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Katamori
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Hell Revealed 2 had some outstandingly great songs. Some of them (like MAP07 or MAP31) are so similar to metal songs that I can't imagine that they're not MIDI version of original heavy metal tracks.

What's the source and/or origin of HR2 songs? Can I find any informations about it?

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Old Post Apr 4 2014 02:40 #
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Jimmy
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I'm fairly certain that they're all original creations by Grave (all the heavy metal tracks) and Sam Woodman (the more subtle and atmospheric ones).

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Old Post Apr 4 2014 08:15 #
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T-Rex
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Ah, Hell Revealed 2 music. Some of them, particularly Metabolist's music, were funny, but they were nice original tunes. I particularly like Grave's music. Very energetic, dark, fits the overall theme and gameplay of HR2. A lot of them even sound like Egyptian mixed with metal.

Old Post Apr 4 2014 08:22 #
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Gez
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Jimmy said:
Sam Woodman

Yeah, his name is not a guarantee of originality.

Old Post Apr 4 2014 10:38 #
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T-Rex
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Some of Sam "Metabolist" Woodman's music for Hell Revealed 2 did lift from other music, if I recall. I think I heard a slowed-down rendition of the Icarus theme is Map05, there's a variation of "The Dave D. Taylor Blues" in Map21, and Map22's is a remix of "In The Dark."

Old Post Apr 4 2014 11:12 #
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Memfis
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T-Rex said:
Map22's is a remix of "In The Dark."

Heh, I wonder how I never noticed this before.
I love Sam Woodman's music, often quite repetitive but somehow just unbelievably catchy and sort of funny. I think darken2 map08 and map10 are also his songs.

Old Post Apr 4 2014 13:42 #
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Doomkid
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Map15 is almost certainly an existing death metal song. I think it's by Deicide or Morbid Angel or something.. Can't quite put my finger on it, but I have heard it outside of HR2 before on real guitars, I remember that quite clearly..

Actually, Im really curious about this one. If anyone can tell me where this riff is from I'll be forever in your debt. Like honestly, that's a badass riff.

Last edited by Doomkid on Apr 4 2014 at 16:23

Old Post Apr 4 2014 16:17 #
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darkreaver
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Doomkid92 said:
Map15 is almost certainly an existing death metal song. I think it's by Deicide or Morbid Angel or something.. Can't quite put my finger on it, but I have heard it outside of HR2 before on real guitars, I remember that quite clearly..

Actually, Im really curious about this one. If anyone can tell me where this riff is from I'll be forever in your debt. Like honestly, that's a badass riff.

I think it's an original. At least it's not Deicide or Morbid Angel or any related/similar band.

Maybe you are thinking of some cover song of the HR2 track? I think I recall hearing someone doing a cover of it with guitars and stuff on youtube (linked from DW some time ago).

Old Post Apr 8 2014 19:51 #
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Katamori
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I think he was that guy:

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Old Post Apr 10 2014 17:17 #
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Thyrbse
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The soundtrack in Hell Revealed 2 is incorrectly credited.

I was contacted via e-mail by a dude called "Grave" sometime around 1998-1999. He told me he was searching for some metal music in midi format for a Doom mod (Hell Revealed 2). He had listened to my midi songs on my website and politely asked for permission to use some of them. I gave my permission to use the songs freely.

Years go by and finally Hell Revealed 2 is released. And what do I see? 17 of my original midi songs have been credited as "composed by Grave". Doom Wikia says "composed by Grave" (well, not anymore as I just fixed it). People are posting these songs on Youtube labeled as "composed by Grave".

I must also point out that I have NOT composed Sam Woodman´s songs. Some people seem to be misunderstanding this.

Here´s a list of my songs in HR2 with false credits:

Map 2 - The Saver of the World
Map 7 - Zombi Rises From His Grave
Map 8 - Lost Soul
Map 14 - Thorny Wall
Map 15 - The Temple of Jugdment
Map 17 - Risen from the Dead
Map 19 - Stormy Volcano
Map 20 - Winds of the Destiny
Map 23 - Remains of War
Map 24 - Last Wish
Map 25 - Dance With a Skeleton
Map 26 - Nightmares of the Slaves
Map 27 - Inner Fear
Map 28 - The Pyramide
Map 29 - When the Sun Won´t Rise Anymore
Map 31 - Damned Spirits
Map 32 - Gut Knot

Original midi files can be downloaded in midi.zip here:

http://thyrbse.nn.fi/oldschool/

Thank you for you time!


- Pekka Marttinen / Petter Mårtensen
(also known as Thyrbse/Grimmu/Grim Reaper)

http://thyrbse.nn.fi/
https://www.youtube.com/user/thyrbse/

Last edited by Thyrbse on May 8 2016 at 16:12

Old Post May 8 2016 10:47 #
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SFoZ911
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Welp, it seems that Sam "Metabolist" Woodman wasn't the only one stealing other people's work.

Old Post May 8 2016 12:38 #
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WH-Wilou84
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Thyrbse said:
Years go by and finally Hell Revealed 2 is released. And what do I see? 17 of my original midi songs have been credited as "composed by Grave". Doom Wikia says "composed by Grave" (well, not anymore as I just fixed it). People are posting these songs on Youtube labeled as "composed by Grave".

A real pity. :/
Still, thank you for stepping by and for clarifying all that.

I'm currently listening to your other "unused" midis, and to me there's no doubt you're the original author of the "Grave" midis.

The "real" Doom Wiki ( http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Entryway ) should also be updated in the same way.

Old Post May 8 2016 12:43 #
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kuchitsu
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No need to talk about stealing so soon... It is likely that there was just some sort of miscommunication. I mean, a "thief" probably wouldn't ask for a permission to begin with. Let's assume good intentions until proven otherwise.

Old Post May 8 2016 12:52 #
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Doomkid
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Thyrbse, thank you for clearing up this long incorrectly credited bit of Doom pwad/midi history. It's understandable that a person who composed the songs would want credit for.. Well, composing the songs. I don't really see how Grave Metabolist (thanks Kira) could have "innocently" taken credit for something he flat out did not do, and the thread linked earlier shows that he was no stranger to stealing material and taking credit.

I love these midis!

Last edited by Doomkid on May 8 2016 at 14:51

Old Post May 8 2016 13:27 #
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HavoX
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Wow, talk about an interesting turn of events...

Old Post May 8 2016 13:32 #
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Kira
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Doomkid said:
the thread linked earlier shows that he was no stranger to stealing material and taking credit.

You are talking about Sam "Metabolist" Woodman, not Grave here.

It would be interesting to see if Grave went missing when the wad was packaged, hence explaining this error that would be someone else's fault. I think this is likely given this project's history, but we never know.

Old Post May 8 2016 13:34 #
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Jimmy
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Thyrbse, you have my apologies. As a musician myself, I strongly dislike my work going without the proper credit. :/ Shame there are people out there so eager to steal and miscredit.

Thank you very much for clarifying things for us all, and for the links to your work (I'll be checking out all the MIDIs in midi.zip). I have to say I've always been rather a fan of the heavy metal MIDIs of yours used in this project. I have corrected the Hell Revealed II article on doomwiki.org to include your name.

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Last edited by Jimmy on May 8 2016 at 13:56

Old Post May 8 2016 13:50 #
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Kira
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Honestly, I just see things unfolding like this (this is my theory, perhaps Grave stole everything, which would be a case of terminal stupidity since Thyrbse was aware of the project):

1998-1999: songs are used
2003: Andy Olivera takes this project out of Mordeth-state (or so, that's what I've been told)

- Hey, who should we credit for those songs?
- Ah, those were brought by Grave a while ago

Mistake ensues.

Old Post May 8 2016 14:06 #
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T-Rex
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I remember one time on Metabolist's ftp archives, there was a zip file of Hell Revealed 2's music, presumably for the beta version since most of Metabolist's music in that pack never made it for the final release, and it had Grim Reaper credited on the tracks that would eventually be attributed to Grave. At first I thought Grim Reaper and Grave were the same person, but with this revelation, I see that they aren't, and I suppose Grim Reaper was one of Thyrbse's alternate aliases.

Last edited by T-Rex on May 8 2016 at 14:50

Old Post May 8 2016 14:40 #
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40oz
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Speaking as someone who has managed projects before, its not unusual to accidentally miscredit someone in a text file when things are unclear. I dont think grave is around here anymore and its entirely possible he didn't review the text file himself to make sure the original composer was credited correctly, so Chrozoron just credited it as he thought it was.

I dont want to dismiss the fact that "stealing credit for something that's not yours" was entirely impossible, but if go easy on the accusations until we can verify that the offending people were pompous snobs or just accidentally mistaken.

That said, its nice to see the hear from the original composer of those tracks!! Its probably some of my favorite doom music! I hope well hear more midis from you!!

Old Post May 8 2016 15:07 #
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Thyrbse
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T-Rex said:
...At first I thought Grim Reaper and Grave were the same person, but with this revelation, I see that they aren't, and I suppose Grim Reaper was one of Thyrbse's alternate aliases.

Grim Reaper was my nickname at the time. Later shortened to Grimmu. Some people, who know me, have thought that Grave was also one of my many nicknames.

I don´t want to blame anyone for stealing my work. Probably it´s been just a misunderstanding at some point.

I used to exchange a lot of emails with Grave about music and all kinds of stuff. We were part of the late 90's metalmod scene (Impulse Tracker/Fast Tracker music). Grave was composing heavy grindcore type of music himself. I also wrote a lot of mails with another dude (Violator or something like that, don´t remember) who was Grave´s friend and fellow metalmaker as well. So it would have taken a lot of guts from Grave to piss me in the face like that if it was intentional. That´s why I believe it must have been a mistake.

40oz said:
That said, its nice to see the hear from the original composer of those tracks!! Its probably some of my favorite doom music! I hope well hear more midis from you!!

I do compose with Guitar Pro these days, but unfortunately I intend to release my music with real recorded guitars and improved drum and synth sounds :D But, as someone already noticed, I still have several authentic midi songs in my old midi collection, that were not present on Hell Revealed 2.

http://thyrbse.nn.fi/oldschool/midi.zip

Last edited by Thyrbse on May 8 2016 at 16:49

Old Post May 8 2016 16:39 #
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Kira
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'The Creeps' was awesome by the way! I sure wouldn't mind HR2-styled maps using some of those unused midi songs.

Edit: you might want to warn this Youtube user as he credited your songs as Grave's. I guess that would cover most of such Youtube uploads.

Old Post May 8 2016 17:05 #
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bzzrak
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Jimmy said:
I have corrected the Hell Revealed II article on doomwiki.org to include your name.

Sorry, but it appears that you haven't. It still says "XXX by Grave".
Or is this Grave fighting back? :]

EDIT: oops, thanks kuchitsu

Last edited by bzzrak on May 8 2016 at 17:21

Old Post May 8 2016 17:12 #
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kuchitsu
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Jimmy's edits are pending review.

Old Post May 8 2016 17:15 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Damn... hearing about all this taints Hell Revealed 2 in a way for me... :/

Thyrbse said:
Probably it´s been just a misunderstanding at some point.

I hope this is true.

If I recall correctly a friend of mine who posted in this thread, darkreaver, might know Grave or atleast know how to make him aware of this thread, and has a few mutual friends and lives in the same country etc.. maybe.

Last edited by DeathevokatioN on May 8 2016 at 17:52

Old Post May 8 2016 17:15 #
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kmxexii
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not that it means much but i just corrected this in my HR2 review

Old Post May 8 2016 17:25 #
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Kira
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Reading stuff like this in idgames reviews just became awkward and funny:

Grave's music for here is far beyond super legendary, almost as defining as stock music by Bobby Prince.

Old Post May 8 2016 17:33 #
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joe-ilya
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These unused tracks are super kickass! I'll definetly use them in a map and credit properly.

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Old Post May 8 2016 17:46 #
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DeathevokatioN
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joe-ilya said:
These unused tracks are super kickass! I'll definetly use them in a map and credit properly.

Same here, but Thyrbse has to give permission first.. would be really cool, since it's some amazing stuff. :P

Last edited by DeathevokatioN on May 8 2016 at 18:07

Old Post May 8 2016 17:54 #
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Thyrbse
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Kira said:
Reading stuff like this in idgames reviews just became awkward and funny:

Grave's music for here is far beyond super legendary, almost as defining as stock music by Bobby Prince.

You can imagine how funny I feel reading similar comments all over the internets. Sometimes it seems to me the music "by Grave" is what HR2 is best known for. I guess the songs can really stick to your head when you spend hours trying to survive each level :D

I am very thankful for all your support. It means a lot to me if even a few people get to know about this.

You can use my midis in your wads. I don´t mind. Just mention my name and link to my website and youtube:

Petter Mårtensen
http://thyrbse.nn.fi/
https://www.youtube.com/user/thyrbse/

Old Post May 8 2016 18:19 #
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