Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
dobu gabu maru

The DWmegawad Club plays: Coffee Break & Fava Beans & Double Impact

Recommended Posts

SteveD said:
I only playtest my maps on UV.


Whereas I never test on UV, because I figure that's the difficulty the majority of playtesters will use :) (also, because I generally set UV to be 'harder than I would find fun')

Share this post


Link to post

I don't implement difficulty settings in my maps (I don't need them so I don't want to work on them) but if I did, I would probably take 40oz's approach. The main idea is that killing monsters is fun, more monsters means more fun, therefore lower skills shouldn't have less monsters because that would reduce the fun. Instead, lower skills should allow the player to play more aggressively by giving him more health/ammo and maybe introducing various weapons sooner than on UV.

Share this post


Link to post
Capellan said:

Whereas I never test on UV, because I figure that's the difficulty the majority of playtesters will use :) (also, because I generally set UV to be 'harder than I would find fun')


That's a pretty interesting approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Capellan said:

We see a similar pattern: more ammo, armor and health at lower levels, and more or tougher monsters at higher levels (more AVs and cacos; a PE instead of soem lost souls) as well as some fiddling with the power-ups (an invuln for HNTR when you fight the cacos becomes a berserk on HMP and an invis on UV - a powerup which might actually make that fight harder!).


Thanks, Capellan. I had already sent the other reply before I saw this. Is S45 Nightmare? What app did you use for these stats? I use DeepSea shareware, but I don't recall Total Hit Points in the Level Statistics. Makes me wonder if there's a better stats plug-in for DB2.

I guess my question is, "Why pump up the health and ammo for HMP/HNTR when there's already fewer, and in some cases, less dangerous enemies?" How many people these days play HNTR (no offense, Melon!)?

I suppose I'm a bit wedded to the UV-Lite approach, as Dobu described it, and I'm somewhat resistant to messing with the power-ups, largely because of time constraints. I would definitely need, as I said before, input from HNTR and HMP players to work these things out in a reasonable time.

I will definitely play Map06 from CC4. I had no idea you worked on that one. I played the first 3 maps, as I mentioned once, but got sidetracked before I reached yours. One thing I can say from looking at the stats -- needs more Chaingunners! ;D

The Megawad Club is very valuable to me as a mapper, because I do listen to what everyone says about the maps. One thing for certain is that I'm taking pistol-starters into consideration, making sure that each map has all the necessary weapons. That way, someone pistol-starting Map08 will find a Plasma Gun if it's needed, and won't be screwed because the only PG in the mapset was on Map05. ;D

Share this post


Link to post
Capellan said:

Whereas I never test on UV, because I figure that's the difficulty the majority of playtesters will use :) (also, because I generally set UV to be 'harder than I would find fun')


Wow, that's a shocker. Are you saying you don't find MM2 Map15 fun on UV?

I can understand your view. There are so many intangibles to playing and the individual psychology of players/mappers. I found Coffee Break Map11 to be very hard, but not in a fun way. Others disagreed, and still others, like Kristian, found it easy because of their playstyle. This brings up the, to me, shocking choice of Map08 as a favorite by many of the more skillful players, when I found it was as easy as a Fava Beans map. I mean, 1 death? Me? On UV? But cannoball and Memfis, who play rings around me, loved it. I guess there's no such thing as 1 answer, and our expectations can be confounded by reality. And maybe it's just the power, in this case, of a really gorgeous map.

Share this post


Link to post
Memfis said:

I don't implement difficulty settings in my maps (I don't need them so I don't want to work on them) but if I did, I would probably take 40oz's approach. The main idea is that killing monsters is fun, more monsters means more fun, therefore lower skills shouldn't have less monsters because that would reduce the fun. Instead, lower skills should allow the player to play more aggressively by giving him more health/ammo and maybe introducing various weapons sooner than on UV.


I have, on many occasions, thought, "Fuck the difficulty settings. Who has time for this?" I can really sympathize with your view. I also like 40oz's idea of just throwing in more goodies for lower difficulties to increase the player's aggression. I may make a map using this approach, just for fun, but I will continue to add difficulty settings because it's such a tradition. But personally, I will only playtest HMP and UV.

Share this post


Link to post

40oz said:
That's a pretty interesting approach.


It seems to work :) Requires other people to be playtesters of course, but that's usually not difficult to arrange.

SteveD said:
Thanks, Capellan. I had already sent the other reply before I saw this. Is S45 Nightmare? What app did you use for these stats? I use DeepSea shareware, but I don't recall Total Hit Points in the Level Statistics. Makes me wonder if there's a better stats plug-in for DB2.

I guess my question is, "Why pump up the health and ammo for HMP/HNTR when there's already fewer, and in some cases, less dangerous enemies?" How many people these days play HNTR (no offense, Melon!)?


I used wadspy, and send the output to a text file. S45 is UV/Nightmare.

I pump up the ammo and health for HMP/HNTR because not everyone plays on the lower difficulties for the same reasons. Also because it allows players to use safer but less efficient approaches to certain situations. That's why I don't like what memfis calls the "40oz approach". It assumes that more health and ammo will make a level fun for lower level players, and that isn't necessarily true.

SteveD said:
Are you saying you don't find MM2 Map15 fun on UV?


I'm saying I've never played it on UV :)

Share this post


Link to post

Re: MM2 Map15

Capellan said:

I'm saying I've never played it on UV :)


Picks. Jaw. Off. Floor.

Wow, that's the most shocking thing I've heard all day.

I play UV not because I'm good at Doom -- this much has been well-established by now! :D -- but because I want to see everything the mapper had in their vision, and perhaps also because I'm too stubborn and stupid to do it any other way. Now, I learn that the MM2 Map15 I played was at least as much the vision of your playtesters as yours, and I'll have to pistol-start that mofo on HMP to see what you intended.

Since I now know that you're a true-blue HMP player, I'm going to beg you at some point to playtest my maps. With luck, I'll sucker you into it.;D

Share this post


Link to post

I am very lazy when it comes to difficulty settings. For example for the ultimate doom maps it usually involves trimming down the tougher monsters and removing or downgrading sergeants as they can cause a lot of damage. Imps/demons/spectres rarely get changed. I do mess around with health/ammo/power ups from time to time though.
I just don't have the patience to fully implement difficulty settings and just assume remove or replace monsters in the tougher battles with less/weaker monsters should be sufficient. I get the feeling that playing my maps on easy would encourage rocket/plasma spam with the lesser number of demons to slay to a similar amount of ammo.

Share this post


Link to post

SteveD said:
Now, I learn that the MM2 Map15 I played was at least as much the vision of your playtesters as yours, and I'll have to pistol-start that mofo on HMP to see what you intended.

Since I now know that you're a true-blue HMP player, I'm going to beg you at some point to playtest my maps. With luck, I'll sucker you into it.;D



MM2 map15 is 100% my vision on every difficulty setting. I don't recall making any changes to the gameplay based on playtester feedback. If I did make any, they were very minor.

I've never played CC4 map06 on UV either (I have played it on both HMP and HNTR). There are a few of my maps I've played on UV, but they're the exception, not the rule, and I wouldn't use my own experience of them to tweak the gameplay. I'm a mediocre player, and UV is for good-or-better players.

I generally find that if I aim for UV to be "harder than I'd find fun, but the same basic play otherwise", I rarely get any complaints.

Off-hand, the only maps of mine that I recall requiring significant UV changes after playtester feedback were Demonfear maps 08 and 12.

Share this post


Link to post

@cannonball - Your approach seems similar to mine, and taking this back to Coffee Break, I guess I'm a little butthurt by the very dramatic difference in Map10's YK trap between HMP and UV. UV had 5 Revvies and HMP had none! That just pisses me off that I had to suffer so much from those Revvies when Capellan only had to deal with 4 HKs. Waaaaahhhhh!!!!!;D By my method of difficulty adjustment, UV would have gone from 5 Revvies and zero HKs to 3 Revvies and 2 HKs on HMP. So, as Dobu said, "UV-lite."

I had the same reaction when I looked at E3M6 of 2002:ADO and saw that HMP players got Medikits when I got Stimpacks. I liked the map, though, one of the few who did, but going from Stimpacks on UV to Medkits on HMP seemed a bit unjustified, especially when HMP players got fewer monsters to boot. It seemed more like a UV to HNTR progression.

Anyweay, I got that off my chest. ;D

Share this post


Link to post
Capellan said:

MM2 map15 is 100% my vision on every difficulty setting. I don't recall making any changes to the gameplay based on playtester feedback. If I did make any, they were very minor.

[/b]

OK, I get it. I don't think I could do it that way, because I lack the gear to envision what would be beatable. That's the thing with me, I guess, I have to guarantee that I can beat it before I release anything, unless I can get some quality UV testers to beat it for me, but then I'd have to rely on their guidance. So you have an unusual skill in this area.

I'm a mediocre player, and UV is for good-or-better players.


Or extremely stubborn ones. ;D

Share this post


Link to post

So, since the 12 of may is passed from less here, i want to start the Fava Beans review! Before we start, i want to say that this episode was one of my favorite mods of my younger Doom playing over GALAXIA.WAD, The Invaders Series and many others back in the days (well, that wasn't a huge choice of quality on my showelware CDs...), and i think it's be like this for everyone here...

Gameplay: http://youtu.be/wdo9xZtFzAI

So, i'll start to replay this after a very long time, and here's my feedback:

E1M1: Over the weird level title it's a fast and cool level in the style of e1m1 feel, layout is fast and fluid (eh, like in Coffee Break ^_^), and you can recognize where to go (well, almost for the big part, that e1m1-ish secret courtyard i found it after a long time playing it and pushing at the walls back in the day...) but i don't remembered the yellow key-card pillar that lower when you just push the pillar...

However, fast map, shoot few monsters, run and push switch until you get the exit. Done.

Next day for e1m2!

Share this post


Link to post

Fave Beans

HMP. Continuous. Frequent quicksave/quickload. No music.

e1m1
A by-the-standard-of-its-time well put together e1 style map. The yellow key is wholly superfluous to the flow, though. You could ditch it entirely, remove the yellow door, and have a better map (since it wouldn't force you to backtrack for no good reason). Texture use is solid if bland; architecture is good by 1995 standards. Gameplay is as easy as you'd expect for map01.

Share this post


Link to post

Lots of very mixed reactions to map 11, I see. Not perturbing--it's a very conceptual map, and as such, that sort of response is par for the course. I myself find I tend to either very much like these spins on making old bosses new again, or to be very unimpressed with them (as an example of the latter, the spiderdemon/obstacle course battle from one of the Base Ganymede episodes sticks out in my mind--I quite liked its cyberdemon map, though!). That "Stalker" essentially draws the encounter out over the course of a lot of map terrain, making nuanced use of the both the cyber's incredible resilience and devastating attack, is an idea I quite like. I'll be REALLY impressed if somebody can find a way to make an E1M8-style group of Barons seem climactic again....

Speaking of which....you expressed an interest in seeing me play, right, Steve? Well, I felt a bit saucy and recorded a demo for this map. Due to my specific preferences, it requires Eternity to play, though, rather than a primary demo-centric port like PrBooM+ or the like. If you don't feel like DLing/using a different port just to watch some dude muck around with a few non-standard settings, there are no worries/no offense taken, as I sometimes like to record demos of myself playing just for my own use, and so it was no trouble.

Map 11 - Stalker - UV-Max

As a player, I don't really have much intelligent to say about the skill settings issue, as I always play everything on UV, except in those rare cases when A) I feel like having a little Nightmare or B) the mapper treats the different skill settings not as varying grades of difficulty, but uses them to set up alternate thing placements entirely. My own (egocentric) point of view leads me to hope that mappers will try to maintain a thrilling pace/sense of climax on all settings, so that those who prefer to play on lower skill settings can enjoy them too, as opposed to the approach of just adulterating each successively lower skill setting to make it easier and easier to reach the exit alive. For all that, though, I don't think mappers really 'ought' to feel any obligation to support skill settings at all--but if you're going to do it, take it seriously, I say. Incidentally, Capellan's approach is not unheard of. Those who saw Cannonball and I mention the delightful sadism of Death-Destiny's mapping might be interested to know that he (D-D) apparently took a similar approach--on UV many of his maps are very tough, and that's what he's know for, but several of them come bundled with maxruns recorded by Death-Destiny himself on the HMP skill setting, suggesting that he tailored HMP to his own comfort/enjoyment level and then treated UV as "crazy hard bonus mode." This is just speculation on my part, though....someone who knows better will surely correct me, if need be, I'm sure.

Share this post


Link to post

Beans time. Playing through consecutively because I don't feel like challenging myself that much (even if Fava is easy)

E1M1: Well, I'm definitely back in the mid 90s. Stepping out the door we have some scrolling wall textures on the ceiling, windows enemies can barely peek out of, and a pane into the exit room you have to take an elevator up to peek at. Coming off of Tropiano's masterful setpieces, this can be kind of jarring, but I quite like Birkel's contrast; the unscrupulous creativity portrayed here keeps the player amused and curious. The constant height variations, strange angles of hallways, use of SHAWN2 texture as a switch... something about the oldschool design just makes me smile as I creep through these complexes.

Gameplay wise it's fine, nothing to really note of since it feels very much like we're in E1. Interested to see where the rest of it goes however, especially what traps/secrets await.

Share this post


Link to post
Demon of the Well said:

Speaking of which....you expressed an interest in seeing me play, right, Steve? Well, I felt a bit saucy and recorded a demo for this map. Due to my specific preferences, it requires Eternity to play, though, rather than a primary demo-centric port like PrBooM+ or the like. If you don't feel like DLing/using a different port just to watch some dude muck around with a few non-standard settings, there are no worries/no offense taken, as I sometimes like to record demos of myself playing just for my own use, and so it was no trouble.


Thank you! I will watch this as soon as I can, which in part means, when I can figure out how to play it. I have Eternity, and indeed almost all the ports, loaded up in ZDL, but I couldn't get the demo to play from the launcher. Jeez, will I need the DOS Prompt for this? ;D

Demon of the Well said:

As a player, I don't really have much intelligent to say about the skill settings issue, as I always play everything on UV, except in those rare cases when A) I feel like having a little Nightmare or B) the mapper treats the different skill settings not as varying grades of difficulty, but uses them to set up alternate thing placements entirely. My own (egocentric) point of view leads me to hope that mappers will try to maintain a thrilling pace/sense of climax on all settings, so that those who prefer to play on lower skill settings can enjoy them too, as opposed to the approach of just adulterating each successively lower skill setting to make it easier and easier to reach the exit alive. For all that, though, I don't think mappers really 'ought' to feel any obligation to support skill settings at all--but if you're going to do it, take it seriously, I say.


I do take it seriously, although not as seriously as UV. It's hard to get excited about settings I don't normally play, which is why I'm sort of giving up trying to figure it out myself, and will call in HNTR and HMP players to help me out. It's that or "The Rule of Threes." ;D

Demon of the Well said:

Incidentally, Capellan's approach is not unheard of. Those who saw Cannonball and I mention the delightful sadism of Death-Destiny's mapping might be interested to know that he (D-D) apparently took a similar approach--on UV many of his maps are very tough, and that's what he's know for, but several of them come bundled with maxruns recorded by Death-Destiny himself on the HMP skill setting, suggesting that he tailored HMP to his own comfort/enjoyment level and then treated UV as "crazy hard bonus mode." This is just speculation on my part, though....someone who knows better will surely correct me, if need be, I'm sure.


"Tough" is an understatement for any skill setting of nochance.wad. I probably wouldn't make it more than 20 virtual feet in that map on UV, and perhaps only 3 times as far on HNTR. "Delightful sadism," indeed.

There are times, as I mentioned, when I think about going the HMP route for Doom 2, because sooner or later I'll encounter a map I can't deal with. However, I found most of Coffee Break relatively easy on UV, ditto Hadephobia, so I haven't committed to that idea yet. It will depend on the mapset, I guess. But I am learning a lot watching the Suitepee, Memfis and cannonball videos (I watched his E2 and SF2012 videos), and now yours is on the docket. Yeah, I'll get the hang of this Doom thing one of these days. ;D

Share this post


Link to post

Finishing up Coffee Break

Map 9: did not finish, 1 death
Hey, another start with attackers coming from three sides. Again? Enjoyed this one. Occasionally got lost and looked at the automap to find the next place to go. Blue key trap is less deadly on HMP. With only demons and revenants in a small area, it got tense but I lucked out without taking any damage (I think, need to watch demo again). Found backpack secret late after having all the keys. BFG area ambush surprised me. I was inching forward to take shots at a distant imp and sprung the trap.
The following ambush ends my run in the darndest way possible. I get greedy and eat lots of chaingunner damage but the killshot comes from a Mancubus fireball that was aimed at a different enemy. I don't want to go through the map again and quit.

Map 10: 101% kills, 0% secrets, 2 deaths Time: 30+ minutes on exit.
Another start where attacks come from multiple angles on the first shot. This time there are some bigger monsters present mixing it up. I lure the hellknight and mancubus to clean out the riffraff and let them settle their differences with each other. So I'm in good shape with ammo. First death comes at the first key. Try to get revenant to hurt demons, end up dying. Get past on next attempt by handling it the intended way: chaingun immediately on revenant, advance to its alcove, and deal with demons at my leisure. Placement feels very spot on here. The armor by the berserk can be lost but that doesn't happen to me. Interesting AV fight here. Second death comes by Archvile in the mud area. Next attempt, I solve this with a rocket barrage. The very next AV is the tensest part of the playthrough for me. I'm stuck in the mud and if the AV lands an attack, I'm dead. The revived baron and the arachnotrons waiting on the balcony are minor threats by comparison.
The fireplace portal is a highlight. Interesting setup even when the welcoming ambush can be cheesed by ducking in and out of the portal. The distant enemies are a bit of a chore to pick off, just a small quibble. An unavoidable armor lies beyond the yellow key door (unless the gap can be strafejumped) with the crowds on ledges easily goaded into infighting. I figured correctly that the exit was reachable after hitting the switch there. The remaining enemies don't pose much threat.

Map 11: did not finish, 1 death
I found the opening repetitive here, already have seen this sort of thing multiple times in this mapset. The cyber takes shots at me before teleporting away, adding to the tension. I do scrounge up enough shells circling the courtyard to take out the cyber there. Leads to ammo shortages later which I resolve with infighting. Death in the second courtyard ambush. I decide I would not have fun playing this without saves and quit. Located zero secrets.

Well, guess I'll package some of my demos and post in the Speed Demos FDA thread. Maybe. EDIT: No due to filesizes. Anyways, I lack Ultimate Doom so I'll be sitting the rest of this out.

Share this post


Link to post

MAP10 – FORT

At first I was feeling kinda meh on this level. Then I hated it. Then I loved it.

The first part is typical Coffee Break at this point – smallish corridor rooms with lots of inter-connecting and looping back through areas, this time with height variation, which made for a nice change. However, still pretty simple stuff – enemies are typically in front of you, and no fights that are too difficult (the only times I took lots of damage was stupid stuff like eating a 65% damage Revenant rocket with green armor or firing my own rocket launcher into a wall, etc.) Then comes the mud room. WTF. The slowing effect is so extreme (and it’s so easy to fall off the little stepping stones into it) that the slightest misstep is basically death and the Arch-Vile is impossible to beat. I ended up shooting it with rockets from outside the room. But the fireplace transition into the hellish area was awesome, and I really loved the aesthetic of that area – there’s just something really cool about having the parallax ceiling and floor with floating hellish stuff I’ve always liked in Doom. Probably made me like this map more than I should’ve; the rest is fairly meh.

I wasn’t really feeling the texture choices, rather than a cohesive whole it feels like the author just grabbed a bunch of random brown textures and slapped them together, figuring they’d mesh because they’re all brown. There was also some strange design choices, such as having the red key right next to the red door and completely unguarded – no monsters to fight, no trap, no teleports, no nothing – just grab the key and go through the door.

MAP11: STALKER

Not bad for an ending map. I've been doing continuous play so I probably could've killed the Cyber early on, but I had skimmed some of the reviews here so I let it live until the final battle. While there is some looping in this map (mainly the courtyard with the fences and the blue door) it didn't feel as forced or repetitive as some of the other maps, and instead felt like one long journey. I'm usually not a fan of linear maps like that but I think as an ending map, one is okay. The battles here were actually somewhat difficult and provided some good gameplay, and the map looked nicer than MAP10. The last battle especially was hard (mainly due to having revenants perched up on walls surrounding the entire arena with no wall behind them to use rocket splash) but by the time I beat it I still felt victorious rather than frustrated, so, good job.

OVERALL THOUGHTS

This mapset definitely has it's own style, with lots of the same design cues and quirks repeated throughout. There's lots of emphasis on looping through old parts of the level, which is good but can start to be repetitive after a few times since there's only so many ways to make a figure-8 design. This is especially true since the style is based around lots of small, corridor-ish rooms, with only the occasional outdoor or larger area. Gameplay is fairly easy throughout, with most of the monsters in front of the player and only a few decent ambushes. Most of the difficulty comes at the start of maps due to the author's love of placing hitscanners on high ledges surrounding the player start, which is somewhat annoying.

Aesthetics-wise, there's some nice work in here, though also some spots that didn't look that good, such as the reptitive chunky computer consoles or bad texture mixes on MAP03 or MAP10.

Overall, I think 11 maps is the right length, as the levels started to feel very same-y after awhile. There's a lot of promise here though, but I'd like to see the author branch out and try some other styles for his maps.

Favorite Maps: MAP04 ("Toxic"), MAP08 ("Archives"), parts of MAP10 ("FORT")

Worst Maps: MAP06 ("Checkpoint"), MAP07 ("Deadly"), the mud room in MAP10

Share this post


Link to post

Fava Beans

Map01 – Kills – 100, Items – 70, Secret – 100. Time 6:36. End Health 155, Armor Zero. Death Count – Zero

Playing on GZDoom, UV, continuous, with Always Run off.

Playing Fava Beans again is like slipping on a comfortable old pair of shoes. Sure, it’s easy. My E1M1 has almost twice as many monsters on HNTR and 4 times as many on UV. None of that matters, though. What distinguishes Fava is flowing design, nifty secrets and interconnectivity. Right here on the first map you have overlooks, can peer into secret areas, and find yourself in a nice crossfire the moment you step through the door. It isn’t tough combat, but you do have to take action, or you’ll get hurt.

It’s a teasing kind of map. You can look into slit windows up high, which aren’t meant to allow enemies to snipe you, but to alert you that something cool is up there. You just have to figure out the path. Later maps will have genuine sniper windows. Birkel also employs E1 Romero angles, with oddly narrowing corridors, which IMO has both a psychological effect and also gives nice firing angles for you and the monsters. This tendency of Romero to avoid purely straight lines in corridors was much talked about on the DTWID thread. Sean Birkel had that all figured out in ’95.

Birkel’s architecture and texture use is classic E1 style, with flourishes that were not overly common in ’95, such as sunken floors, tray ceilings with Compute textures and patterned ceilings showing the sky, and all that is here in E1M1. It helps, too, that Brown1 is among my favorite textures and the tech base is my favorite Doom environment.

Birkel’s lighting is a bit less vivid in this map than some of the others, but still has some stark changes.

Overall, this is an easy but good-looking map that’s fun to go running around in. Not the best map in the set, but a nice intro.

Share this post


Link to post
SteveD said:

Thank you! I will watch this as soon as I can, which in part means, when I can figure out how to play it. I have Eternity, and indeed almost all the ports, loaded up in ZDL, but I couldn't get the demo to play from the launcher. Jeez, will I need the DOS Prompt for this? ;D

Thank you for the interest, it's flattering. Eternity has onboard demo playback support within its in-game menus if you can get all your ducks in a row, but personally I always just run it (and indeed, every other thing related to DooM) from the (fake) DOS prompt/command line. To do that here, you would bring up the directory where you have Eternity, the .lmp file and your WADs/IWADs and type:

Eternity -iwad doom2.wad -file cafebrk1.wad -playdemo stlkrUV.lmp

On to Fava Beans....well, as I said, I've played this before, long ago and far away. My hope is that enough time has passed that I won't remember very much of it very clearly, thus making exploration a new adventure all over again, since I know I'm not exactly going to be feeling much of an adrenaline rush as far as the battles go.

E1M1 -- Gaspra Armory - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Okay, the good news right off the bat is that this armory wasn't anything like I thought it was going to be, meaning that I probably have the E1M1 from some other old E1 replacement confused with this (I know I'm not completely insane, though, since I played E1M2 as well and remembered it pretty clearly). It's a very plain and understated structure, that pays direct homage to the broad form of several iconic Knee Deep tropes, like the large, barren open-air secret area. Combat is non-threatening in the extreme, as most monsters are sectioned off where they can't reach you behind windows, or, in the case of the very first group (which is actually unexpectedly large/heterogeneous for being the first monsters you encounter), behind an inexplicable monster-nocross line. A pretty good degree of verticality in map traversal and a tastefully limited texture selection compensate somewhat, although I probably would've wandered around a bit before pressing on the yellow key pillar if I hadn't read others' comments before playing. Secrets are all pretty mundane pushwalls, simpler even than Hangar's, really. I'm glad the rocket launcher is there, though, as using it on the monsters across the ooze in the northerly area is the only remotely satisfying bit of bloodshed to be had. I will say, though, that the exiting room/construct is really quite cool, very striking.

Share this post


Link to post

Fava Beans

As usual I'll be pistol-starting on HNTR. I considered playing on HMP or UV thanks to all the comments that this set was easy but thought I'd keep things consistent.

E1M1

I was pretty shocked when this map ended. I mean, I knew I'd walked through an exit door but I wasn't actually expecting the map to end because I hadn't used my red key yet! Nor seen the blue one. I played through the map a second time and found that the red key led to the blue key which led to a chaingun. Would be useful if I played consecutively but because I don't it's totally worthless. Still, it's a 1995 mapset and these sorts of things come across as charming rather than oversights.

This map had some cool things and also some strange things. The liquid slime on the ceiling above the yellow key through me for a loop but it actually looks OK. Very oldskool. I did like that all of the secret rooms in this map were viewable from elsewhere even if it wasn't immediately obvious. Another oldskool thing is the large platform the soulsphere resides on that doesn't really go anywhere, but is high up just so you can see it through the window, I feel that most modern mapsets would stick the soulsphere on its own pillar or have the lift lead you into a room holding the sphere rather than the room itself being the lift, if you know what I mean.

I do love the exploratory feel I'm getting from the offset and the use of totally optional keys and the like. While there wasn't all that much to this map, I thought it was a nice opener.

Share this post


Link to post

MAP10 - Kills - 104, Items - 81, Secret - 0. Death Count - 6. Total Time ~34:40, Final Time 13:11

I like bricks. I like jumping from rooftop to rooftop and walking on them (see: CChest MAP21). One bad thing: ridiculously placed linedef with "block monster" flag. Also, a pity this door can't be opened (see below), and you could walk in further, would be a nice mapping trick ;)


MAP11 - Kills - 115, Items - 75, Secret - 0. Death Count - Many. Total Time - Just a bit less than MAP10, as the .lmp size is 291kB (versus 296kB), Final Time 23:54

Mmmm, an excellent last map with a strategically placed cyberdemon. I figured that there IS enough ammo to finish him early, but then I had to punch half of the map :)

Overall it was not bad at all, I don't regret playing it. Before starting, I thought it was a Khorus not MTrop's mapset, then I expected something average or "solid but not to my taste"... You convinced me to some of your ideas and motifs, such as a typical start of a level with monsters showing you your backs (I prefer facing them face to face).
Favourites: 2,5,11, maybe 8,10 also.


Fava Beans - I know this mapset, not sure if I have time to play it, I need to read this thread first (half of the comments I didn't yet); if I do, will be -fast or -nighmare, as, despite cacodemons and lost souls, it is easier than Knee-Deep in the Dead. This WAD gains big respect from me, Sean Birkel as well, but somehow I didn't enjoy playing it over and over again. Kyle McAwesome's max demos are... awesome though, I love how he uses efficiently every single cell on E1M2 or E1M3 (don't remember now), so I will replay these at least.

...

The discussion about Capellan's m215. I played this map a lot both on HMP and UV. A very cool motif with a barrel on UV only (the mancubus basement). No megasphere on UV, but soulsphere + partial invisibility is just as powerful for me if I want to speedrun through it.

Share this post


Link to post

Good greetings, friends of the Doomworld Megawad Club! Twitch.tv has started behaving itself again and lo, we have for you here the briskest of streamthroughs for the Where's All The Data? program, focusing now on Birkel's Fava Beans. Bugman and Archvileman feature in what could well be the most insightful outing for the show yet... notwithstanding dreamy yarns.

http://www.twitch.tv/st_alfonzo/c/2273066

Major apologies for repeating that the mapset is from '94 rather than '95. I'm an ill educated, tea sipping sloth-for-brains.

Enjoy!

Share this post


Link to post

MAP03:
Hitscanners.

Hitscanners everywhere.

A stark contrast to the flow of MAP02 -- every corner here had something lurking behind it, and any important item was trapped, so due caution and patience was paramount. See that SSG? Well don't go rushing for it just yet, better be sure everything around you is already dead. Because more stuff's about to greet you.

The zombie battalion in the final room was a bit of a waste; I took one look, immediately backed out through the doorway, and they still managed to murder each other down to a pitiful three despite only having had a few seconds to fire on me. And as for the Blue Keycard? The attack from grabbing this was more tedious than dangerous; just by running laps around the central block, infighting amongst the contents of each chamber was enough to thin out the ranks considerably.

The Arch-Vile before the exit door? Nice enough touch I guess, although easy to keep contained. The Demon in the exit room? Slap.


MAP04:
Cool converyor belt start aside, I could feel the 'combat saturation' starting to set in here; almost every action was met with a bunch of stuff being unleashed and trying to kill me, no matter how trivial my progress. It wasn't tough or anything like that, but it just got a bit tiring to have to hold down MOUSE1 so frequently for the most mundane of advances. Or maybe it was the Spectres loitering around in the nukage that just put me in the wrong mindset. Whatever.

This was the highlight by far:




MAP05:
Blood Jungle!

Okay, so this one was yet another change of pace, with most of my time apparently being spent on rushing behind cover and taking potshots through the various windows at reams of Zombies and Imps. The action does pick up every now and then (watch your back), but generally things are a little toothless, save for the occasional unlucky hit taken from a Revenant or Hellknight.

Speaking of which... that's what this prick got for being clever with homing missiles.

The last little shoot-out was okay, I guess. I was expecting something other than Chaingunners, but hey; at least it wasn't a tired and predictable use of more Revenants. One thing that is getting really tired and predictable now though? The constant 'exit surprises'. Maybe it's just me, but when every exit room has something waiting within, it pretty much ceases to be surprising to see/hear them.

And fuck that fucking Megasphere secret! I hate shit like this, because it's not always the case that you'd be in any condition to start explosively propelling yourself around like a fucking idiot. You can get it with SR50, but it's such a fucking pain in the ass to do so (really, you have to be pixel-perfect) that I think I'd rather pull my own fucking toenails out than get all secrets on this map again. What a disappointment.

What a piece of shit.


MAP06:
Okay, halfway there! I suppose it's not that bad for a mid-point 'Boss' battle, but at the same time it's not really anything memorable. An almost completely symmetrical layout, with a load of cannon fodder standing between you and the exit.

Said exit is guarded by a Spider Mastermind, but then like in so many instances this one is placed in an area that's just not suited for the cybernetic face on legs. Bang, crash, boom. Leave. Oh wait, there's something in the exit room. What a surprise.


MAP07:
Dead Simple: Really Good Edition.

Okay, maybe a bit of an exaggeration. It's better than the average MAP07 'tribute', but in a strange twist the Mancubi really had some difficulty in navigating the arena. The Arachnotrons put up a bit more of a fight, but still found themselves unable to really be effective.

Also, another boring 'surprise' awaits as I try to leave.

Fuck off out of my way you gimp.


MAP08:
STOP. Those Zombiemen are awfully tempting targets, but just check around first -- the walls, the windows, behind you...

Pretty good, although nearly every Demon within here was employed uselessly. The encounters effortlessly flow into one another without it feeling forced or bogged-down, and the lone Arch-Vile used is placed well enough to resurrect a couple of fallen Hellspawn, although still unable to stand against a barrage of rockets. Probably the best map so far; the action is pretty constant but thankfully light on Hitscanners, at least compared to several of the previous maps. The secrets are also fairly straightforward, only requiring a bit of exploration as opposed to some cryptic switch-hunt bullshit.

After clearing out the inside, the penultimate area is pretty hectic for its small size; there are a multitude of Cacodemons backed up by various other Hellspawn, and it can be all too easy to find yourself caught up in a sea of projectiles while picking targets. The last little skirmish here though doesn't really add much or live up to the rest of the map, which is a bit of a shame... oh well, time to go and claim those secret rewards.

Wait, what the fuck... oh god, you mean I can't go back for that Soulsphere? Or the Mega-Armour? What the hell, I thought we were through with this sort of thing? Fuck this, let's check DB2... nope, nothing at all. Why are y-.. oh, okay, so there actually is a way back up... via a completely fucking random linedef.

NO.


MAP09:
Much like MAP04, there's a constant pressure on you here. Unlike MAP04, it doesn't feel so artificial; most enemies here suit their position and surroundings, although there are a few irritations to be experienced with the occasional snag on a torch or whatever dickheaded Hellspawn decides to get in the way. By which I mean everyone's least favourite method of having a bunch of shit appear is employed liberally enough -- here come a bunch of vegetable impressions, sprouting from the ground beneath. In fairness most of them are on liquid flats, so it's at least acceptable from a visual standpoint.

I don't know what stopped this one from being alerted.

Huuurrrrrrrr!

The level is similar in style and flow to MAP08; you loop around and come back on yourself a few times, unlocking a new path with each pass and setting loose a pack of knobheads with every switch press. As things go on, you can feel the difficulty of the map gradually increasing, slowly but surely creeping toward that finale...

Then you get the BFG9000, and everything dies.

Share this post


Link to post

MAP10:
What the hell?! Actual use of Boom features that aren't all that Voodoo shit??! Unbelievable!

Yep! While there are only two, it's good to know that they are being used. There's a thick mud pit (or at least I think it's mud; it could be shit, decayed corpses, or whatever the hell else you feel like interpreting that brown liquid as), which will slow you down horribly if you lose your footing (allowing a pair of Arch-Viles to turn into some sort of 'boil in the bag' exhibit), and a sudden (and pleasantly surprising) silent teleporter that isn't used to create some sort of 3D illusion, but instead sends you off to Hell to retrieve a key.

Speaking of which, I really expected some bullshit to happen on taking said key. And of all places to NOT suddenly have shit flying at me from everywhere, it's a small corner of Hell. Incredible. The biggest headfuck of the WAD happens, because nothing happens.

A couple of things had me grinding my teeth though -- Revenant use is becoming tediously common now, and dealing with so many just turns the adventure into a chore. It's nothing to do with the difficulty, it's to do with having to constantly duck back behind walls and other obstacles and having several battles take longer than they really should. I know I'm in something of a minority when it comes to questioning constant Revenants, but come on; it does nothing but add to monotony when it's the same thing waiting around a corner or behind a door.

And then there's THIS shit:

Fuck.


FUCK.


FFUUUUUUUCK.

What the fuck is with this trend of putting basic Armour pickups in such horrible, awkward places? We had it in Interception. We had it in ADO. We had it in Hadephobia, and now we have it here, three fucking times in one map. While they are avoidable, it's always involving such a narrow space that it can be all to easy to pick them up and completely fuck things.

Oh, and there's another 'surprise' Arch-Vile in the exit. Yawn.


MAP11:
Oh for fuck's sake there are just Revenants everywhere.

From the beginning, it's obviously going to be a do-or-die scenario all the way through -- and rightly so, if this is going to be the finale -- but the endless harassment from Revenants again just turns things into a largely unenjoyable lump of nonsense.

The Cyberdemon's first appearance is quite a jolt; once again I get the shitty end of the RNG stick and have to rely on a split-second reaction to avoid getting pasted across the walls and floor, only to hear the bastard teleport away before the last rocket impacts. He's visible again shortly after this dirty trick, and do you know what? Fuck him.

Ha-fucking-ha.

This 'maze' that he once lorded over ends up serving as some sort of central hub, with a few passes through here when the next section can be unlocked, and it's just packed with Revenants; whether they emerge from the floor (Christ) or burst out from a series of monster closets, it's a set of encounters that become mind-numbing -- eventually you can just hide behind a pillar, then rocket the fuck out of the clusters while they can't do anything about it. It's slow, it's tedious, and it's about as fun as falling down some concrete stairs.


But at least this shithead won't be bothering me anymore.

And that's all there really is to it; if you take out the Cyberdemon while he stomps about in his little square, the rest of the map falls without much struggle because the 'big' encounters are designed with a barrage of rockets in mind. I guess I wasn't really playing as 'intended', but fuck it, I don't care. If you're going to start throwing the same fucking things at me all the time, then I'm going to exploit design flaws.

The final room was horrible at best, and really, I can't see how this would have been fun. Once more, there are just walls of Revenants (and lesser minions) surrounding the arena and you get shitty, pitiful cover to deal with it. I was just running around in circles blasting the fuck out of everything with the BFG, because that's all you can really do while under the threat of so many missiles. If there was a Cyberdemon stomping around here too, I don't know if that crappy tactic would pay off at all. Probably not, but whatever. Not my situation to deal with, because I decided to be cheap earlier.


And then typically I found this fucking thing while (pointlessly) hunting for the last secret.


And it didn't do shit for me.



Took me longer than I expected, given the title. I'll have to see if I can get away with taking over two hours next time I go on a break from work-related activity. Overall, Coffee Break isn't a bad little runaround. Level design is certainly clear enough so that you always have some idea of how to progress, it looks good in spite of sticking to limited texture themes, the way that bits and pieces manage to intertwine and such is very nice, and the secrets are seemingly all marked in some way or other, often simply requiring a bit of exploration and checking around objects. It is let down in places though by an eventually tiring over-use of Revenants in the later maps (even some of the early ones use them a bit too often), that stupid Megasphere secret on MAP05, MAP10's infuriating Armour bullshit, and the frequent and bizarre employment of useless enemies in the exits.

As usual, it's worth checking out, at the very least until halfway through, but it's definitely the last few maps where the layouts and flow can really begin to shine.


No. Next time I'll have tea.

Share this post


Link to post

Melon said:
As usual I'll be pistol-starting on HNTR. I considered playing on HMP or UV thanks to all the comments that this set was easy but thought I'd keep things consistent.


I really, really recommend switching to HMP. Most of the levels the difference in monster count is not large. For e1m5, where there actually is a significant difference, there are two dozen monsters on HNTR, and 18 of those are troopers. i.e. e1m1 is harder on HNTR than e1m5 is

Share this post


Link to post

E1M1 - Gaspra Armory
Not much to say here, fine map with fast gameplay, the progression is linear and only one key is needed, the other two are optional to obtain the chaingun. Lots of height variation and good use of space. The fights are simple but they are engaging. Found all the secrets.
Good opening map this one.
Misc info, this map has exactly the same monster count as my E1M1 from the wad I'm making, though I actually feel this map superior in it's use of height and space.

Share this post


Link to post

E1M1 - Gaspra Armory | 3:58 | 100% kills, 95% items, 66% secrets | 0 deaths

Not much to say here. A nice opening map, nothing too hard but I still found myself getting some damage.
A brown techbase map, no new music which is slightly unfortunate. Good thing the E1 soundtrack is pretty great so I still get to enjoy the music.
Fast gameplay, not that obvious secrets (I missed one) and overall an okay map.
Hope it gets more interesting later on.

Share this post


Link to post

e1m2
I liked that you could go outside at the start and snipe in at the enemies. I liked the use of windows in general, actually – plenty of opportunities to see into areas you hadn't visited yet. I also liked the secret that drew inspiration from the original e1m2 secrets. I was less thrilled with the narrow corridor sections of the map, and the BFG non-secret.

I did think this had a better flow than the first map, the corridor sections (which largely appear to be optional) excepted.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×