing wrong with stock textures. I'm not one of the crowd who prefer new ones even if they're of lower quality. New textures do add a stamp of identity to levels but only if they're look good, are used tastefully and ecomically).

4. Monsters (new monsters are cool but only if they are not opposed thematically to the rest of the resources, they are placed with care and restraint and have properties that add to or fill gaps in Doom's gameplay).

5. Sounds/misc (I would never bother with these though I have seen the occasional good example. These elements are not worth bothering unless you're making a TC in my opinion as they more likely to jarr with than add to the atmosphere).

6. Weapons/Power Ups (Admittedly, I'm not one for Weapon Mods so it will just be a personal thing but I've never seen these replaced in such a way that felt like an improvement on the original game. Theoritically, I'm open to it as a possibility but I'm yet to be convinced).

This entire thread is almost like a subtle variant on the common Wads & Mods posts of olds where a guy would come in and start talking about his ideas, what needs to be done, how easy it should be to put it together, and how he basically needs everybody else to do it for him. Now, I could be ignorant but what exactly have you created? What are you doing to lead the way in this new revolution of content?

...but its not that hard to create custom textures. There are plenty of free texture resources available, and spriting (although a timeconsuming task) is pretty easy as well.

So where's the goods? I could use a ton of sprites if you have the time. I never found it so easy.

Just a simple copy (read: torrent) of PhotoShop is enough, or MSPaint which some old-school modders still prefer. If you lack the talent of drawing things yourself with these kind of programs, you can always use photo references to help you draw, or perhaps even take screenshots from a 3D model. I finished one character sprite just two days ago.

These are a couple of tips I'd give.

Also, this might be completely uninteresting to alot of modders, but I also think that making your own textures and sprites gives a better feeling of satisfaction then when you just mindlessly rip something from another game (also depends on the game a bit I guess). Its just a great feeling when you can say that you're responsible for everything you see on the screen.

Not going to contribute much, just wanted to say that I hate anything new in Doom, except for textures. That being said, I`m not a fan of E1 remakes either.

Agentbromsnor said:

Just a simple copy (read: torrent) of PhotoShop is enough, or MSPaint which some old-school modders still prefer. If you lack the talent of drawing things yourself with these kind of programs, you can always use photo references to help you draw, or perhaps even take screenshots from a 3D model. I finished one character sprite just two days ago.

These are a couple of tips I'd give.

Also, this might be completely uninteresting to alot of modders, but I also think that making your own textures and sprites gives a better feeling of satisfaction then when you just mindlessly rip something from another game (also depends on the game a bit I guess). Its just a great feeling when you can say that you're responsible for everything you see on the screen.

Well, to be fare to all those who don't create their own content, it isn't really as simple as you are trying to make it sound. This kind of thing takes talent, skill, experience and a great deal of time to accomplish.

I am a professional designer and I can still attest to the feeling of euphoria you can get by just creating a great map that uses all vanilla or even assets quickly ripped from other games. You have still created something. You just didn't create your own canvas and paints.

I think there is a difference between the way you approach this and the way much of the community approaches this. It seems that you create things for the community while people, such as myself, create things for themselves. You will feel accomplished when someone loves your work. I will feel accomplished when I love my own work. I can see how that can be frustrating for you.