Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

cannonball said:

Oh that's your issue. Ok that can be easy to fix. I must admit to liking mouldy's vision of it (tekgreen works well I think)


I did a couple more adjustments to it, seems those midtexture struts joining the body to the skiis aren't even needed when you only see it from that angle, so I tried a lighter texture

Seems like you can get away with adding details like the windows and keep within the vanilla limits too.

Here's the wad file if you wanted to have a look
http://www.mediafire.com/download/sich8ks6w5rc98l/chopper.wad

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Oh yeah I remember now. I received this PM from Jaws in Space last week, concerning multiplayer starts. While MP isn't our target, there should at least be starts present, but I didn't respond to the message because I wasn't sure exactly on what should be done

Hello,

I was looking through the latest version of the wad the other day & noticed that 
some of the maps do not have multiplayer starts.

Maps 1, 6, 10, & 26 don't have coop starts, which I think is a fairly important addition.

Maps 1, 4, 6 ,8 ,9, 10, 16, 17, 18, 24, 26, 27, 29, & 31 don't have
 deathmatch starts, while not as important since this wad isn't 
specifically designed for deathmatch, I still think it is important to
 add starts nonetheless since some people enjoy deathmatch on all 
mapsets whether they are specifically designed for it or not.

Now since I completely failed at providing as map 27 awhile back, I
 would volunteer to do this for you. I've had some experience with 
this before, I've added multiplayer throughout Nova The Birth & 
Switcheroom. Since you are so far along with testing my only edits
 would be adding the starts, except on maps 1, 6, 10, & 24 where I 
would add other things as well since they are not designed for 
multiplayer at all.

If you would like me to do this all I need is the beta 9 & I could
 have all this done within a day. If you don't want me to do this
 then that's fine too, I just thought I'd offer.
Personally, I think it's best to just have the starts, and not modify any of the maps. 6 is actually pretty funny in MP.

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Eris Falling said:

Personally, I think it's best to just have the starts, and not modify any of the maps. 6 is actually pretty funny in MP.

I agree - let's just add starts and not tinker with people's map's balance or anything, when it's not one's own map. None of the maps has game breaking problems in MP, right? Then it should be acceptable.

I've seen MAP06 in action in MP, well it's broken, but playable. :)

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If jaws can say what he wants to add to those maps then we'd be in a better position to judge, it might just be some multiplayer weapons/ammo, which wouldn't effect the balance for single player. If the maps in question weren't designed for multiplayer (3 of them don't even have co op starts) then I'm assuming the map makers won't be too bothered if it wont effect SP. Also its only 4 maps in question and 3 mappers so shouldn't be too much hassle to get the their say on the matter.

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@mouldy: Hehe, that 'copter actually looks pretty cool. Sector vehicles are generally super-cheesy but I like this one, for what it's worth. :P

Regarding multiplayer starts, co-op is a definite-yes, DM is... eh. There are most certainly going to maps that will never ever work in DM, and it's quite likely that this particular subset might translate to "All of them," depending. :P

If folks want to create a little self-contained DM area outside the map like people used to do "back in the day," that might be kinda neat, but even then it's probably a bit fruitless since this isn't a DM-centric project.

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I think quite a number of maps will just be broken in DM. I dunno if other people are more careful about stuff like this, but in my maps if you approach some places from the opposite side (which you can't do in SP) things will be bad, like you'll fall into unraised monster pits and crap like that. Probably not in 24, but definitely some of that in 04 and 29.

My position on the issue is that if you can just state something to the effect of "DM: just starts, many maps might be completely unusable, try any at your own risk" somewhere in the readme then I guess it's fine to add the starts. So people know beforehand that they shouldn't expect functional DM in these levels, but they could have some stupid fun if they decide to for some reason.

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Every map I make is, in theory, multi-player ready. Doors/moving walls can be triggered from either side to prevent lockouts. Additional weapons and monsters for coop/deathmatch.
In a few occasions playing in multi-player mode adds small sections to a map which are triggered by spawned players and enhance the flow of a map/inter-connectivity.
This of course presents just a very basic addendum since I can't test in multi- player besides running around and living through imaginary situations... "running from evil" literally.

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mouldy said:

I did a couple more adjustments to it, seems those midtexture struts joining the body to the skiis aren't even needed when you only see it from that angle, so I tried a lighter texture

Seems like you can get away with adding details like the windows and keep within the vanilla limits too.

Here's the wad file if you wanted to have a look
http://www.mediafire.com/download/sich8ks6w5rc98l/chopper.wad

I really like that, good job. I would say that it's job done for this map. For credits just add a thanks to Mouldy for upgrading Doomguy's travel from Ryanair to Virgin Atlantic :P
DM stuff, meh I implemented starts and placed some weapons, but that's about it.

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Da Werecat said:


heh, you could spend the rest of your life finding dodgy stuff in joseph's maps. Regarding the last pic from map 28... I have to admit those bits can be annoying but they are necessary to avoid vpos in that room. I wouldn't recommend fighting in there anyway, its full of horrible monsters.

To add to the deathmatch debate, its not really worth spending too much time on it as there are already wads out there specifically designed for deathmatch, and this certainly isn't one of them. I think i added DM starts to my maps and maybe some extra weapons, beyond that, as cannonball says, meh.

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mouldy said:

Regarding the last pic from map 28... I have to admit those bits can be annoying but they are necessary to avoid vpos in that room.

Oh, I see.

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I think I still need to do some MP balancing in map08 but I've literally not had the energy to open Doombuilder 2 over the past 3 weeks, I may try and get it sorted out over my Monday off work. I even have a little checklist lying around somewhere for all 3 of my submissions, to fully complete balancing, automap, and multiplayer stuff.

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All maps except MAP08 and 17 now have Co-op and DM starts. The DM starts are rather randomly placed, and I have no idea if they'll work, but I will put a "use at own risk" as Antroid suggested.

And no Antroid, none of the DM starts are actually P1s :P

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I could go through map 27 one last time to fix dodgy textures if you like, do you have the latest version of it?

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Sure, here you go

Also, funny story behind the HOM on MAP22 that Werecat reported.
I have a habit of testing basically every single time I do something, this would include fixing the issue that previously stood in that area.

All I needed to do was re-tag the door to go with a switch, but it needed to be a lowering floor instead.
Surely such a small change doesn't need testing? Time to break out of this habit, it's obviously going to work.

*sigh*

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Looks like you already fixed all the problems with map27, I found a few more minor things and made it so if you accidentally jump over the red key you can go back up the blood steps to get it.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/8462px66s4v6qpm/d2ino27-30may2.wad

I also took the liberty of changing this bit back to being jagged:
http://i.imgur.com/byLSvxL.png
but keeping the smoothed impassable line so it looks how it was but wont impede movement. I guess i just liked how it looked broken, gives that edge a sense of danger even though you can't fall off. Feel free to disagree though.

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I'd simply place a teleporter in the lava pit, but that would probably be too big of a change.

The whole area is annoying, by the way, with all these fake walls and teleporting cyber. It's a bit too late to seriously redesign it though, and I wasn't going to insist anyway.

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Yeah, that whole map is so full of stuff I would never put in any of my maps. This being more of an artistic project I'm prepared to accept some design quirks though, but it is a shame it doesn't really interpret the 'monster condo' title much either

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Thinking about it, if I had done 27, I would have started it outside some gigantic demon-hive, a condominium being a large housing building, and monster being reflected as literally, full of monsters, and absolutely fucking huge.
Anyway, putting the jagged lines in but with invisible impassable lines makes sense. Nice to know that map is finally cleared.

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I hoped that the numeral numbering would never include the letter X..
But the cool thing is, I think nothing is broken this time. The TITLEPIC and CREDITS work, the emedded DEH is up to date, MAP34 now uses its proper music, the MAPINFO is ready.
I've also added demos. Funny thing is though, something screwed up, so at least in choco, DEMO2 and 3 end in rather amusing ways. No need to fix it though.

So, is Beta IX the final version? Let's hope so!

Also, the cool thing is, this project officially started on 17 August 2012, which was 656 days ago. So if we can just find something that takes me 10 days to fix..

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Played through the first few levels (so far) and liking it. But I find it a little odd that there wasn't any shotgun on the first map, at least that I could find, but a chaingun right where you begin along with an over abundance of bullets scattered throughout the map. I never had the problem of running out of bullets. Then on the second map I find a shotgun (not counting the ones dropped by the sergeants) and quickly thereafter a supershotgun within close proximity.

Also, I personally think maybe the difficulty is cranked up a little high, though I fear I may be a minority in this regard. Being confronted with hordes of zombies, imps, demons and chaingunners at only the beginning of the first level strikes me as a little excessive.

Don't get me wrong, I like what i've seen so far these are only nitpicks or minor gripes.

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Eris Falling said:

So if we can just find something that takes me 10 days to fix..

I know! How about you play the entire megawad to completion in every major source port? That way nobody can say that you didn't test EVERYTHING! XD

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I'm actually playing through B9 on ITYTD, just to make sure there's nothing game-breaking still left. Don't know what I exactly expect to find that real playtesters like plums and Effingham missed, but it's necessary for the 666 day development cycle.
I also have seriously difficult exams* this coming week, so that's slowing me down, so there's a valid excuse there.

*I compared them to HR2 just yesterday actually :P

CeeJay: I'm actually glad it starts out with a chaingun, as 1) It's different to usual, and 2) It's a good different, because I'm trying to imagine MAP01 with a shotgun, and I think it would be extremely boring, at least in comparison to with a chaingun.

No-one has reported anything broken, so they're all either bored of this being in beta (like myself), or this is finally ready.

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Eris Falling said:

No-one has reported anything broken, so they're all either bored of this being in beta (like myself), or this is finally ready.

We'll keep this beta forever just in case of minor inconveniences cropping out. ;)

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I'm not quite up to doing a full playthrough again but I've poked at a few maps and haven't noticed anything that needs fixing.

Actually one thing, MAP01 doesn't reset any MIDI controllers so I get extra reverb/chorus on it after the title music plays (really nice tune btw!). I don't know if you want to fix that or how many other people will be affected though.

Did you end up deciding to not use a new interpic? You could always go for a recolour of the classic Doom2 one if you wanted some variety.

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Being a Mark Klem track, MAP01 music is almost certainly in MUS format, so I wouldn't have a clue what to do with it, sadly.

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I've just been hacking through the whole wad on easy skill and it seems like map16 hasn't been properly optimised for lower difficulties. There are some bits that have less monsters but most of the stuff that Joseph added is the same on all settings.

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Map 27 seems to be broken on HNTR - yellow key and a couple of teleports aren't flagged for easy setting:
key: thing 726
teleport: thing 719
teleport: thing 983

Easy difficulty setting seems to be pretty well balanced throughout the maps, apart from 16, 24 and 29 which are noticably harder. 24 and 29 appear to have almost the same enemies on easy and hard.

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