Unholy Realms Public Release Thread (/idgames link posted)

On map30 monsters, which spawn on pentagrams near the Icon of Sin can't move, most probably due to height variations on spawn points. Also, teleports in the big lava river near the BFG don't work.

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dew said:

I get what you mean, but technically the only time you need to slimedive is when going for the YK switch late into progression. The rest is more of "I want to do this and the map is not letting me", sort of. I like what the pigs do to cacos - slow them down when crossing the mid section, make them shoot more before reaching you. I guess Snakes could add an inconspicuous monster blocking line where the blocking-from-below tends to happen, but it'll be guesstimating everyone's thought processes, heh.

Speaking of monster block lines, sometimes an Arachnotron will take a teleporter and end up on the start area.

Intentional?

It's not hard to deal with this if it occurs (just telefrag it, obviously), but it's sorta goofy to see an immobile arachnotron that was previously in the slime chilling up on the start platform.

If it's not intentional, it shouldn't be hard to solve with block monster lines around the teleporters.

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On MAP25, it's possible to get archvile jumped up onto the southernmost ledge and into an inescapable HOM pit full of monsters, if you haven't yet triggered the line that raises the pit to be visible. I got vilejumped up there twice during a coop run.

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dew said:

I have to say the SSG secret is really telephoned in though.

Only if you are playing with status bar OFF. :) Otherwise you can't see the end of the arrow from the starting position and it looks like a decorative crescent moon, at least that's what I thought when I saw it lol.

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Been playing through this slowly recently (up to MAP12). It's quite fun so far.

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Memfis said:

Only if you are playing with status bar OFF. :) Otherwise you can't see the end of the arrow from the starting position and it looks like a decorative crescent moon, at least that's what I thought when I saw it lol.

Same here (actually, I didn't realize that it was an arrow until I read this and went back to look at it).

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Right then, an updated has been posted. Changes include:

-Various minor bugfixes mentioned throughout thread (hover-items, dehacked stuff)
-HOM in Map27 and Map30 fix'd
-Several alterations to a number of maps for more friendly co-op play
-Map14 arch-vile battles have been slightly changed, though this hasn't been tested yet (they can hop between two buildings now)
-Map30's "timing" challenge has been made a good deal simpler
-Map17's exit-door mechanic has been changed

You can find a link to the updated version the .zip on the first post. No balancing changes have been made as of this point. Still waiting on more feedback in terms of ammo.

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Snakes said:Still waiting on more feedback in terms of ammo. [/B]

I've only played the first 17 maps, but they seem fine ammo-wise.

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Cool stuff. All of these tricks are intended and in some cases, there's another trick involved that can shave off even more time. With a few exceptions, every map has some sort of shortcut involved. I tried to design this wad with demoing in mind (though I had to re-edit a few of the earlier maps to achieve this later on).

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Dunno why you don't like map 18 (according to the text file, that is); I thought it was pretty fun.

I do wish the pillar in the first room was slightly larger; the very first fight is the most threatening part of the map, and it would make it easier to shake Revenant fireballs that are left over after the final fight.

EDIT: BTW, this is another one where the name on the automap disagrees with the name on the between-levels screen and the text file.

DOUBLE EDIT: Ammo-wise, map 19 can be a problem if you don't find the secret with 2 rocket-boxes and 2 bulk cells or the BFG secret (which I never figured out how to access), and you don't know where the Viles spawn in (meaning they get to resurrect a lot of stuff). My first "almost clear" of the stage ended in in the blue door area, with me not having the ammo needed to kill the stuff on the upper ledge to leave. Perhaps make the Berserk secret accessible earlier, or perhaps add a backpack earlier (I suspect some of the ammo troubles may have been because it's easy to accidentally walk over a shell box in this map when you're at 40 or so shells early)?

Also, A++ use of Cacodemons.

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Map 21: The shape of this candle pillar is awkward to move around, which is kinda annoying since it's the best place to take cover from the Arch-Vile (using this pillar lets the stone pillar shield you from the Arachnotron)
http://i.imgur.com/DEeOwKn.png

Also, holy shit this level was hard; by far the hardest in the wad so far for me, which was surprising for a level described as "medium/hard" in the textfile! If it weren't for my stubbornness exceeding my intelligence, I'd have turned the difficulty down to HMP for this one for sure, heh.

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I appreciate all the effort that went into it and I'm ready to applaud Snakes for the very fact that he created full one-man megawad (such dedication has always been highly respected by me, lazy and unsteady prick), but - I label this overrated. Nothing exceptional, original or fresh here to praise it for. Sorry.

Fistfight, anyone?

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Demonologist said:

Fistfight, anyone?


No. I agree

Edit: But it's still being tested, so it may be awesome when it's 100% done. :)

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I doubt that, to make it awesome means to change the approach completely, not to fix minor stuff.

By the way - I guess not all of the music is written by Primeval? I can hear a midi rendition of Moonspell's 'Finisterra' clearly on map14, and this probably isn't the only example. Claiming the others' fame, huh?

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UR has a few unusual ideas when you look under the hood carefully, but I don't think it ever aspired to be a groundbreaking reinvention of how we perceive Doom. It's a damn good "Scythe replacement" and it's high time we actually got one (Surge or Coffee Break didn't deliver the full package). So while I won't dispute original, I'd say exceptional is subjective and you're wrong on fresh.

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To be fair, I actually don't see much Scythe in a lot of this. For one thing, Scythe's first two episodes were really easy, and the maps here, while short-ish, aren't "Scythe-short".

I'd say it's more like Scythe 2 without the annoying plasma dudes, or maybe a "finished, harder Vanguard". And since I love Scythe 2, but hated the plasma dudes, that's not a bad thing to be (although I do think that Coffee Break was generally better than what I've played so far of Unholy Realms [the first 22 maps]).

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@ dew: okay, let's go deeper. In my eyes, it's inferior to Scythe series, besides, it doesn't resemble them. Maps here aren't as short as in Scythe 1/X and not as diverse (both aesthetically and gameplay-wise) as in Scythe 2. The latter was indeed fresh and original, and UR with its 3 themes, all of them already overused hundreds of times, isn't. It feels 'classic' to the bone (yes, that's an insult, it's 2013 already, not 1996) with its easy predictable gameplay, constant slugfest and such. And by the way - Surge did it much cooler. At least it had enough dynamics to keep rolling without being overwhelmed by boredom.

Cynical said:

finished, harder Vanguard

Huuuh? Harder - no. Blander - yes. It lacks the variety of situations Vanguard has. Also themes, while originally being exactly the same, were executed better in there, though I admit this last part is completely subjective.

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Demonologist said:

By the way - I guess not all of the music is written by Primeval? I can hear a midi rendition of Moonspell's 'Finisterra' clearly on map14, and this probably isn't the only example. Claiming the others' fame, huh?


Map20 is also Symphony X's "Relic" :P Not the first time you hear familiar music in Doom games hehe

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Demonologist said:and UR with its 3 themes,

Uh, what? Jungle bases, Cities, Redrock mountains, Gothicy-hell-castles, brown-wood-outdoor-levels, earth-mountains, various styles of tech-bases; that's three themes? I think not.

Huuuh? Harder - no.

Yes, UR is much harder than Vanguard. 83% of Vanguard (namely, the first 10 maps) is really easy. Map 12 is pretty damn hard(and harder than anything I've seen so far in UR), but that's one map out of 12. UR is more consistently challenging.

It lacks the variety of situations Vanguard has.

No. Just no. UR's got a lot more variety in its encounters; more varied enemy placement (how many Arch-Vile snipers are there in Vanguard? Not many...), more varied map style (just compare maps 11 and 20!), more tricks and traps as opposed to static placements in fairly open areas.

Also, UR's Cacodemon usage (aside from that one stupid one at the start of map 05 that's neutered by the block monster line) is A+++++, and it's got some really unique usage of things that happen after a certain amount of time has passed in the maps (Such as Caco-swarms being unleashed in map 17, or the timed spawns in 20).

This isn't to say that UR is better than Vanguard (the jury is out on this one still; Vanguard definitely looks better, has better early maps [UR doesn't really hit stride until map 17, with maps 6, 9, and 12 being exceptions to this] and it's overall more polished, but UR tends to have better individual combat situations). But saying it's easier than Vanguard, or has less variety, or has "three themes", or looks like something made in 1996? Insane.

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Demonologist said:

It feels 'classic' to the bone (yes, that's an insult, it's 2013 already, not 1996)


If UR came out in 1996 I would shit myself considering it looks visually and plays like ~2007 at worse. Also Plutonia came out in 1996 and still looks and plays better than most shit that comes out today.

I do agree that it instantly loses major points for a Techbase -> Transitional -> Hell progression. I'm tired off that and I wish it would go away and die.

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Playing in GZDoom with default compat I ran into an issue with map02, sector 222 rises twice due to the 2 W1 lines. Of course the intended compatibility is Doom, in which case the second line will be wasted as you run through the first time so the problem won't happen; but looking at your sector setup I couldn't figure out why is there a sector with floor height 192, causing the problem, linked to the rising platform in the first place.

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A neverending arguing? Sure, why not.

Cynical said:

Uh, what? Jungle bases, Cities, Redrock mountains, Gothicy-hell-castles, brown-wood-outdoor-levels, earth-mountains, various styles of tech-bases; that's three themes? I think not.

Bases, Plutonia-like, hell. That's how I see it. But of course you can let your imagination fly and think of a plethora of different vistas that aren't really break the circle.

Cynical said:

Yes, UR is much harder than Vanguard. 83% of Vanguard (namely, the first 10 maps) is really easy. Map 12 is pretty damn hard(and harder than anything I've seen so far in UR), but that's one map out of 12. UR is more consistently challenging.

First of all - I don't consider Vanguard to be hard. Then again - I don't consider UR to be hard either. In fact, these sets are on slightly different levels: while Vanguard tends to be slaughterous at times and its enemy placement forces the player to move constantly (I must admit that I adore it when things go that way, everything else is just boring), UR is completely conventional. And this is why I mentioned 1996 if you point that out - the formula is exactly the same. Plutonia already had it all, and had it better handled. Disagree and I'll consider you an apostate.

Cynical said:

UR's got a lot more variety in its encounters; more varied enemy placement (how many Arch-Vile snipers are there in Vanguard? Not many...), more varied map style (just compare maps 11 and 20!), more tricks and traps as opposed to static placements in fairly open areas.

Indeed? And I thought it's all about shoot some enemies-yawn-activate the switch/pick up the key-activate the trap-shoot some enemies-yawn... Silly me. Oh yes, there are some sandbox-like maps (with map19 even being pretty fun for the most part) which are better, but there's not many of them among 32 levels. And that constant shotgunning, always fucking shotgunning that makes things even slower. That's demoralising, man.
And fuck map11. Seriously.

Cynical said:

Also, UR's Cacodemon usage (aside from that one stupid one at the start of map 05 that's neutered by the block monster line) is A+++++, and it's got some really unique usage of things that happen after a certain amount of time has passed in the maps (Such as Caco-swarms being unleashed in map 17, or the timed spawns in 20).

Heh, I think Combat Shock uses cacodemons better, you know. The more - the merrier. And timed spawns... it's hard to surprise anyone with it nowadays, I even did it myself if you ask me.

Cynical said:

This isn't to say that UR is better than Vanguard (the jury is out on this one still; Vanguard definitely looks better, has better early maps [UR doesn't really hit stride until map 17, with maps 6, 9, and 12 being exceptions to this] and it's overall more polished, but UR tends to have better individual combat situations).

Look, you nailed it. Should I wage through the bland half of the maps in hope of finding something decent? I'm not that desperate in looking what to play. And I really don't know what do you mean by better combat situations. As I said before - I already saw something very similar very long time ago. Numerous times. In a row, dammit.

Cynical said:

Insane.

We're all slightly insane, yep.


@ Tarnsman: it's an exaggeration. But I actually agree with your point.

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OK, this has reached the point of bickering, and is not adding anything of value to the thread. Stop now, please.

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Demonologist said:

shoot some enemies-yawn-activate the switch/pick up the key-activate the trap-shoot some enemies-yawn... Silly me.


Man DOOM really is a boring game isn't it, considering that can be applied to literally every map ever made.

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Demonologist said:

A neverending arguing? Sure, why not.

troll detected. piss off now. (ed: ninja'd by grazza, nvm.)

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Played the first 10 maps. liked it very much so far. I can feel the progression getting slowly intese and hard and some traps were really a bitch in the later levels.

Design speaking, I really like the ceiling metal shapes in the outdoor areas, sometimes I just stop to admire them for a few seconds and I think it's really cool.
The only thing I didn't like so far is the texturing itself. I'm really don't dig the cc4 tex pack and some rooms looked really boring and ugly only because of the texture itself.

Looking forward for the next 22 maps. good job on this megawad.

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