Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

MAP20...

What the hell?!

I can safely say, this map is going to need a hell of a lot of work until it's up to scratch.

I found homs, random floating middle textures, and really nasty texturing. Some of the vertical heights are a bit too high too.
And, its over the drawseg limit.

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_bruce_ said:

I hope it hasn't to be finished in 8 days - that would be highly unlikely.
Played your latest edition and I think it seems complete to me. If you feel like it you could increase the arachnotron area a little bit in size to make it feel less urgent and more doable.


I only want to see progress before the 31st. You're safe, don't worry.

My catacombs are far from complete though. Not sure about resizing that whole area though. I could extend it slightly on the x-axis, so the last textures looked OK. That means I could space out those columns slightly too. I think I'm about 40-50% done with it so far.

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_bruce_ said:

I hope it hasn't to be finished in 8 days - that would be highly unlikely.
Played your latest edition and I think it seems complete to me. If you feel like it you could increase the arachnotron area a little bit in size to make it feel less urgent and more doable.


Don't worry about that deadline, that is only for the 3 maps where we have heard no word from. Actually I have started casually making a map of factory theme as a back up.
Erm.... Map20, Well I found out why the world didn't end two days ago. It appears I have time travelled to 1994.
I found commander keen sir :D

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Joseph Lord said:

Nope. You made visplanes worse. It went to 170+ in DB2.

@Cannonball: KEEN?!?
I was born in 1997, so 1994 is a brand-new experience for me. -Looks around- Wow...I prefer 2012 :S

Also, GreyGhost apparently saw my PM, so if he doesn't reclaim MAP12, I'd hold on to that Factory.
Just make sure you end it with a Helipad, to keep Glen happy.

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I noclipped around and found a commander keen.
1994, just put that into the idgames archives and download a few wads, or search thegreenherring, rybacksdsda or deimoscomablack on youtube as they have playthroughs of 1994 wads from time to time.

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cannonball said:

I noclipped around and found a commander keen.
1994, just put that into the idgames archives and download a few wads, or search thegreenherring, rybacksdsda or deimoscomablack on youtube as they have playthroughs of 1994 wads from time to time.


I played small parts of 2 1994 wads.

I've seen enough, thank you. So PWAD wise, I didn't miss much. Apart from Memento Mori (II), that seems to be liked quite a bit.

Why the hell is there a Keen in MAP20...

EDIT: @Joseph Lord, I can't explain this very well but VISPLANES are the number of flats (floors and ceilings) that the player can see at any one time. You can't have more than 128.

I'll leave DRAWSEGS to someone who knows exactly what they're talking about, as if they know everything about the Doom engine. (Gez)

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Eris Falling said:

MAP20...

What the hell?!

I can safely say, this map is going to need a hell of a lot of work until it's up to scratch.

I found homs, random floating middle textures, and really nasty texturing. Some of the vertical heights are a bit too high too.
And, its over the drawseg limit.


there's only one hom i found

and the floating hell switches are for purpose

and what drawseg you talking about

and whats wrong with heights? they're too high?

no problem i'll lower them

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Joseph Lord said:

Ok. What are the visplanes and drawsegs


At a very basic level, visplanes are the number of different floor/ceiling/light/height combinations visible, and while segs are the number of individual wall sections visible. Vanilla doom limits the former to 128 (it crashes if you go over), and the latter to 256 (it stops drawing walls past the 256th, creating HOMs)

More info at:

http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_rendering_engine

In essence, you need to remove some detail, and/or add some solid objects (sectors that are all 1-sided lines) as they reduce the field of view, and therefore the number of visplanes and segs to be drawn.

Having looked around the level, you've got far too much detail. Like the lighting here:



and the brick trim on staircase here:



You've also got a lot of windows into area after area, forcing the engine to render massive numbers of walls and flats.

Stuff like this is fine in limit-removing ports, but will blow vanilla Doom's engine to pieces.

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Joseph Lord said:

Ok. What are the visplanes and drawsegs

Hate to be the hardass here, but if you're asking this, you're probably not yet ready for vanilla mapping. It may sound strange since it's seemingly the most "basic" mapstyle there is, but vanilla limits are something you must keep in mind while designing the map, else you're never going to get it to work properly. Judging from your responses in this thread, it doesn't even seem like you've even tested your map in vanilla or chocolate Doom at all, despite vanilla compatibility being clearly listed as one of the project's goals.

Visplane explorer has been much-mentioned as of late, but there's no real substitute for Chocorenderlimits, which gives you an accurate count of how many planes/segs are visible onscreen at any given moment. It's your best friend when mapping vanilla, and I'd even go as far as saying that if you're not using it these days, you're doing it wrong. :P

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joe-ilya said:

1) and the floating hell switches are for purpose

2) and what drawseg you talking about


1) Well they look awful. I can't put it much different than that.

2) http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2871/30969642.png
The Doom engine is drawing too many things at once (although I really have no idea how). So you'll need to delete something.

You're right about that HOM though. Not sure what is causing that.

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Map20
Has this ever been tested in chocolate-doom? The first door doesn't render properly (it's 112 high, so it can't tile properly, and the sector is 128, so you get the tuttifrutti edging). Also, when I go to the HOM door and try to open it, the game crashes.

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The vanilla limits are numerous and surprising. Everyone attempting to map for vanilla limitations ought to read this article. While the stars like visplanes and drawsegs are well known, other limits such as no more than 64 scrolling linedefs are still surprising veteran mappers sometimes.

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Gez said:

While the stars like visplanes and drawsegs are well known, other limits such as no more than 64 scrolling linedefs are still surprising veteran mappers sometimes.


Oh I won't forget that one in a hurry -_-

Since I've been working a bit on it recently, I was thinking of changing MAP07's music to AHGEEZ.MID from DN3D E1L7, for 2 reasons.

1) To make it slightly more fast-paced
2) I'm not a major fan of D_SHAWN [/shock] and I don't feel it suits the map anyway.

Thoughts?

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Map 21 final
http://filesmelt.com/dl/cbnirvana_final.wad
Did scifista42's suggestion to the pain elemental room, increased the length of the dummy rom and added extra teleport lines.

Once Josephlord vanillafies his map, it should be ok, though I will have to breakdown the good and bad gameplay mechanics of it. But that should be less time consuming.
Map20 - umm. I don't quite know how to proceed with this at the moment. I for one are very happy to go through the basics with someone about mapping to help get things going and I'm sure others are too. I don't want you to take this the wrong way joe-ilya, but this map is very very bad. I made 1994 related jokes earlier but this is what this map is. This needs a lot of work in pretty much every department.
Oh just as no one has said this yet. You placed two masterminds on a platform together..... this is going to end one way and it's a shespider bitch fight which is completely pointless.

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cannonball said:

Map20 - this map is very very bad


This is definitely also a problem with the level, IMO, though I guess the final call on what's acceptable it up to Eris.

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@scifista42 - THX for your review... sweet music in my ears.



Regarding Map21,
Cannonball, when the player goes up this path in full swing the abrupt ending and the resulting fall may be kinda disheartening.

http://i.imgur.com/8FxJO.gif

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Capellan said:

This is definitely also a problem with the level, IMO, though I guess the final call on what's acceptable it up to Eris.


No I agree with what Cannonball said. I don't want Joe-ilya to take this the wrong way either, but it's like he's Sandy Petersen in disguise.


Added Version 5 of MAP11 to OP, and Cannonball, can you possibly do a mediafire upload for Nirvana? My alarms went off when I tried going to that site.
Also I sent second PM's to GreyGhost, Hellbent, and ShadesMaster. If they haven't replied by the deadline, MAP12 will be transferred to Cannonball, and 16 and 24 will be up for any takers.

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filesmelt is fine eris falling. I had to change because well mediafire won't let me upload there now (they want money :P). Seems a trend with that site as many other people can't upload there either any more. If it is a problem I shall explore other file sharing sites, it's just the one I'm used to now as many people in other projects use this site.
@Bruce, hmm well I have never been able to not trigger the raising of that sector, I will check again though just in case.
Edit - It just hit me that you were talking about the end of the "staircase" Silly me and I can't even blame it on too much alcohol. I will sort this.

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cannonball said:

filesmelt is fine eris falling. I had to change because well mediafire won't let me upload there now (they want money :P). Seems a trend with that site as many other people can't upload there either any more. If it is a problem I shall explore other file sharing sites, it's just the one I'm used to now as many people in other projects use this site.
@Bruce, hmm well I have never been able to not trigger the raising of that sector, I will check again though just in case.


Interestingly, the WAD downloaded, THEN I got the anti-virus message. heh.
OK, I've changed the OP.

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Because I like doing screenshots.

Once you beat the spiders, you try to escape by hitting that switch. But reinforcements arrive.
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1720/screenshotdoom201212241.png

Also, that inverted cross with the heavy lighting detail that I showed in my last screenshot is now the teleporter to the spider room. Once you hit the aforementioned switch, you can come back to the cross, only to find it's...somewhat lost it's power.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1720/screenshotdoom201212241.png

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Eris Falling said:

1) Well they look awful. I can't put it much different than that.
2) http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2871/30969642.png
The Doom engine is drawing too many things at once (although I really have no idea how). So you'll need to delete something.

You're right about that HOM though. Not sure what is causing that.

i deleted alot of empty useless space
and i did the wall with a fancy wack-a-mole crack
http://s13.postimage.org/kkkvbb97b/Screenshot_Doom_20121224_173852.png
i made the nirvana entrance more detailed : waterjump (howerver it's called)
and also much smaller
fixed some more homs
smallerend the hights
now it's time for monsters , ammution , power ups , deathmatch starts and supports. :D

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joe-ilya said:

and i did the wall with a fancy wack-a-mole crack etc.


This is a major problem in your map and a reason for exceeding limits. You have a lot of large areas and you like to do high detail in tiny areas of this space. You are focusing on the microscopic details and leaving the macroscopic ones to one side, lead to ugly/bland room and still have problems with vanilla limits.
Anyway you are fixing this so hopefully things will be better.
Hope everyone is having a good Christmas day. Back to a game of scrabble and drinking alcohol :)

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I download chocorenderlimit, finally the idea to make a vanilla map without it is imposible, get it in my mind. But now i dont know how test my map with it. The message "Dont Iwad found" appears when i try. I dont know why. i have doom2 iwad

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Joseph Lord said:

I download chocorenderlimit, finally the idea to make a vanilla map without it is imposible, get it in my mind. But now i dont know how test my map with it. The message "Dont Iwad found" appears when i try. I dont know why. i have doom2 iwad


You'll need to put DOOM2.WAD in your chocorenderlimits folder.

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joe-ilya said:

now it's time for monsters , ammution , power ups , deathmatch starts and supports. :D


The last version of your level had several issues:

* I have no idea how you're reflecting the level title of "Gotcha!"
* HOMs caused by excess segs
* it crashed when I tried to open the door near that missing wall you just fixed
* it looks terrible - teleporters that aren't aligned to the grid, random texture choices, massive rooms all of light brown textures that blur into each other
* what little I played of it seemed like pretty uninspired gameplay

Eris has indicated that the last version of the map was not acceptable for the project. We can help you try to get it to a usable position, but we need to see what you're doing to help you with that.

Can you give an answer for the first dot point above, and also post a link to the new version so we can look at it?

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