I have to confess something about BTSX

So, that's just me and my opinon, but I have to confess it cause I feel it wrong.

So we have 40+ maps in Back to Saturn X releases. They are hyped, and indeed, with reason. I love the textures and the overall graphics, everything is just damn beautiful, and amazing that it could be done in vanilla-compatibility.

Though, I can't feel the hype. The maps play well, they have nice layout & overall flow, even the graphics are nice as I mentioned, but... something's still missing.

I have to say, I can't enjoy BTSX maps as much as others. Maybe it feels pointless because of the lack of a proper story* (fix me if there is but I missed it!!), or there's something else, but somehow, even the great gameplay feels empty.

Does anyone agree?

Of course it doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the effort in these WADs, cause I do.

*EDIT: I meant a loose background story. There was one even for original Doom, and for WADs like Revolution. Not adding one worked e.g. for Alien Vendetta or for Clau1024 WADs, but here...I'm not sure.

You must not be reading the DWMC thread that much? There are definitely people who aren't feeling it in there, to a greater or lesser degree.

I haven't actually played E1 yet so I'm abstaining from E2 right now. From what I've seen of them, I think I'll like them. But I might be wrong.

plums said:

You must not be reading the DWMC thread that much? There are definitely people who aren't feeling it in there, to a greater or lesser degree.

I absolutely don't have time to read that. Only in cases when me or Lainos are mentioned.

I actually didn't play muc BTSX, but that was eough for this experience. MAP01 of E2 was actually GREAT though.

Katamori said:

I absolutely don't have time to read that. Only in cases when me or Lainos are mentioned.

Haha, fair enough. But in short, there are a few people who have issues with the gameplay on the whole, and slightly fewer complaints about the layout in several maps. I don't think there's anyone that dislikes every single map though.

In any case, you're not alone.

BTSX is a weird case for me as well. I was really looking forward to it after it was announced. An all new graphics project that looks really fresh and gathered some of the greatest talents in the community? I was waiting for the best thing since Alien Vendetta at least.

Then it came out and I was like... Okay, these are some professionally done maps. And that was pretty much it. There was no awesomeness, no great fun, nothing that would particularly impress me. It felt strange.

So I started thinking, why exactly didn't it work for me at all? All maps look the same? But that isn't true for the second episode and yet I have pretty much same feelings about it. Gameplay sucks? But I can think of maps with similar combat that I really enjoyed. The texture style isn't suitable for Doom to my taste? Perhaps that's the one but I'm not really sure.

For me BTSX was by far the biggest Doom disappointment. Ok, even bigger disappointment was not being able to understand\explain why it failed for me.

Memfis said:

Gameplay sucks? But I can think of maps with similar combat that I really enjoyed.

I believe btsx gets better if you replay it, but isn't really that enjoyable as a first-time experience. It's the closest thing to eternal doom since release of eternal doom, imo, even though it's vastly different from it.

The sheer level of hype around BTSX does nothing to help it either. Expectations are going to be much higher for everyone, and if it isn't to their liking, it'll leave a much bigger negative impression, due to its fame.

Maybe it feels pointless because of the lack of a proper story

I give it ten hours before someone from the esselgang makes a sarcastic comment about that.
And ten minutes after this post before essel flips out because his name is used to qualify the clique he's the public voice of.

Still, it does feel odd to complain about lack of story in a Doom wad, of all things.

The story of Doom?

Pick up guns. Big guns. Kill shit. Another day well spent.

Memfis: I can't say anything, I strongly agree. Calling BTSX a disappointment might be strong, also might even be true.

Phml: the fact that actually beyond anything, I love the works of essel. I still sh&t bricks because of Vrack to the Izzo, or because of his D2TWID maps. Anyway, I fixed my first post to avoid esselgang.

Phml & Nevan: bot of you are right, and I meant a loose background story. There was one even for original Doom, and for WADs like Revolution.

Not adding one worked e.g. for Alien Vendetta or for Clau1024 WADs, but here...I'm not sure.

What did you guys expect? They advertised high quality vanilla compatible maps and that's what you got.

frankly I think both BTSX episodes so far own the heck out of stuff like Alien Vendetta or Memento Mori and stand up as some of the best community Doom work ever... and considering the amount of work the BTSX team has put in, I don't even think it's particularly over-hyped.

The one thing I have noticed which is a little less than perfect about the maps is that not all of them have useful landmarks, so much as a series of really competent rooms and hallways - when I exit a level like that I find it harder to remember what I just played through and wouldn't be able to describe the level easily if asked. Then again though that might just be the feeling of being overwhelmed by quality.

anyway, my three favourite modern map-sets are now ALT and both BTSX episodes.

Yeah I can relate to Katamori & Memfis, I really can't get into the BTSX series, but I can't really pinpoint just why I don't like the wads. The textures are top notch, the levels are very well designed, & I don't really have any overall complaints about the gameplay. Yet I'm still not enjoying myself that much when I play them, it's almost like the wad to too well done, it's as if I can't appreciate how good the maps are without an occasional horrible map thrown into the mix. Or maybe it really was all the hype surrounding these projects, I went in expecting some of the greatest maps ever, but instead only got some good maps. Whatever the case even though I found them disappointing I can still see that they are very well done maps that other people can enjoy.

I'm not sure if this the right thread to ask this, but...

Memfis & Phml said:

Stuff

What did you think of the gameplay of Map09, besides for it being overly scripted? I ask because I respect both your opinions with regards to how a map plays and would love to hear them. :)
Is there anything that underwhelmed you about the map, Memfis?

the story of btsx is more in depth than doom 1/2

thank's for you're opinion, please make more topics like this.

Katamori said:

lack of a proper story*

*EDIT: I meant a loose background story. There was one even for original Doom, and for WADs like Revolution. Not adding one worked e.g. for Alien Vendetta or for Clau1024 WADs, but here...I'm not sure.

BTSX was originally 69 deathmatch maps, but the idea was scrapped to piss off 40oz.

Phml said:

I give it ten hours before someone from the esselgang makes a sarcastic comment about that.
And ten minutes after this post before essel flips out because his name is used to qualify the clique he's the public voice of.

Still, it does feel odd to complain about lack of story in a Doom wad, of all things.

It's funny to see you in here making the same tired accusations while calling anyone else predictable.

Map09: it's short and consists entirely of little fights in small scale areas, nothing grand or striking at all, so it feels a bit like a filler in this slot (would be better as map01-03). I dislike the chaingunners here: you can only see their heads and shoulders, so common logic says that they shouldn't be able to hit you from there, yet they can. The spiderdemon exploding into a bunch of revenants is cool I guess but seems like that's the only reason he exists? Avoiding his attacks at the start of the map is completely trivial and killing him with plasma later is just a prolonged camping exercise. So this level is just kind of there, it doesn't add much to the wad overall. BTSX would benefit from having less "just levels" like this one. Sorry if that's not the type of criticism you wanted to hear (judging the level as a part of the set and not on its own merits).

I didn't think that the gameplay was "overly scripted" though, not at all.

"I didn't like BTSX"

Was it the graphics?

"No, they're quite good, environments are great"

Was it the gameplay?

"Not really, I actually enjoyed it"

Was it the map design?

"No, they were all well-designed as far as I could tell"

Was it the difficulty?

"No, it wasn't too bad, I liked the fights"

So what's the problem?

"I don't get the hype"

The hype that was self-generated and not from anyone on the team at all?

"..."

k

All I'm really gonna say is, what hype? Show me where all this hype went on. People knew the project was in the works, and a release date was stated at some point. Aside from that, I dunno what all this hype actually consisted of, or what portion of it that might have actually existed wasn't delivered on for that matter. Not seeing any quantification in these hype arguments.

For my own part, and I tend to try to stay aware of goings-on in all corners of the community, the only time I heard anything about E2 was if I went into the actual IRC channel with the guys working on it. In which case I was choosing to hear stuff about it.

I'm sorry BTSX is hyped? WHAT!? Hype is what KDiZD did with massive countdown posters and constant "IT'S COMING!". If anything the BTSX team did the inverse of hype, often declaring the project dead, saying it would be done when it was done when asked and generally trying as little as possible to hype the project.

Also BTSX has a back story and narrative it follows pretty clearly in the WAD itself. The ship sinking at the end of E1 and you waking up on the shoreline in E2 wasn't by mistake.

Katamori probably meant something else, like "I'm not as thrilled as I was expecting to be", but chose a wrong word because his English isn't perfect, you have to understand that.

I swear, outside Brutal Doom, I've never seen so much threadspace dedicated to "I don't like this wad/mod." (In my admittedly short time here.)

I loved (and still love) E1. E2 I'm not really feeling at the moment. It's good, but (thus far) lacking the cohesiveness that I felt the first one had.

Even if it wasn't promoted much, it was a pretty eagerly anticipated project by a lot of people, which is maybe what was meant by "hype."

Salt-Man Z said:

I swear, outside Brutal Doom, I've never seen so much threadspace dedicated to "I don't like this wad/mod."

esselfortium is secretly Sergeant Mark IV! :O

I disagree we you here katamori. btsx delivers exactly what it meant to deliver, a high quality vanilla mapset with custom graphics, music and a narrative story.

no katamori said it did exactly that, but somehow didn't enjoy it. real good crits.

Huh...so many to answer.

Kles said:

What did you guys expect? They advertised high quality vanilla compatible maps and that's what you got.

You think so.

...okay, mostly you're right but "high quality" fails somehow if I can't enjoy the game as much as I expected.

yakfak said:

frankly I think both BTSX episodes so far own the heck out of stuff like Alien Vendetta or Memento Mori and stand up as some of the best community Doom work ever... and considering the amount of work the BTSX team has put in, I don't even think it's particularly over-hyped.

Well, yes, I felt exactly the same in Memento Mori as I felt in BTSX. Jus simply empty. Though, BTSX is better because of the stunning graphics.

Jaws In Space said:

[...]I can't really pinpoint just why I don't like the wads. The textures are top notch, the levels are very well designed, & I don't really have any overall complaints about the gameplay. Yet I'm still not enjoying myself that much when I play them[...]

THIS. Totally the same here.

jmickle66666666 said:

thank's for you're opinion, please make more topics like this.

Oh the irony...I don't give a f&ck anyway, you can leave the topic at any time.

Csonicgo said:

The hype that was self-generated and not from anyone on the team at all?

Either self-generated or not, it was there. But yeah, you were pretty accurate.

Memfis said:

Katamori probably meant something else, like "I'm not as thrilled as I was expecting to be", but chose a wrong word because his English isn't perfect, you have to understand that.

Exactly! I thought I was clear. Damn, life's so hard sometimes...

Salt-Man Z said:

I swear, outside Brutal Doom, I've never seen so much threadspace dedicated to "I don't like this wad/mod." (In my admittedly short time here.)

I'd never start such threads normally, I just wasn't sure that whether I'm the only one.

plums said:

esselfortium is secretly Sergeant Mark IV! :O

That would be a great background story for a Deus Ex mod, I swear. And we'd realise that esselfortium is the puppet by John Romero who still rules the whole Doom community in secret.

Nah...maybe I played "The Nameless Mod" too much times.

maybe you just plain don't like it? like, it is completely possible to acknowledge something as good but personally not enjoying it. really. you don't have to force yourself to like BTSX just because you recognize it as a high-quality project.

I don't see the benefit of this type of thread.

If you have a suggestion, make it in the project thread. If a project isn't up to your personal standards, make something better.

Lol, I got into the university again this year and they said they won't separate us into groups based on our English knowledge anymore. The reasoning being that the government gave everyone same opportunities in school so we are supposed to be on the same level. Yeah, right, of course the government totally did that and there are no good schools and bad schools, everything is nice and fair.