Best WADs to have never won a Cacoward

Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta never won Cacowards? And Glassyman did?*

Unleash the troops! Burn this place to the ground, then salt the earth. Never have I known such a foul travesty.

(* I think)

EDIT: If Mock 2 wins a retrospective Cacoward, I'm gonna start saying "feth" again.

Share this post


Link to post

Glassyman got Worst Wad for his entire Gamarra ... er, "saga".

Share this post


Link to post

I might catch some flack for this, but I'd say ZDCTFMP.WAD is maybe the finest CTF WAD there ever has been. MAP01, MAP04 and MAP08 were staples of the competitive CTF scene for years, MAP02 provides surprisingly high-level gameplay, MAP03 is tons of fun, MAP07 kicked off years of IDL seasons, and MAP09 is notable as maybe the only balanced CTF map with an easily-accessible BFG in it.

Really though, the main argument is that it has a wildly high killer-to-filler ratio. 32in24-4 has maybe 4 good maps, out of 32 that's 12.5%. Arguably the only duds in ZDCTFMP are 5, 6 and 10, but even if you say that only 2-3 are viable, that's still 20%-30%. No CTF WAD has ever even come close to that.

Furthermore, although some may argue that the advent of the competitive community making its own maps could produce a WAD with a higher ratio, I don't think any modern CTF mapper can say that ZDCTFMP hasn't influenced them in some significant (probably negative haha) way. If it hasn't, they need to go play some games on it before they make another map.

Finally I have no idea why Sunder isn't on this list yet. Unfinished?

Share this post


Link to post
Ladna said:

I might catch some flack for this, but I'd say ZDCTFMP.WAD is maybe the finest CTF WAD there ever has been. MAP01, MAP04 and MAP08 were staples of the competitive CTF scene for years, MAP02 provides surprisingly high-level gameplay, MAP03 is tons of fun, MAP07 kicked off years of IDL seasons, and MAP09 is notable as maybe the only balanced CTF map with an easily-accessible BFG in it.

Really though, the main argument is that it has a wildly high killer-to-filler ratio. 32in24-4 has maybe 4 good maps, out of 32 that's 12.5%. Arguably the only duds in ZDCTFMP are 5, 6 and 10, but even if you say that only 2-3 are viable, that's still 20%-30%. No CTF WAD has ever even come close to that.


The issue with multiplayer is that any wad that comes out first for a given gamemode and remains the only wad around for months/years afterwards is going to achieve that regardless of quality, simply because it's the only thing for the elite competitors to play matches on.

There's plenty of dud maps in ZDCTF (around half of the original pack plus many from the sequel packs) and plenty of other decent CTF map packs around, but it's too ingrained in people's minds that ZDCTF is the only thing worth playing.

I don't think any modern CTF mapper can say that ZDCTFMP hasn't influenced them in some significant (probably negative haha) way. If it hasn't, they need to go play some games on it before they make another map.


Which is why we see countless clones of ZDCTF maps in other packs...mappers feel the need to make the players feel "at home" in order to gain popularity etc. (and is without a doubt a negative influence, so no they don't need to play it before making another map :p)

Share this post


Link to post
Ladna said:

Finally I have no idea why Sunder isn't on this list yet. Unfinished?

Not on /idgames.

Share this post


Link to post

Here's another suggestion, dating from '97-'98. Alpha 1 Trilogy by Rob Schweiner, three very large levels for Vanilla Doom II. Excellent architecture and somewhat nonlinear, kind of like what Rick Lipsey (of Polygon Base fame) might make if he had more discipline. ORIGIN (MAP03) is my favorite, but they're all really good if you like roaming levels.

Share this post


Link to post
The Ultimate DooMer said:

The issue with multiplayer is that any wad that comes out first for a given gamemode and remains the only wad around for months/years afterwards is going to achieve that regardless of quality, simply because it's the only thing for the elite competitors to play matches on.


I don't disagree in principle, but I don't think that's how things actually shake out. If you take 1v1 for example, there's only 1 map from doom2.wad (and notably none from doom.wad) in current competitive rotation.

I'm avoiding a huge post about maps because it's a surprisingly complicated subject, but suffice it to say we don't keep playing shitty maps just because they've been around the longest. It basically just doesn't happen, the outcry is too awful, and good maps are so much better than bad ones that bad ones disappear almost instantly.

Which is all to say that if ZDCTFMP maps were actually bad and just riding the wave of "first to the party", we would've traded them out ASAP for ZDCTFMP2/3, ZDUCTF, etc. etc. etc. (there are a lot of CTF WADs).

The Ultimate DooMer said:

There's plenty of dud maps in ZDCTF (around half of the original pack plus many from the sequel packs) and plenty of other decent CTF map packs around, but it's too ingrained in people's minds that ZDCTF is the only thing worth playing.


I won't argue that there are no shitty maps in ZDCTFMP, but I will argue that the ratio is far lower than in any other CTF WAD. It also set the competitive standard in CTF for years, something no other CTF WAD could conceivably do, even were we granted the power to change history. For example, "Exophase" (MAP03) is easy to control if you spam a team's (only) SSG with rockets, therefore it's very important to prevent your opponent from doing that via controlling the RL room, and doubling back when your defense or respawning teammates say "HELP SPAM!". This dynamic basically doesn't exist in 32in24-4, and it's precisely because "Exophase" rewards this and other high-level team cooperation that it was selected as a Masterbowl map.

I also hear the whole, "urgh, this map is SOOOOOO derivative of ZDCTF". I can appreciate the drive to advance the state of mapping, in fact I think it's great as it's brought us some amazing standout maps in 32in24-4 (and other WADs). But we're kidding ourselves if we don't admit that the quest to leave our shameful ZDCTF past behind us has ironically led to some truly shameful maps (I am looking at you, "Burn It With Fire"). There are worse things than imitating great maps, and honestly I think working within the nuance - tweaking an existing map to push it over the edge into a great map - is just as viable a strategy as trying to coming up with a whole new CTF dynamic.

Share this post


Link to post
Ladna said:

I don't disagree in principle, but I don't think that's how things actually shake out. If you take 1v1 for example, there's only 1 map from doom2.wad (and notably none from doom.wad) in current competitive rotation.


I didn't mention 1v1 for that very reason, simply because there was a lot more maps for it (and the "5" in dwango5 does mean something after all), likewise with FFA (a few wads have had popularity cycles).

Which is all to say that if ZDCTFMP maps were actually bad and just riding the wave of "first to the party", we would've traded them out ASAP for ZDCTFMP2/3, ZDUCTF, etc. etc. etc. (there are a lot of CTF WADs).


There wasn't actually any rival packs for 5 months (ZDCTFMP2 was an expansion rather than a rival but still caused a huge uproar when it was added to the servers). And none of the bad maps from pack 1 were dropped from the server rotations until a fair bit after pack 2 came out (and the rest when pack 3 came out), so they were played purely because there was nothing else.

IDL has the right idea with it's yearly "best of" compilations, but they joined the party too late to affect the herd mentality of multiplayer.

-----------------------

Since I should really get back on topic now, how about Heretic's only slaughter wad. (Hordes of Chaos X which I forgot for some reason)

Share this post


Link to post
The Ultimate DooMer said:

IDL has the right idea with it's yearly "best of" compilations, but they joined the party too late to affect the herd mentality of multiplayer.

i beg to differ, players do recognize quality when they play it. if textfiles are true, zductf (the "zdctf killer") was released even before zdctfmp3, so it should be up there on the nostalgia/brainwashing pedestal, but the vast majority of ctf players will tell you it just sucks ass. and by gods, it does.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't play DM anymore, but the MrDoom megawad was pretty cool back in the day. And the Danzig series too. My favorite for DM though was Icarus:AV, or just simply the IWAD maps.

Share this post


Link to post
dew said:

i beg to differ, players do recognize quality when they play it. if textfiles are true, zductf (the "zdctf killer") was released even before zdctfmp3, so it should be up there on the nostalgia/brainwashing pedestal, but the vast majority of ctf players will tell you it just sucks ass. and by gods, it does.


5 months of zdctfmp made that pedestal unreachable before zdctfmp2, as seen by the reaction to it's release. Even if the likes of tlsxctf1, MadCTF (which did have a following in some areas) and UCTF had more good maps in, nothing would've changed. Same as now, even if players recognise quality (plenty of it around), the maps won't get played.

Share this post


Link to post

The vast majority of CTF maps are trash actually, there are maybe 50 acceptable maps tops. 50 sounds like a big number, but when you consider all the CTF WADs:

Crazy CTF
Mad CTF
32in24-4
32in24-7
Chaoscore
Ultra CTF (ZDUCTF)
Epic CTF
BP CTF
Odamex CTF
SmartCTF
ZD CTF

...it's really not that many.

Finally it's worth saying multiplayer CTF is nearly dead. IDL is basically the last bastion, so to say that it's too late to influence the CTF scene is pretty wrong, it is the CTF scene at this point.

Share this post


Link to post

The only competitive CTF scene that is left outside of the IDL is on skulltag. The wad they play everyday? IDL2012.

Share this post


Link to post

It's also worth nothing that some of the most popular maps from the idl wad likely come from 32in24-4. Maps 14 and 31 come to mind instantly. That wad had a few other great maps like 12, 13 and 17 too (their idl slots). I have to be forgetting at least another?

I think in terms of sheer quantity of good maps in the wad, not by ratio, 32in24-4 might beat out zdctfmp1. I also think some of the packs that came out after zdctfmp made the mistake of trying to over complicate things with many lifts/doors/etc. I think part of zdctfmp1's appeal is its sheer simplicity. There was no precedent and so we all just made straight forward maps and they all work for the most part (even maps 05/06 were wildly popular for a long time).

Share this post


Link to post
savagegrant said:

How Not to Be Seen! | Wills Hines | Mockaward | 2006 | Doom II | Vanilla

Just noticed this. HNTBS will not work in vanilla; it's a scripted machinima piece for ZDoom.

And also, this:

savagegrant said:

Icebound | Christopher Lutz | 2011 | Heretic | Boom-compatible port

Copy/paste mistake in the text file. It's for limit-removing Heretic ports. Ignore all the stuff about it working in PrBoom 2.4.8.1, it's nonsense (there never was such a version number, and of course PrBoom never had any sort of Heretic support).

And one other thing:

savagegrant said:

No Rest for the Living | Nerve Software | 2010 | Doom II | Vanilla

It's for limit-removing, actually. The Xbox 360 port has increased limits. (And special coding to account for Doom's lack of MAPINFO support.)

Share this post


Link to post

...as well as mentioned by Memfis in another thread, Brotherhood of Ruin is Boom-compat: deep water, boom elevators, boom specials (e.g. secret sectors with another feature added, NOT found by DB2 if you look for sector type 9, etc.)

Share this post


Link to post
D_GARG said:

,,,does TC's count?

Of course they do.

Share this post


Link to post

The Ultimate DooMer said:
There's plenty of dud maps in ZDCTF (around half of the original pack plus many from the sequel packs) and plenty of other decent CTF map packs around, but it's too ingrained in people's minds that ZDCTF is the only thing worth playing.

I think you're letting yourself get carried away by your tastes. "Seems bad, many keep playing it, they must be brainwashed." I'd agree with the guys that there's a degree of habit but enough quality goo to hold it together and repel replacements on the medium or long term.

But also, habit is often derided but it's important, if not essential, in pub servers. Only more intensive players can really be selective and picky about levels, and only so much, because if you only play so often and don't have some extra organization (such as the IDL), familiarizing yourself with maps that change often is just discouraging.

Share this post


Link to post

WOAH!!!!!! Demon Eclipse didnt win a cacoward? the fuck is this shit?

Gotta be the one of the best doom wads i have ever played. Its a shame Eriance canceled the project.

Has new sprites for each weapon plus episode 2 and beyond has brand new from scratch hell based weapons. Seriously that wad took alot of effort to create.

Share this post


Link to post

Just going to add Vae Victus and Beyond Revival, as well as second End Game. All 3 had fantastic level design and were better than some of the wads that eventually got picked.

Share this post


Link to post

Question: do any of these probably awesome Doom or Doom 2 WADs have some kind of melee mod or rebalancing to make it more lively and/or fun? (not that it isn't fun punching everything already, but melee in doom is either monsters that can be cheesed easily with it or monsters that rip you to shreds if you use it. I had an idea that it would be cool to see a melee system that was reasonably challenging).

I specified "Doom or Doom 2" because I have played Hexen and its melee is fun but still just different flavors of the Doomguy punch with monsters that either go down like a cakewalk or monsters that make you wish you picked a different class.

Edit: I just realized the thread I made was in the same forum as this thread here. I couldn't find this thread again so I ran a search and didn't check to see what forum it was in >_<

Share this post


Link to post

Now that the 2012 Cacowards are out, this thread needs an update to include the winners, plus the ones that didn't quite make the cut. Any chance savagegrant is still alive?

Share this post


Link to post
This topic is now closed to further replies.