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Yeah, that's a bad thing. No spawn should be left with just a pistol for long in my opinion as it is very frustrating and shows bad balance if other spawns are near weapons.

@nub_hat I know lad it'll be sorted later when I'm home (hopefully) I'm getting sick of that bridge already.

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map24: Snakes - Marbled Blue Cheese

That's a pretty cool FFA layout! I like the flow, the open space... it should be fun. However, there are some mistakes in the approach:
- The pits are, imo, needlessly deep. If they're just shallow enough, people can still keep fighting while on different levels. Also the two teleporter pits should have another means of escaping them (some steep stairs? quick lifts?), or you risk someone camping the tele destinations in higher player FFAs.
- This is a small one, but should be worth fixing for general goodness: I dig your stairs and steps, that gradual build is VERY DMish, however those blue marble "railings" should be climbable (=stairs themselves) as well. They're too steep from certain directions. It would add to the freedom of movement, which is already high (=sweet).
- That lift facing the marble goat face should be faster (nigh-instantaneous), otherwise a guy on top can spam the face and kill everything below. Also that poor spawn there should rather be on the RL behind the corner, otherwise he's sooo toast.
- Speaking of spawns, you should absolutely put them over weapons for instant pickups. Most of them should be SSGs, too, unless it's some of the spawns close to more powerful pickups - like t.64 and 67 are close to a teleport to something better, so you correctly gave 'em chainguns. Except they're not directly on top of them, of course. Improved, more frenzied pace should be a desirable effect. Don't be afraid to remove (at least) two spawns entirely!
- Switch the floating island RL with the PG, I think it will work better that way. The PG on that ledge just asks for camping... which will be partly true anyways, make it smaller so people can shoot the guy camping up there from below. Also that void needs a midtex fence. :) Meanwhile, the PG should be an interesting prospect on the floating isle, because it's only a limited camper spot... a guy with a chaingun can take him down from the main area anytime, while the rapid shot weapon should be better for some sort of showering/bombardment/spam over the whole main area, hehe.
- I kinda want sectors 70 and 71 to be lifts, it'd provide another way out of that pit and a guy below could sneakily trap a guy who's trying to run over them, heh.

map25: Olympus - The Aftermath of Taco Bell

Quite solid layout, this should work just the way you intended (if you did intend anything, eheh). I think with the way you set things up and the manner of weapon balance it's okay to leave the spawns just a few strides from the nearest SG/anything else.

However there still might be too many of them - in the SSG room, I'd remove spawn t.14 and keep just two in a 180-degree spread, so a guy lording over the center of the room has more trouble keeping both of them in check. I'd also get rid of one of the chaingun spawns next door, no need to have them fight over it, especially because a follow up pistol spawn is extremely frustrating against a running chaingun. I'd say spawn t.7 is unnecessarily disadvantaged by spawning between candles in an alcove... switch the spawn and the gun. :)

Last thing to consider - maybe a second SSG to put more substance to the "weaker" part of the map? I mean southeast, instead of the chaingun, perhaps. That should liven it up.

map 26: TheMionicDonut - Count Chocula's Spooky Castle Adventure

SSGs on spawns are definitely the way to go here, that should work nicely. Count Chocula himself is an interestin addition and I'm surprised how well monsters are being put to use in -13, heh.

Lose the cell charges around plasma and BFG, if you want to have them somewhere, put them one a piece on those weirdo blocks (sector 30, 37, etc).

I think the teleporter shouldn't be two-way. Going from plasma to BFG is too easy and means more ammo for the big gun with little to no fight. Can the plasma side of the teleporter lead... on top of the burger? :D Also drop the medkit at the BFG, why help that guy. :P Dunno what your opinion is about potentially rjumping to the BFG on NS flags... it'd take some rearranging to avoid that (bars instead the wall, the BFG behind them?) which might not be worth it, cause RJs hurt in Doom.

Speaking of the burger, it HOMs fiercely from the north side. So do linedefs 1025 and 1026 of the first crusher. Oh and I think the lift from the plasma cellar should be somewhat faster to make it less annoying to use. I'd normally protest Chocula's mega, but eh, maybe it'll be fun that way!

map27: Shadow Hog - A Good Ol Country Dinner

The map looks really nice and generally the layout is okay, but there are small problems that bring it down.

First of all, that SSG in the cave is basically impossible to get, because those are 24unit steps over some distance. You need to make them... 16 or something like that.

Second big thing: I really like the windows, but they're only good with jumping. Make them climbable to let people jump out at will! It's going to be much cooler instantly.

Now some weapon placement nags: pistol starts are not that cool. And what, um, southern gentleman isn't born with a shotgun? Put them under all spawns, heh. That meal on the dinner table could be a SSG! Also swap the RL with the plasma gun - I feel like the PG would make more sense in the cage (spray spam) and in the current version it's just additional ammo right after grabbing the BFG. Speaking of which: remove all of those terrible cell packs, heh. Also remove all the cell charges, the only place I'd put any would be the caves. I'd also make the BFG platform corrosive (some sort of minimum damage lava hill?) so no one can hang out there & camp.

Spawns: too many. I'd completely remove two from the house (say, t. 72 and 75), two from the outside (probably 63 and 101) and move one to the caves (163). You can switch it up as you see fit, but this would spread them out better without moving anything else.

Possible final change: move the BA switch closer to the windows (on the eastern house wall), so one can immediatelly jump out and rush for it - the way it is you just call the lift down for someone else to steal your prize.

map28: Tib - It's Definitely Edible, Just Try It!

Heh, interesting. This will probably end in bloodshed and crying, but so be it. :P Just a few pointers: I dunno if I like PG and RL being so stacked together, but oh well, let's see how that works. However, don't put those switches on top. Just make the ceiling too low for doomguys, so if they ride the elevator up, they hit their head and it automatically goes down again!

Also, no mega pls. You have SGs as the base weapons, soulsphere will be enough. Also remove the backpack and move the GA next to it on its spot so it's farther from the now-soulsphere. Also that cellpack is overkill, you already have enoug bonus cell charges everywhere - put two rocket boxes stacked over each other there for a nice rocket boost instead! Single rockets thrown around the map are so much less than cell charges, keep in mind. I guess that's it.

map29: nub_hat - Brick Sandwich

There's no way I'm touching anything in this brilliant masterpiece made of butterfly steaks and unicorn jizz.

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Okay, not sure what the problem was (I tried using different node builders amongst other things) and I still can't get the desired effect which is probably due to map corruption in early development (where I couldn't attach anything extra to a certain area without a massive glitch). I resorted to using nub_hat's solution unfortunately it doesn't look as appealing but it gets the job done. http://www.mediafire.com/download/r85zb3dvgdcbg2r/This+turkey+needs+more+cocaine+Nigella.wad

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map30: esselfortium - I Made Breakfast!

The simple circutastic layout takes the best from Hellbent and there are some extra vertical elements added as spice. Not as bad as the author name would suggest!

SSGs are definitely a good choice here, it should provide a homogenous playing field that only gets interrupted with the heavy weapons. RL is fine, but given the very peculiar design of the food jumps... I'd probably use the BFG instead of the plasma, which I think would be pathetically ineffective in such an open, wide layout. Just throw the 4 cell charges to the 4 winds so they're not as closely packed and it should be just fine, providing incentive to climb those stairs.

Speaking of the stairs... can those tilted side parts be wider? I felt them snag a bit if one strayed to the side of the mini-stairs. The BA right in the middle of the pool is fine... and just so you know, with NS flags it's possible to jump for the soulsphere from the roofed structure. Which is also fine.

map31: Jimmy - Steak and Kidney Stones

General layout wise and weapon/item placement, this is pretty much complete and discussing finer points would be excessive for such a project. There are some design hiccups that cramp the flow, tho. I think there should be more route freedom, to call it that way. The layout IS interconnected, so I don't see why the players shouldn't be able to USE it. :)

Basically, add some additional access routes to one-way "valleys". The RL trench (with the teleporter) could use some stairs or lifts up both sides. Sectors 43 and 91 should be tiny secret fast lifts. :) And the big one, s. 60, should be lower in its top position, so it creates a step between the two platforms and it's possible to run up without having to call the lift down and wait till it goes up again. Then you'll increase the pace loads.

(Oh and move the cell charges around the plasma somewhere else.)

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I'll be deciding on a map order late tonight after I'm off of work. I'm thinking going even-odds with the more expansive, chaingun friendly maps versus the more tight quartered ones as I think we could get an interesting flow going that way. I'll experiment some then.

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On that note, how difficult would it be to replace revenant sprites with Count Chocula?

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TheMionicDonut said:

On that note, how difficult would it be to replace revenant sprites with Count Chocula?

Heh :P. I'm guessing it would be fairly easy so long as you have some sprites to replace it with.

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Mechadon said:

Heh :P. I'm guessing it would be fairly easy so long as you have some sprites to replace it with.

And therein lies the problem.

Did count chocula appear in any games to get a sprite form that can replace the revenant?

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Okie doke, here's the latest update to Marbled Blue Cheese. I've implemented almost all dew-recommended changes and I can't help but feel that this is now 30 times cooler than before (and it's already way cooler than my first dm map, hooray!). The only thing I haven't added is a midtex fence around the void. Tried it, but it just looked silly every time.


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-Super Secret Burger (shamelessly copypasted from xaser) doesnt HOM
-Warps got moved around, per dews suggestion
-cell charges moved, per dews suggestion
-crusher doesnt HOM, because it was full of dumb on sunday
-medikit removed near BFG
-DYNAMIC LIGHTING (more to come, but doesnt impact gameplay)
-elevator now has 1 second wait time, per dews suggestion
-some cosmetic stuff.

Yet to update:
-Revenant becomes Count Chocula

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nub_hat said:

this bridge in "This Turkey Needs More Cocaine, Nigella" is still messed up in this new version here are a few pictures showing it
you gotta put textures on the lines being raised or it'll keep looking like this

The sidedef sector references are messed-up, here's what the bridge looks like when they're sorted out.

Bridge down (960x600 - 119k)

Bridge up (960x600 - 106k)

Now I just have to resist the temptation to shoot myself.

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GreyGhost said:

The sidedef sector references are messed-up, here's what the bridge looks like when they're sorted out.

Now I just have to resist the temptation to shoot myself.

This is actually a pretty quick fix 'em:

-Join all sectors that comprise the bridge together
-Set all sidedefs so that the back and fronts both reference the same sector (e.g. Sector 65 - this is known as a self-referencing sector)
-Join this sector with the dummy sector
-Create another adjacent sector to the dummy sector, set the ceiling height to 16
-Set the other adjacent sector's floor height to 136
-Move linedef 153 so that it spans across the 2 upper sectors so that a player can't fall without "lowering" the bridge

This is just an odd bridge because instead of being composed of a single, internal referencing sector it's actually several broken pieces. Everything else follows the same pattern as a typical bridge, though.

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Snakes said:

This is just an odd bridge because instead of being composed of a single, internal referencing sector it's actually several broken pieces. Everything else follows the same pattern as a typical bridge, though.

I tried rebuilding the bridge with a single self-referencing sector but kept falling inside and getting trapped, since it's too wide. Two narrower sectors work fine.

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Here is the fifth alpha of 32in24-13.



  • "This Turkey Needs More Cocaine, Nigella", "Chocolate Factory", "Marbled Blue Cheese", "Count Chocula's Spooky Castle Adventure", "Tap Water and Mayo Sandwiches", and "Home Invasion on Thanksgiving" have been updated by their authors.
  • Added stairs out of the lower section of "GRAVY, BITCH!" so it can now be escaped.
EDIT (12:22 AM PST): Hotfixed to add a map update because Nautilus flipped his goddamn lid over it. Enjoy.

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joe-ilya said:

Bridges and deathmatch don't mix, it should be a pillar instead.[B]

While I appreciate the idea, it won't work as it'll just limit movement around near that area. The idea of the bridge is so that people can still shoot underneath it and in order to make that space a bit more movement friendly.

@Snakes That doesn't sound that easy to me, probably due to my lack of understanding the terminology. I'll give it another shot later just for the sake of visuals. However, it's good to know what is actually broken as I was under the impression that it was built correctly.

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Got an update here for Marmalade Murder Mansion.

Marmalade Murder Mansion

More or less this is just a detail update, although some minor item and layout alterations were made. Let me know if there's anything I broke :P

I'm gonna try my best to detail my other 3 maps, but its going to be pretty tight time wise.

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map32: Jimmy - Eat your Tekgreens

Those double spawns are terrible, get rid of them. There will be enough spawns even without them anyways. It's a simple map, but it should work alright, the weapon mix seems to be balanced (even though the weaker spawns will, of course, get shafted a little). Also this is a case where extra cells for plasma aren't a bad thing - the weapon is in no way overpowered here.

I think the western area could use a way ("natural" stairs?) out of the sludge onto the cliff, interconnectivity = good. Speaking of stairs, those at the southern end of the central building and the ones in the southern cave could use "DMfying" a little - they're only accessible from ahead and your typical open DM stairs like that would be arching in a 180 degree fashion.

map33: Jimmy - Pie Flesh Consumed

Well, this is a concept piece, so the layout works under different rules than usual. I'll trust you with that, go experimentation! However, considering all the powerups and heavy weapons provided, just make all the CG/SG spawns have SSGs instead, imo. Those shotgun spawns just look like you'd be desperate to not fight and go hunt a proper weapon first, which can be confusing when it's all E4 weirdness.

Oh and... get rid of the double spawns. It's just not a good idea.

map34: Nautilus - Tap Water and Mayo Sandwiches

Now this looks much more like the traditional FFA stuff we've been grinding on ZDaemon for years. The Execs, Gothics, maybe even Onslaughts... although just SG/CG is the most common spawn weapon. That's gonna be a bit bloodier for freshly spawned meat, but I think SSGs on spawns would make the BFG nigh-impossible to actually reach because of too heavy defence, heh.

I think you don't need that many spawns - you've got 17, holy shit! Especially three of them in the NW corner of the map looks like free BFG frag harvest to me, heh. I won't tell you which ones to cut, but I'd definitely go to like 12 at most. Guy at spawn t.31 is so miserable, he doesn't even get a weapon... and spawn t.35 is partially stuck in the wall, so even spawning there is very rare (think Caboose spawns in idl map28).

Other than that... right, I have two small nags. That cell charge t.69 is kinda close to the plasma gun, I'd stick it near the SW rocket launcher instead. Oh and those trails of bonuses inside... I kinda hate how they're so inavoidable, heh. It's just my personal preference with a sidedish of OCD, but I like them stacked at the walls, probably the inside one, neat Quake style. Ignore at will, heh.

map35: Nautilus - Home Invasion on Cyber Monday

Hahaha... I so hate this. It's almost impossible to move reasonably, but I guess that's where the fun comes. Or does it? Silly idea, might actually work for a bunch of laughs. Worst case scenario: this becomes the new shoot!.wad.

Hehhhhh. All of them look like this. The texture has wrong height for tiling vertically or some other mapper technobabble, I don't really know. I also have a stupid idea to discuss on irc.

map36: Nautilus - Fast Food for Thanksgiving

Oh shit, the final bursts of creativity start incoming! Cute. The bowl totally needs a toilet rim block on the wall.

map37: Caek - Gravy Bitch

The map's on the jokish side, but there's still something to do to make it brit-like spam fun. Make all the height drops climbable, except the BFG drop - make that one so high it's not possible to jump even with NS flags. Make all the stairs wide and smooth and nicely gradual. Remove spawns t.12 and t.7 for less reason, move t.6 closer to the BFG. I'm thinking making it less profitable to take the BFG and go back to spam down the access halway - and that one spawn should be the safety anti-camper check, heh. That's all.

map38: RottKing - Welcome to Pizza Void

Silly joke map, but I like that some thought was still put to gameplay, heh. However, I'd say the cellpacks at the BFG are excessive and give the guy too much ammo, no matter his health. There's plenty of ammo for restocking in other places of the map. Had me worried there with the invul, heh.

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tried out the best duel maps and for sure Jimmy and Clonedpickle you guys can pat yourself on the back for these amazing levels "Steak and Kidney Stones" and "Kumquat Control" they are both fantastic levels for newschool 1v1 (kumquat is a bit plain looking though)

honorable mentions so far for 1v1 (haven't tried all the maps just a few of the small maps) are "Chips & Turkey Frenzy" by joe-ilya (would benefit from removing the invis though imo) and Brick Sandwich by me (very fast action try it out)

some more feedback here, I would like to see the weird stairs around the place in "Coca-Cola Factory" straightened out for better flow
"The Aftermath of Taco Bell" needs to have some guns moved on top of the spawns, it is a very very solid layout but all the pistol spawns are ruining it

almost forgot to post this updated version of Brick Sandwich (changed a few spawns)

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map39: Mechadon - Marmalade Murder Mansion

Good layout. I'd probably change two things: screw the blue armor ledge, add stairs on the other side as well for better navigation around the map (that section is only entered from one direction, could use diversification). Make the BA->GA, move the other GA in the rocket circle in the rocket box circle. BA is an almost certain 1v1 killer and is a possible pain in the ass in FFA as well, GA just works better in DM Doom. Second, I think it'd be nice if you could lower the soulsphere lift from below as well... maybe via some remote-but-not-too-far switch?

Also, too many spawns. 16 is way too much, you know yourself you had problems sticking them around the map so reaching weapons wouldn't suck for anybody. And I think it still does. I'd go to 10-12 max. I'm kiiiinda inclined to tell you to go the SSG-on-spawns way with just some being weaker or RL special spawns, but I dunno. It's easier to balance and it's just self-gratificating, because it saves even really idiotic designs and generally it's much more popular in FFA mode, on the other hand it might lose some soul in 1v1. If you decide not to, push the spawns nearer to weapons (or vice versa). Also ditch the extra cells, all of them. Recharging with plasma is enough.

Aaaand I just checked the updated version. Goddamit, are you kidding? Gorgeous.

map40: Mechadon - Tater Tot Tempest

Feels slightly unfinished... sector 30 looks like there's going to be something there and without the impassible line you'd be able to jump there from the soulsphere lift. Anyways, this will be a small intensive romp, so I'd say embrace the slaughter. Give every spawn a SSG and you can keep all the cell ammo and backpacks where they are! It's gonna get a liiittle bit brit10/11ish, but it might be more comfortable than trying to balance it out for SG starts or something (which I doubt would work on scale this small, with BFG and other heavy weaponry present). Oh and keep just 10 spawns or so, definitely don't put 16 here. :)

map41: Mechadon - UAC BBQ Processing

Oooo, I'm loving this layout. Reminds me of some of the techy crudreams maps. Very navigable and cat&mousey. Good idea with the BFG, this should be pretty good even for 1v1. That said:
- Way too many spawns. 10 is your target and give 'em SGs or something else (from CGs to SSGs or RLs if they get lucky, sure).
- Delete the backpacks. Delete the cellpack and move the plasma in its place. Cell ammo balance is god. Also change the medkit in that pit to just a stimpak.
- Remove the rockets from the northern bridge. This may sound silly, but if there's ever a 1v1, you may want to not alert your opponent by loudly picking items just because you want to get across a bridge. :P

So yeah, this should be good for both dueling and larger deathmatching, thumbs up.

map 42: Mechadon - Mekworx Blue Plate Special

Alright, this one should be mostly fine. No BFG makes it easier on cell balance. I guess you should just remove the decorative cell charges put around the plasma, heh. I'd say 12 spawns would be quite okay for this map, then you can also move weapons to them. It can be the stuff you already have in - all SSG all time isn't necessary here, but it's also not a precious treasure. Just give people whatever's closest and make them fight over RLs, the plasma an the powerups (the cellpack should also count as one, heh).

map43: Lupinx-Kassman - Pie in the Sky Dinner

More pretty maps! The layout looks a bit awkward and slippery at high speed DM movement, but if THAT is the gimmick, then cool. :) Spawn count is appropriate, finally. The bottom is supposed to be harmless? I expected a corrosive floor and was surprised (positively, I think).

The plasma side is a mite stronger than the RL side, so I'd ditch the 'zerk and add a soulsphere in that hidden closet. Or don't entirely kill the 'zerk... move it behind the pie slice. :) Furthermore, the cell pack in the top tower is too generous... the small cell charges at least threaten the player with falling. I'd say the cellpack could be converted into a second SSG, that'd also look more impressive from the bottom.

map44: Clonedpickle - Kumquat Control

I agree with nubhat, this seems like pretty cool map with a particular balance. The PG could be fairly powerful here (what with the recharges.. it should be safe to turn that cellpack into a charge or two), so is the sole SSG. I'm a bit undecided about the RLs, because particularly in OS with no mouselook they might suffer from poor upstairs performance, heh. Rocket boxes everywhere, but they seem mostly good for NS-style FFA. 13 spawns are on the verge of too much. Most of those issues are speculative, I don't feel strong on the criticism, it's mostly just personal preference, so soak up what you like.

map45: TheMionicDonut - Black Friday!


map46: Scroton - UAC Food Labs Nightmare

A small semi-symmetric arena with a central gimmick. Cool, there's nothing wrong with that, although not much to add either. :) Should provide some fun in FFA.

Oh, looking at the map in editor... heh, that's some mighty redundance on the door opening lines. Also for some reason there's redundance in weapon placement - every weapon is placed twice, with the secret sibling being multiplayer only. There's no need for that in a DM wad, heh. Finally, both Zdaemon and prboom-plus seem to have some slime trail issues with the inner wall. They're particularly violent in ZDaemon, but interestingly enough in a different place than in prboom, heh. Dunno what that's about.

map47: Tarnsman - Blue Cheese Mashpotatoes

A mid-sized SSG maze. Sure, let's have some. It should work fine (although I prefer more open layouts). I think the BA is a tad overpowered, especially because with jumping on, you can sweep it along with plasma. Make it just a soulsphere? Also there seems to be an errorneously placed cellpack (t.29) - ditch it entirely, just maybe have some single cells in the side rooms, not in the main hallway. You can help the map's bareness by adding some rockets as well. The rest is up to you.

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