Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

I don't know if these are good solutions, but few pillars can break the VPO.

Also, this area too can be a problem. It's right behind that arrow where it happens.

Here's the latest version of map 13:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/lpb2pbqysp8404k/gzMap13%20b2.WAD

Its all the same, just a few barely noticable cosmetic tweaks since the last one.

Another attempt at VPO fix of MAP07: http://speedy.sh/q9b52/dedsimpl-dec8-2013.zip

I've toyed around it for quite a time, and although there are still places with alarmingly high VP count, I hope the limit won't exceed. The worst offender is the place in central arena shown in Corsair's screenshot (that with the arrow). The overflow tends to occur there at a rare constellation of random light-blinking effects - I think I fixed it, but can't confirm for sure. Would it be eventually acceptable if it proves to be untriggerable without an intention and without the help of Chocorenderlimits statistics?

Again I'm noting that I already totally resigned on aesthetics, so some of the changes might have made the map look even worse than it was.

Cool, I had a quick blast through it and couldn't find any problems.

What are we waiting for, again? I think mouldy should go ahead and apply all the fixes he offered to apply to the maps that need them. I could understand waiting for my map to become playable, but now it's just getting sad. Let's wrap it up and release this bitch! (A beta of this bitch, to be precise, I guess).

Think all that is left is some minor tweaks to map 16, I was going to sort them out myself but joseph lord appeared and said he was going to do something to his maps. I don't like to meddle with stuff that someone is working on but map 16 is already the work of 2 different people so I may as well just fix the problems and call it finished.

Joseph mentioned updating 23 and 27, i figured 23 was done, and 27 was too barring a minor issue, although I'm not sure how much playtesting 27 has had from other folks (its bastard hard in places).

edit: testing map 16 in choc doom reveals some heavy vpos in one section. I'm going to try and fix them along with the other stuff. If Joseph is reading this then don't worry about map 16 I'll sort it out, but you might need to check your other maps for vpos if you haven't already.

If we can get these done over the coming week, that gives me Christmas to compile it.

If we can get these done over the coming week,

...I will eat my hat (but not film any evidence, obviously).

Ok here is map 16 with problems fixed:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/8jwawvf6j7ttp1o/map16-dec12.wad

but let me know if you find any more. I had to change a couple of bits to fix vpo's and while I was at it I added a teleport after the yellow key switch to reduce confusion/backtracking. Other than that I left the gameplay as it was.

So apart from joseph tinkering with 23/27 this is everything done. If you don't want to wait for him then 23 is done anyway as far as I know, and 27 just needs a room fixed (though it could do with some auto-alignment as well in places). Having said that, I just checked 27 in choc doom and there are vpos in the exit room, so might have to check those 2 maps some more.

mouldy said:

Ok here is map 16 with problems fixed:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/8jwawvf6j7ttp1o/map16-dec12.wad

Frutties right at the start, but that's the slightest, otherwise there were no problems. I'm even surprised the prison part didn't overflow with the doors open.

The aesthetics and gameplay both seem quite unpolished though, search for the keys isn't very intuitive and some encounters are just a cruel mess (final fight) - but that's another thing, which I had to say anyway.

scifista42 said:

Frutties right at the start, but that's the slightest, otherwise there were no problems. I'm even surprised the prison part didn't overflow with the doors open.

The aesthetics and gameplay both seem quite unpolished though, search for the keys isn't very intuitive and some encounters are just a cruel mess (final fight) - but that's another thing, which I had to say anyway.

cool, cheers. Funny I missed those.

But yeah, regarding visuals and gameplay, at this stage I'm happy to let some rough edges slide just to call the map done. We don't see much of joseph around here so feedback on his maps tends to blow away in the wind anyway.

Just wanted to mention that I quite like map16 visually. It's not like Doom is never crude, but in this case I'll be the first to claim it's artistic expression because it freaking FITS. At least I was nodding the whole time while I was kinda running around looking through to see it for myself after there was a bit of a disagreement on how it doesn't represent suburbs. Can't say much about the gameplay but still, I say even if it's crude that has it's own charm too. I don't think major modifications should be made, from the sounds of it even that one new teleporter is something I'd very much disagree with. I hope it doesn't take you straight from the key to the door.

Antroid said:

from the sounds of it even that one new teleporter is something I'd very much disagree with. I hope it doesn't take you straight from the key to the door.

Yeah that might be up for debate, I'm basically saving people from searching through an empty map to find out what a switch did. The switch lowers a platform in a room miles away with the yellow key on it, but there is no way of knowing that. So now it also opens a teleport to the room that the yellow key is in.

Its a pretty rough fix for what I see as a fundamental flaw in the map, but if people disagree then I don't mind taking the teleporter out.

I would suggest changing that teleporter to some kind of indication that it's the yellow key that is made accessible. Perhaps reveal something textured with the yellow key indicator? I think that's a hint which isn't really changing much, but a teleporter like that is a blatant messing with the map's intended progression. Personally I kinda dislike when maps are laid out in such a way that you don't have to look for anything and are led and immidiately dropped everywhere (a better example than this case would be putting a key in such a place that the only locked door is immidiately there when you pick it up. Makes having a key pointless). In the original doom if you found a key, you sometimes had to remember where the door was and look for it. In here it's kind of a similiar situation. Such a shortcut is equivalent to just putting the key where the switch is. It removes an intended element of search from the map, something that was often found in the original games.

I'm firmly against messing with someone else's maps on that level.

To avoid such complications in the near future, that is what the "press swich, luk outta windo, C ya nou K iz accessibul" method is for. If you really want to prolong the progression of getting a key, do some roundabouts around the area.

Antroid said:

I would suggest changing that teleporter to some kind of indication that it's the yellow key that is made accessible. Perhaps reveal something textured with the yellow key indicator? I think that's a hint which isn't really changing much, but a teleporter like that is a blatant messing with the map's intended progression. Personally I kinda dislike when maps are laid out in such a way that you don't have to look for anything and are led and immidiately dropped everywhere (a better example than this case would be putting a key in such a place that the only locked door is immidiately there when you pick it up. Makes having a key pointless). In the original doom if you found a key, you sometimes had to remember where the door was and look for it. In here it's kind of a similiar situation. Such a shortcut is equivalent to just putting the key where the switch is. It removes an intended element of search from the map, something that was often found in the original games.

I'm firmly against messing with someone else's maps on that level.

What you are forgetting is that its possible to find the switch without even knowing about the yellow key. Intended progression goes out the window when that happens. Just like in his map 27 its possible to get locked in a room because you didn't get the blue key - if your map is non-linear you have to consider these things. In an ideal world like Cell suggests, you'd idiot-proof it with a window or a route that takes you back to that area, but then in an ideal world I wouldn't have to be fixing this guy's maps. As it is I've already had to wall off a part of his intended progression just to avoid vpos.

Cell said:

To avoid such complications in the near future, that is what the "press swich, luk outta windo, C ya nou K iz accessibul" method is for. If you really want to prolong the progression of getting a key, do some roundabouts around the area.

Or, even better, you can have exactly one obstacle which is obviously removable and one switch to find; making it obvious what it does.

mouldy said:

What you are forgetting is that its possible to find the switch without even knowing about the yellow key. Intended progression goes out the window when that happens.

Not really. If you happen to push a switch before exploring the rest of the available territory, you know that you've opened something you haven't seen yet. It doesn't really affect anything at all. You just explore everything smoothly after pushing the switch and don't need to know exactly how it allowed you to do so.

Getting stuck is another thing, but on this particular issue I simply do not agree. If there are other switches in the accessible area that do other things then I say exchange the teleport for a yellow key marker-painted hint, and if it's the only switch and the key is the only inaccessible (not locked) thing in the area, even the hint is not needed. It's not "fixing", it's adding extra convenience the need for which is strictly a matter of taste.

Antroid said:

Not really. If you happen to push a switch before exploring the rest of the available territory, you know that you've opened something you haven't seen yet. It doesn't really affect anything at all. You just explore everything smoothly after pushing the switch and don't need to know exactly how it allowed you to do so.

That is just bad design. The route leading up to the switch consists of pressing switches to access nearby rooms, so naturally pressing the final switch will intuitively open something nearby. It doesn't. the yellow key is in a completely different area, the whole map is littered with false doors, and "exploring everything smoothly" means literally searching the whole map. I did consider adding yellow key marker as a hint but figured that may confuse people into thinking you need the yellow key for the switch.

Antroid said:

It's not "fixing", it's adding extra convenience the need for which is strictly a matter of taste.

If you allow bad design as being a matter of taste then anything goes. Its extra convenience giving a player a rocket launcher to fight a cyberdemon, but I'm sure with enough bullets you could do it with just a pistol. If you want a good example of taste over convenience then have a go at josephs original version of map 24.

I don't mind changing it of course, but I should probably get some opinions from people who have played the map.

What I was talking about is not bad design. Making everything as simple and streamlined as possible is not Good Design by default. In fact, that's very much a matter of opinion, because I personally am always annoyed when a map treats me like a goldfish. I quite like to have to search an entire map sometimes, finding a key in some random side room. Sure, if there's a ton of other switches, it's not ideal. However, it should be perfectly easy to make the switch reveal some DOORYEL, therefore making it impossible for anyone to be confused without resorting to a cheap-ass teleporter. If you wanna do metaphors, a teleporter like that instead of a hint is like giving the player a BFG with full ammo on E1M8.

mouldy said:

I don't mind changing it of course, but I should probably get some opinions from people who have played the map.

I'm up for playtesting this map in any of it's iterations, if it would help; however please point me to the right file(s) so I don't end up trying to give feedback on something super-outdated, like what I did before.

Just played the latest map16 vesrion up to the yellow key. Quite a map, I actually really enjoyed it up to that point, just didn't want to see the entire thing before a real playthrough. Looks incredibly interesting though, pretty awesome visually in it's own way. The plasmagun ambush was nice and I had to finish an archvile with a chainsaw at one point, which was cool as heck. I can see how that portion of the map can get confusing, but I still say that the teleporter should be replaced with a DOORYEL-revealing hint.

Antroid said:

What I was talking about is not bad design. Making everything as simple and streamlined as possible is not Good Design by default. In fact, that's very much a matter of opinion, because I personally am always annoyed when a map treats me like a goldfish. I quite like to have to search an entire map sometimes, finding a key in some random side room. Sure, if there's a ton of other switches, it's not ideal. However, it should be perfectly easy to make the switch reveal some DOORYEL, therefore making it impossible for anyone to be confused without resorting to a cheap-ass teleporter. If you wanna do metaphors, a teleporter like that instead of a hint is like giving the player a BFG with full ammo on E1M8.

This isn't a case of making it as streamlined as possible, its a case of making it intuitive. There is still a whole load of backtracking and exploration in this map even with the teleport. Joseph even included a teleport himself after the blue key. For "convenience" I guess.

Unfortunately since you didn't playtest the original version you will have no way of judging this now, but here is a new version without the teleport:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/zb1v5clmqx4acl7/map16-dec13.wad
I've added a yellow key signpost so hopefully that will be enough of a clue.

The shortcuty-thing you added in place of the teleporter is pretty neat. I was going to say that it still allows the player to escape the building without killing anyone who he might've bypassed, but then I realized that I was mixing that building up with another (which had a ton of barons and stuff in it) and there's barely anyone there and possibly noone who can be bypassed reasonably. If I was "fixing the map up" I wouldn't have added it, but I won't protest whatsoever.

I think what you have in this version is the best, least intrusive solution. Thanks for considering my opinion ;)

Antroid said:

The shortcuty-thing you added in place of the teleporter is pretty neat. I was going to say that it still allows the player to escape the building without killing anyone who he might've bypassed, but then I realized that I was mixing that building up with another (which had a ton of barons and stuff in it) and there's barely anyone there and possibly noone who can be bypassed reasonably. If I was "fixing the map up" I wouldn't have added it, but I won't protest whatsoever.

I think what you have in this version is the best, least intrusive solution. Thanks for considering my opinion ;)

In the original version you could just jump down to the ground, unfortunately I had to put a wall there to stop vpos. The shortcuty thing just takes you to where you would have landed.

You can compare with the original version here if you like:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/4fxctqrofb710c2/map16.wad

Oh, okay. That's kinda interesting. You should go guest-commentate when hipp0cat LPs this thing, sounds like you'd have a bunch of trivia about a bunch of maps that you had to touch one way or another :p

This map has certainly been on quite a journey in its lifetime.

plums said:

I'm up for playtesting this map in any of it's iterations, if it would help; however please point me to the right file(s) so I don't end up trying to give feedback on something super-outdated, like what I did before.

cheers old bean, this is the latest version to test:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/zb1v5clmqx4acl7/map16-dec13.wad

It still has its strengths and its weaknesses but the main thing is that it all works, looks passable and doesn't crash in vanilla

Great, I'll give it a go in Chocolate Doom later tonight.

mouldy, is that the same as the previous map16.dec13 or is it a new one?

Its the same one, sorry to be confusing

It's fine, I only asked because the links were different, just wanted to make sure :)