Valiant.wad - now on /idgames!

Going to have to play this it just looks so good, although I'm surprised you replaced the HK's/BoH's, I can never imagine a Doom wad without them.

Well this wad is certainly a pleasant surprise. :)

I've blasted my way through maps 01-18, including secret areas. So far Valiant is excellent. You took some bold decisions as regards to gameplay changes, most notably on the basic enemy cast ( i.e. Imps ), and even though I'm really not keen on gameplay mods I must say I like the changes you made here, it helps giving your wad a particular identity.

The Super Chaingun allows us to stunlock most of the heavier creatures, and I've found myself using it more than the trusty old SSG.

Removing the HKs and Barons is also an... interesting decision, to say the least. Fortunately their pyromaniac brethren are very effective and have the right amount of HP.

My only grievance so far is

@ Memfis : Wait till you reach the mid-way maps, you'll certainly find what you need.

As for the visuals, well everything looks very nice and polished. I like your rock textures, they can cover large structures while not feeling repetitive.
Great work skillsaw !

I think there's a small visual bug regarding the Arachnobrain thingy, when it is facing the opposite direction and enters its firing sequence you can see the ending sprite facing the player even though it should still be facing the other direction.

I've noticed that suicide bomber's scream is one of the exit sounds (when you press Y to exit the game). I don't mind it, it just caught me unprepared to the shock. Hehe.

Demonologist said:

Like, you can't even say what you really want, uhuh?

This has always been the case actually. I never could come up with a satisfactory explanation of why I like or dislike some map or wad. Like, say I play a map and feel a bit bored, so I start thinking... Let's see, oh, it's a totally linear map! That must be the reason! So I go on Doomworld and bash the author for his lack of creativity. But then I play Epic 2 map18 or something and totally enjoy it... So yeah, there is no consistency or logic at all in my posts, just random cliched "criticisms" that don't mean anything at all. Just ignore my stupid rants. :D

But if I tried to answer your question, I guess I would say that I want "challenge oriented" maps to be hard and to almost kill me a few times but still to be beatable on the first try. So if I try very hard, survive many tough battles and finally reach the exit on the first attempt then the map is awesome, but if I die at least one-two times somewhere in the middle then I'm like fuck this shit lol.

But still... Some of these levels play just like a clean up in some slaughter map. Like when you already dealt with the main opposition and now you just run around finishing off the snipers and all the annoying stuff. Especially maps 06, 10, 11, 13, they provide way too much space and only get exciting in cramped traps. But even the traps in this wad often allow you to escape to a safe place too easily (wtf end of map08? all that buildup and then you just run away to the start lol). So I'm still saying the wad is not hardcore enough for me. Yet, let's see what's the second half is like.

But still, I played 16 levels in one evening/night so maybe I don't dislike it that much xd.

Linguica said:

Green stuff

Yeah, I've run into this problem as well, map04 is particularly prone to displaying it. You can reproduce it reliably after going up the lift in the room where you first meet the arachnorbs, just hug the left wall and start turning. It's looking at the midtextures from a very sharp (zero?) angle. But I see Andrey already has a solution in the pr+ thread.

dew said:

You battled the map the hard way. The invis is a godsend here and the proper way is to rocketblast as many of the valley chainers as possible while being invisible. It is perfectly reliable!

Heh, this is the problem with using saves.. After running to the cave with the invisibility sphere I stayed there to clear out the manc/revs/imp snipers and by the time i was ready to move on that sphere must have run out, and of course I saved at that point not knowing of the bullet storm ahead.

Just goes to show you can never anticipate the idiocy of the player

I think I'll also post demos in chunks, as I'm feeling disgusting atm and am unsure if I'm able to keep it up at steady pace.

FDAs for 01-12. So far, so good, took my time to adjust to weapon/monster behavoir alterations, but now I think they're here for good. Custom monsters are also cool.
The only map I didn't like at this point is 08, experimental approach in gameplay has never been something I care for.
12 features a couple of notably harsh dick moves that I honestly didn't expect from this author, so it was the first map that killed me, and did so twice (ouch). I'm not saying it's something bad or worth bashing for, it's just that from now on I'll have to keep my eyes peeled, heh.

Skillsaw: Regarding the "no gameplay mods". If you want to put the effort in, a way to make it compatable is that if the new actors are not replacing things but rather are new ones. This unfortunately requires new DoomED numbers and thus map editing for a seperate ZDoom version. I doubt you want to go this far for some silly Mod player to play your pwad unintended and I don't blame you.

Alternatively, it looks like someone can just make a patch that loads after the mod so that it's more friendly. Out of the box the support for mods isn't that bad if someone makes a quick patch that doesn't force the player class to the Valiant one. This is thanks to the fact you put the effort in to make decorate versions of your new monsters and weapons. They would also have to make a script replacement that makes the "Do not use gameplay mods" script not appear.

The load process would be

Playersfancydoommod.pk3 - The mod
Valiant.wad - Your pwad
Playersfancydoommodpatch.pk3 - The mod that swaps the Valiant class back with the mod's preferred class.

If you're wondering I am playing as intended. I admit I mostly play pwads these days with some eriguns/smooth doom hybrid I baked up for personal usage. I'm having a lot of fun so far. Too bad the moon maps (I like space!) is the final episode. Something to look forward to.

Edit: Also

Player.WeaponSlot 6, CryoLauncher

Where is this CryoLauncher? Was this cut?

-Ammo capacity (No idea how to change this TBH)

You can make a new ammo type. I'm guessing this is regarding the Super Chaingun. This wiki article is helpful for that if you're interested.

I just played through the first six maps on UV, PrB+. So far it's been amazing. This is one of the prettiest wads I've played, and I happen to like gameplay that involves loads of weak monsters.

More FDAs, for maps 32 and 16-21.

Arachnotrons seem to be bugged in ZDoom based ports. They go to their 20-tics long waiting state after Pain state. The DECORATE code says:

Goto See+1
Goto See

But in the game, I can see them going into See anyway. Both in ZDoom and Zandronum.

finished the first episode:

MAP06

yeah I noticed something strange about the arachnotron animation too, but what was even stranger and more cool was the fact that the brain leaves its owner when it dies, and continues fighting. this might just be crazier than All Hell is Breaking Loose as far as I'm concerned. this map fills the flooded city trope well, with mild platforming and decent combat (too many imp snipers though). the spiderdemon was made easier due to the invisibility right before it. good map.

MAP07

I had a gut feeling that the tags for this one would release those nasty archies, so I tried being passive here to find out what can crush those barrels and kill them. turns out not killing the mancubus was a good thing as I just killed everything until finding a certain switch, which upped my kill counter a bunch. strangely though, after pressing it and killing the mancubus, one archie managed to survive somehow. I don't know but I don't care because he's easily dispatched due to barrel damage anyways. the cyberdemon fight near the end was okay. very unique use of tag 666.

so the sets end like actual episodes? in that they put me back on the menu? pretty cool. though the green font can be a bit hard to see with the green background just behind it.

Map02 – Kills – 100, Items – 100, Secret – 66. End Health – 69, Armor 0. Death Count – 4. Bullets – 45, Shells – 9, Rockets – 0, Cells – 20

Couldn't resist playing another map before breakfast. Pistol-starting on UV.

Smaller map, fewer monsters, but more intense combat. Unlike Memfis, I'm not a good player, merely a determined one, so I got killed 3 times in a row trying to Rambo the start. Okay, that failed. ;D So many hitscanners, so well backed-up by the fast Imps, and those damned windows made it hard to take the critters out fast enough because they kept going behind the walls. This caused me to start camping the map so I could tackle the areas sequentially. Mainly, I ran for the single shotty and armor, then ran back to the start area and started picking monsters off. This made the map feel a bit front-loaded, as most of the action after this was fairly easy until the yellow key trap, where I almost survived on the first try doing it Rambo style, but then went back to camping by staying on the switch platform when the Cacos are revealed, killing them from there instead of running away, then the Manc and Revvie on the opposite side. After that, Job 1 was to find and eliminate the roaming PE with the wonderful new chaingun. Loved it! Then a bit more camping before the final Rambo run against the remaining Revvies. Ran out of rockets and bullets and had to shotty them to death. Was down to 19 health after taking a rocket in the face, but that was just enough to survive the final battle, after which I picked up some ammo I would have liked earlier, plus the Medikits in the exit. Many thanks for sticking to the traditional 2 Medikits there, a real boon for continuers, though I'll continue pistol-starts and will go to lower difficulties if/when UV becomes too difficult. Either that or I'll stubborn my way through UV so I can see if you're able to break Dobu's record of 85 SteveD pelts in one map. ;D

A nice map overall. It does encourage camping for players at my skill level, but even so, there's a lot of giddy-up action where you have to move your ass fast or die, and that's what makes it fun.

BTW, the secrets I discovered were the gimme Soulsphere and the Zerk, the latter being more of a health bonus because there was too much fast action with hitscanners for me to go on a punching spree.

Who knows, I might manage another map today. It's pretty addictive so far.

I've got a few notes on MAP08 I'd like to mention

Minor thing: In the cave leading to the lift in the area behind the yellow key door I recommend making that cave look a little different from the other caves to make it clearer that it's the one with the lift.



The first time I played this I hit the switch and I wasn't sure what it did, I didn't hear the lift, so I thought it did something in that twisty trail to the RL area.

I also recommend brightening up the lift sector so it's easier to tell if it's raised or lowered quickly, since the area is brownish looking when it's lowered and brownish when it's raised.

starting 2nd episode:

MAP08

no SSG sucks, and a lot of running around trying to get any weapons. the blue key path sucks hard when enemies act like they are on -fast, but I found an invulernability in the blood pit which helped somewhat. the crushers were okay but the combat took longer than expected. too harsh for a level this early in the megawad.

MAP09



that was insane, I wonder if some of the later maps will be this hard on ITYTD.

Getsu Fune said:

that was insane, I wonder if some of the later maps will be this hard on ITYTD.

My only experience with this WAD thus far was launching headfirst into Episode 5 on Hey, Not Too Rough. It felt like I'd accidentally selected Ultra-Violence. My own fault for starting with the very last episode, of course (I wanted to see the lightbridges in MAP28 :<), but the point here is that yes, the later stages really are going to be plenty challenging.

This is going to be a long post, and I'm going to try to address all the issues I can here but even if I don't address your comments directly in this post I've made a local note of an issue.

First, thanks for all the responses, this has been quite overwhelming both in terms of the general positivity reception and in terms of its volume.

Now, specific stuff....

Phml: I'm seriously considering slightly lowering the speed of the imp ball and possibly also the HK replacement's attack. The current numbers aren't set in stone and I'd be interested in hearing anyone's opinion.

Mouldy, dew, others regarding MAP10: Yeah the intended way to approach the map is what dew spelled out above: grab the invis, really quickly kill all the chaingunners with the RL, and then continue with the map. Unfortunately I don't think I managed to convey that well enough, and I'm looking for any input how to make that more clear.

Mechadon: Sorry about that. Pretty big oversight on my part. I'll include a fixed version of the key graphics in a future release.

[WH]-Wilou84: Glad you're enjoying it. Yes, I was intentionally very trollish with the monster in your spoiler. I can definitely reevaluate the placement in some parts. Also, thank dew for that one on MAP16 :P

BlackFish: Let me make it clear that I have no issues with gameplay mods, and I totally respect that someone might want to play this with a gameplay mod. Hell, I might want to, it'd give me a reason to play it again. The reasons I warn about gameplay mods are purely out of my desire for prB+ compatibility. Technical limitations forced me to make a decision as to whether I would include modified/additional monsters or support gameplay mods.

All that being said, if someone else is willing to do the grunt work of going through the Decorate code and creating new DoomEdNums, giving me specifics as to what I should change/remove to ensure compatibility with all mods (including DeHacked stuff, Decorate stuff, the ACS, really anything), I'd be willing to release an alternate, ZDoom-only version that would work with any mod. I do not have the knowledge about mods and how they interact to do this by myself, and I'd want to limit my work to only touching the maps only. I view this as a better solution than forcing every mod maker to make a patch specifically for Valiant. Note that if I do this it probably won't be released until I finalize the maps for the default version.

Also, regarding the CryoLauncher code, that's a vestigial artifact from another (very old, very dead) mod I was working on that I used as a base.

scifista42: Good catch on that Arach bug. I've fixed it on my local copy. There's also a bug Tarnsman discovered where the Decorate version of the Baron replacement doesn't call A_SCREAM on death, which I've fixed locally.

Also, if anyone with Eternity knowledge would be willing to make an EDF version of the final boss (you could use the decorate version as a source) I'd be really grateful.

All right, I think that's it for now.

skillsaw said:

Phml: I'm seriously considering slightly lowering the speed of the imp ball and possibly also the HK replacement's attack. The current numbers aren't set in stone and I'd be interested in hearing anyone's opinion.

The fun factor of fighting imps / knights in Valiant has been only improved by increasing the projectile speed to become more of an immediate threat. They're just perfect as they behave now, IMO.

skillsaw said:

scifista42: Good catch on that Arach bug.

I hope that you haven't missed my bug report about MAP04 here: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1342961

skillsaw said:

Phml: I'm seriously considering slightly lowering the speed of the imp ball and possibly also the HK replacement's attack. The current numbers aren't set in stone and I'd be interested in hearing anyone's opinion.

At first I thought the imps were too OP and they definitely bleed you a lot throughout the entire game, but you've managed to provide for that with extra health. With time, particularly during the repeated January playthrough, I was able to rewrite my Pavlovian reflexes to imp attacks and generally learn to Never Stay Put For Too Long In The Open and move a few steps every few seconds, heh. This made a hell of a difference, so I'd say people just aren't used to the new pattern and it's going to correct itself when they find the new strats themselves. Maybe add more health on lower difficulties instead?

It might be worth it tweaking/slowing down the pyroknight fire though. I have to admit I still haven't found a reliable dodging pattern against his attack. The guy's attack is very fast, long and almost continuous, so even if you dodge, he just creates an arc of fire and you can't ever cut back like when dodging mancos or cybs. The attack is pretty much unavoidable in tight places, too. The brutality of their attacks makes them my new favourite infighters, but it's pretty bad when two or three of them triangulate your position, heh.

Mouldy, dew, others regarding MAP10: Yeah the intended way to approach the map is what dew spelled out above: grab the invis, really quickly kill all the chaingunners with the RL, and then continue with the map. Unfortunately I don't think I managed to convey that well enough, and I'm looking for any input how to make that more clear.

Ummm... another invisibility sphere available somewhere in the valley? Perhaps on lower difficulties only?

Also, thank dew for that one on MAP16 :P

Yeah, blame me when I could hear you clapping with excitement over irc when that idea was born. :P
Frankly, I think the start of map15, map21 and especially map26 are worse. They are at the beginning of the map though, heh.

Skillsaw: This is one of the best megawads we've had in a while and it shows that you put so much work into it. So a few things you should keep in mind as the artist who created it:

Don't add the zdoom stuff to make it mod compatible. Blackfish is sensible is his post, but really this is a mod on its own and honestly adding stuff you didn't plan for it would probably ruin it and end up giving you bad reviews: "This isn't good with Brutal Doom..blah blah blah.." So just leave in incompatible so that zdoom trolls are out of the picture.

Also, I don't really think you need to fix the fireball speed. It's just something we'll have to get used to as players. That's good, the first time we met imps our first time through Doom, the same thing happened, we died a lot because we didn't know how to dodge yet. It feels new. I like it a lot.

General Rainbow Bacon said:

Also, I don't really think you need to fix the fireball speed.

I support. Already liking it as is.

Basically pyroknights see me and aren't infighting = ohshitohshit where's my CG/RL (for stunlock/fire&evade respectively). Supermancos aside, they're the main reason why SSG isn't the default cruise weapon. And having just said that, I realize they should stay as they are, haha.

map22-26 FDA

General Rainbow Bacon said:

Don't add the zdoom stuff to make it mod compatible. Blackfish is sensible is his post, but really this is a mod on its own and honestly adding stuff you didn't plan for it would probably ruin it and end up giving you bad reviews: "This isn't good with Brutal Doom..blah blah blah.." So just leave in incompatible so that zdoom trolls are out of the picture.

Damn Doodle Broom kids ruining all the fun!

Anyway I have a solution that would make it easier for weapons mods at the very least. You technically don't need to define a new player class since AFAIK the only thing new with the player is that he gets new weapons that are replaced old ones rather than new actors. Remove the new playerclass, the keyconf referencing to it, and the reference towards it in MAPINFO, and you'll still have your new weapons that the player starts with and receives during the course of the game (that being the pistol and the super chaingun).

IMO the text script is rather intrusive and a boldy worded note in the readme is all that's needed.

BlackFish said:

Damn Doodle Broom kids ruining all the fun!

Anyway I have a solution that would make it easier for weapons mods at the very least. You technically don't need to define a new player class since AFAIK the only thing new with the player is that he gets new weapons that are replaced old ones rather than new actors. Remove the new playerclass, the keyconf referencing to it, and the reference towards it in MAPINFO, and you'll still have your new weapons that the player starts with and receives during the course of the game (that being the pistol and the super chaingun). This way, the way someone would play a weapons mod would be to load it before Valiant and call it a day.

I *think* I had it set up like this at some point and the new weapons were unselectable in Zandronum, but I might be wrong.

Seems to work in Zandro (1.3).

BlackFish said:

Seems to work in Zandro (1.3).

If the fix is that simple then I will implement it.

I think the issue I have with the imp fireballs is that when you are sticking imp snipers up on shelves, at the old speed you could afford to ignore them at the cost of dodging a constant harassing fire while you deal with other stuff, whereas at this speed they feel like a high priority threat and must be cleared out asap, which kind of slows things down for me.

But like others have said, it might just be a case of adjusting to the new regime.

Holy cow...skillsaw, you've been one of the most inspirational mappers for me since you released Vanguard. I think I had an unintentional orgasm when I realized you have a megaWAD now. I mean...wow...just wow... Gonna try to make a walkthrough recording of it as soon as I can.

I spoke a wee bit soon. The player class fix is still a good idea (it allows the mods to at least work), but I noticed that after a bit of testing, the player still gets the super chaingun regardless of the mod being loaded before Valiant (since Valiant has a "replaces chaingun" as well as the mod). I would still have the note regarding the gameplay mods but add a bit saying that a small patch would be needed if you want it fully functioning.