The DWmegawad Club plays: Scythe 2

I guess I'll join the bandwagon of "well, this is my favorite megawad, so I'll post a few thoughts"

map01:

A bit more garish than I recall, I guess I'm just less infatuated with gothy maps that I used to be. Very simplistic, both in layout and visuals. I think one of the best attributes of the scythe and scythe2 wads is that they're great "ambassador" mapsets. That is, they can be appealing to those who've never played the game before because they're not offputtingly difficult or super-complex, and they're also quite clean, visually. When I was getting a friend of mine into doom (who had not previously played it) the scythe wads were definitely the most fun we had playing through (he wouldn't touch my maps with a 29.5' pole, I tried :p). Nice punchy levels, simple layouts (that still loop around and interconnect nicely), low difficulty, minimal dickery. Not super-exciting for veterans perhaps, but a solid introduction imo.

Ok, time to revisit this wad. I don't think I ever played it with pistol starts so that should be interesting.

Map01 - “Castle Entryway”

Simple opener, fairly easy. One thing I seem to remember about this wad is that the difficulty starts fairly mild and gradually builds to insane by the end. I think for that reason I never really remember the early maps, its not that they are a bad or even mediocre, I guess its just that they are over quickly whereas the later maps involve a lot more dying.

Yeah, I hated the bridge when speedrunning this map, breaks all the damn time. Always make bridge triggers non-orthogonal, ideally even duplicate them. Pig hall is also hell, bad for uv-maxing too (just dumb luck with RNG, from speedrunner's point of view there shouldn't be any moments in Doom wads where you have to punch out more than one or two demons). Plus the monster teleporter at the start can be a bit slow sometimes. I'd say the coolest part of the map for max is the cacodemon hall, it's fun to set up infightings there. j4rio can do 1:05 or so.

Level 02

Going with the "one level per episode" thing again probably. I've played this megawad to death.

This is my favorite level from the first bit. It's quite easy in nature and provides a small challenge in UV. It's certainly before the parts where the weird marines appear.

Edit: And yes I did miss the blue key by accident the first time. :P

gaspe said:

You'd better start to love the revenants :^)

Yes, that means you, Suitepee!

Map02 - “Rooftop Warzone”

Stylish, nice, small, simple, although still varied (teleport, lock, lift, switch, lava cross, jump down, open/closed area, backtrack) and fun. The challenge was reasonable even though I was playing continuously. Good map. I've got both official secrets (armor/shotgun, backpack/soulsphere) + both unofficial ones (megaarmor, megasphere).

MAP02

I've recalled this as some sort of urban map, but I guess it really isn't. Some of the bigger enemies are brought out, but they aren't really a problem yet.

The secrets are awfully generous, aren't they?

Map02 - “Rooftop Warzone”
First death, how embarrassing. Another decent romp with a couple of heavier monsters drawn into the combat. Not much else to say, short and sweet.

MAP02: Rooftop Warzone - ITYTD difficulty
Mostly the same as MAP01. You can pick up a Shotgun straight away from a secret if you're doing pistol starts. More stronger monsters are introduced here, such as Cacodemons, Hell Knights, and a Revenant. Picking up the Super Shotgun triggers an ambush consisting of Mancubi and Imps, which also reveals the Blue Keycard. The only part I didn't like was the lava near the end; there's no Radsuit and the stepping stones conveniently sink beneath when you try to walk on them. Taking the time to search behind the exit portal rewards you with a Megaarmour.

MAP02
Really easy map when you know the secrets and the uber-secret megasphere that is unmarked. But if you don't, prepare yourself a little more. This map is all about traps that kickbox and are somewhat easy compared to MAP01, the enemy progression seems cool in this megawad.

okay, I'll play, haven't seen Scythe 2 in forever so this is a good chance to return. GZDOOM as always, with high-res sound effects and a dehacked patch that makes it easier. ITYTD pistol starts, so I don't have to experience the pain and suffering of losing my loot at the end of each episode.

MAP01 Castle Entryway

man, it's been forever since I played Scythe 2, I felt compelled to return to it. a good starting map. only thing I don't like is that the yellow key is behind that lava thingie and just never seems so obvious. oh well, Temple of Love in MIDI form is quite lovely.

MAP02 Rooftop Warzone

my memory thankfully did not fail me here either. most of this map went well too, but I did notice something new. never actually got that megasphere before.

Map02 - “Rooftop Warzone”

Having said these early maps aren't so difficult, I forgot they aren't shy to whip out the larger monsters. I got a bit distracted and nearly died in this one, on the bit with the caco ambush. Decent enough map, though like the last one its a bit thematically vague, some kind of medieval castle or something.

So this thread made me want to sign up for an account!

Quick Bio: I used to play Doom a little bit "back in the day" but fell off it. Recently I upgraded my PC and for some reason fired up Brutal Doom, and I've been enjoying the hell out of it ever since. That being said, while I'm focusing on the Brutal Doom aspect of things, I do respect the original and frequent mods that aren't compatible. So with me you'll get the BD perspective, far from the standard Doom "hipster" style.

Map 01 - Since I was waiting on my account until today, 01 was ridiculously simplistic, yet established the game decently. (FYI We have been playing Zandronum COOP so I will have that aspect as well) Having COOP on this level was overkill as there really wasn't enough weapons to go around, as this is an introductory stage; so having weapon re-spawns is almost mandatory. Overall though solid level design and an awesome feel to the level.

Map 02 - More greatness and keeps with the same level style, which is awesome. This is much more of a classic style map and supported multiple players much better. The increased difficulty of Brutal Doom is a welcome addition as it makes the level more of a challenge, although still no issue for multiple people.

I may or may not chime in on 03-05 as we played "Episode 1" straight through and I may not remember the little details. However, I look forward to Episode 2 as it has an Egyptian theme which is awesome!

I don't think I've played through Scythe 2 outside of the cursory map here or there, but Scythe is one of my favorite megawads so it'll be an interesting comparison.

ZDoom, UV, pistol starts, constant saving/dying/reloading, mouselook, etc.

MAP01: Castle Entryway
100% kills, 2/2 secrets

Short and sweet affair, not much to say - the gothic textures look nice and the lava is a good color match, very Quake-ish. None of the battles are anything resembling tough, and I think I used the berserk and chainsaw more on this level alone than through the entirety of last month's Valiant.

MAP02: Rooftop Warzone
100% kills, 2/2 secrets

Another short map with not much to say. We get the first dickish move here, with the revenant teleporting in right behind the player in a small-ish room in the yellow key - plenty of health and armor to weather one rocket, though. There's also a small challenge beyond the yellow door with the cacos teleporting in and squeezing the player in a corner.

Anyone know what's up with the weird false wall with the baron face near the start? Why bother with the fake brick midtextures to cover it up - why not just make a normal wall? I don't see a reason it couldn't work...

1 - castle entryway

just to mention that i played it again, this time with chainsaw and berserk only. nice warmup map, let zombie heads fly. btw, there's a blue armor behind the exit portal.


2 - rooftop warzone

doesn't look like a rooftop to me, more like halls of the same quake style dark brown castle, which unfortunately still looks like crap on my monitor. there's a helpful secret with a shotgun and an armor right at the start. later it's boxing time, including a revenant guarding a soulsphere outside, and a dozen imps which are easily barbecued by 2 mancs. not spectacular, but very fun gameplay, especially the blue key part.


3 - castle gardens II

you start in a medieval prison cell where a marine left a shotgun and a backpack (the secret is marked with a blood stain), and escape to a square courtyard with a bit of resistance. there are 3 rocket boxes on the waterfall with the chaingunner, you can get there coming from the prison, but i fell and couldn'T get back to pick up the rockets. the moat is filled with lava, and the revenants which appear here are easily defeated, especially if you have said rockets.

Map02: Rooftop Warzone

This is an excellent map through and through. It's a short linear piece, yet it reuses space well, creates a feeling of an actual functioning place (a city block partially submerged into lava?) and throws in a dose of valuable verticality. It's still an easy opener, but a few deceptive barbs were put in to surprise unsuspecting players. It's fun.

As far as speedrunning goes, this map is a joy. The segment from opening the YK bars to jumping down from the roof with the BK in hand is something I enjoy grinding endlessly. The fun is somewhat spoiled by two factors:
1) The very first trick jump. It's a winding unprotected descending staircase over lava and you have to make a perfect stop&turn after going through an awkward door frame. That just doesn't work well in Doom and there's a lot of involuntary sliding and fidgeting with the mouse... uuughhh.
1) The indoor part after the blue door. There's a bunch of bumpy floor detail that doesn't mix well with wild mouse spinning and I kinda lose control of what I'm doing there.

That said, I think this map is one of the most fun nightmare maps to play even for, err, casuals, heh. It's pretty hard that way, but it's manageable and doesn't throw any really mean curveballs (hyperactive shitgunners in 01, vile room in 03). Everything works just right to motivate you to rush onward and tackle all the old challenges with a new twist. Easily one of my favourites.

thesubcon3 said:

So this thread made me want to sign up for an account!

Glad to hear!

MAP02: A better map, though the action is still a tad relaxed for my tastes. I know Alm is capable of a lot more and it usually manifests itself in the latter slots, but there could be a little more challenge here IMO. I also don’t think the gothic/dark textures are doing much for me here either, despite the welcome change from the typical E1 techbase stuff.

Map 02 -- Rooftop Warzone - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Hmm, likely the best map in this first episode, if memory serves. Dew mentioned something about it having the feel of a medieval slum beset by a sea of lava; the comparison I was going to make was actually map 19 of Demonfear ('Flood of Fire'), on account of the similar setting, similarly compact nature, and similar use of the vertical axis, though this being an Alm map there is generally much more danger from monsters than from the environment.

I would say most of the encounters are set up more to punish you for being stupid or unduly hesitant rather than to actively try to tear your jugular out (trickles of monsters that spawn behind you after a room and run up against a mid-level monster or a small group of weaker foes, etc.). The rooms are generally fairly small relative to the number of monsters they host, but they are also geometrically simple and often set with small dividing walls or other features that are easy to use as momentary cover. Not that you should need cover very often, mind; the ascending/descending loop that is the level's route essentially plays out as a bloody montage of multi-killing pockets of weak enemies with buckshot, bullets, and bare fists, only really requiring you to slow down much to bore through the sentient wall of lard loafing in front of the exit portal (incidentally, I recommend declining the blursphere in the lava-run outside, it generally does more harm than good). It's the sort of level that tends to play fast even if you aren't a particularly fast player, especially if you indulge in any of the somewhat opulent secrets (although the two most grotesquely powerful ones aren't flagged as 'secret' at all).

I reckon this is also the episode's most aesthetically pleasing map, with subtle but rich lighting contrasts (the soft glow of the candle marking the first secret, flickering lights in said secret or highlighting the chaingun in a later room, etc.), and simple peripheral details to add depth to the lava-shoebox tableau, ala the carved marble slabs leering over the lava-run or the skylight preceding the exit itself. The grey-green granite building and the pristine tiled rooftop also make a nice departure from the dour brown/black that characterizes most of the episode. I'm not sure I like the square cubbies stuffed full of rusty metal plating around some colored LED lights that are used to mark locked doors, they look a bit, eh, 'bitty', I believe is the word in trade at current. This is a purely aesthetic qualm, mind you, despite being easy to miss seeing at first, the flow/progression of this level is hardly obtuse. Oh yes, pretty nice BGM here, as well, a take on "Black Planet" by Sisters of Mercy. The instrumentation sounds a little cheap, perhaps, but the tune itself fits well. Come to think of it, Scythe II tends to strongly theme the soundtracks to its different episodes, and this gloomy gothic opening seems to use nothing but MIDI versions of gothic rock tunes--the first three are Sisters of Mercy, the fourth one is Fields of the Nephilim (although not one of their better tunes, I must say), and I don't recognize the fifth, something by Nick Cave, maybe?

Edit: Props to the Doom wiki for informing me that map 05 in fact uses a Bauhaus track.

Anyway, lovely map.

I'll join again for the first half or whatever until my interest flags.

Slot: 1
Map: Castle Entryway

I've played the first couple episodes of Scythe 2 before, but not in a while, so I forgot about the obvious shotgun secret until I had already finished the level otherwise. Cool 3D bridge, though I guess I'm so used to them now that I didn't even really notice it. I really like map 1s, and this is a map 1. I also like the castle theme quite a bit. The pig hallway had too many pigs I think.

Slot: 2
Map: Rooftop Warzone

Continuing with the castle theme, which I still like. You can tell this is going to be a step up from Scythe just by how quickly the bigger monsters start getting thrown at you. My favorite part about this level is how small and interconnected it is. It feels a lot larger than the geography it encompasses, even if it's still a quick romp. I actually died on my first go of this - I wasn't expecting the lava run to have quite so many imps, and the invisibility pack was a huge mistake. Dodged right into a cannon shot. The armor at the end of the map, not tagged as a secret, was a nice little addition.

Map03 - “Castle Gardens II”
I found this map to be easier than the previous one, you get the SSG and rocket launcher with plenty of monsters to tear through, especially the ending sequence. Nice map again with a slightly strange beginning where you need to go through two unmarked doors.

There are a lot of little unmarked areas where you get that "aha" moment. It's done so infrequently that it's not too terrible.

Yesterday we played a bit more and I really love the Episodic ramp up and the different locales, however going back to easier levels each time really feels off like they should just be "amped up" a bit. It could just be due to the limitations of the way we are playing though as we don't lose our weapons.

Also, one glitch we kept having with the Coop Server combined with Brutal Doom was on each 5th level it would basically end in seconds. Must be a weird way it handles that Kill exit within the program we are using. Not a huge issue but definitely wanted to mention it.

After passing on last month's WAD of choice, let's give this one a shot!

MAP01: Castle Entryway

This is a pleasantly atmospheric introduction to the WAD, compact in scope but not claustrophobic in layout, with a strong visual identity and good environmental variety within that theme from room to room. The crumbly brick textures are Hexen-derived but the map itself is less grand in scale than the typical Hexen castle - think more Dark Ages, less High Medieval. The map flows well and is never slow, thanks at least in part to the Sisters of Mercy track used for its BGM.

MAP02: Rooftop Warzone

Just as visually varied as the previous level but not quite so smooth in its flow, this level introduces more 'heavy hitters' in the form of revenants and mancubi, though the action is still relatively gentle and, mercifully, neither is first deployed in an environment that plays to its advantage. It's a larger and more open level than MAP01, but the artificiality of the setup - a castle plunked in the middle of a lake of lava - makes it feel more enclosed, whereas MAP01's boundaries were less strongly defined and visible. The imp/mancubus encounter is an excellent little piece of design - just enough monsters to panic you, not enough to trap you without significant carelessness, and plenty of opporunities for a deft dodge to be followed by the sound of imps screaming as a fireball volley tears through 'em.

MAP03: Castle Gardens II

A more open map again, though compared to the past couple of levels it feels flatter and less inspired; the big, square-ish courtyard dominates the layout but not really the gameplay. Visually, I am really digging the Quake-esque Dark Ages grandeur of this episode; the engine-forced degree of abstraction contributes to, rather than detracts from, the primitivism that surrounds the player, the low-ceilinged rooms and squat stone pillars and thick, crudely-wrought metal. The introduction places the player in a dungeon; it's a neat enough gimmick, but I thick it would have worked better as part of a more coherent and discrete castle sub-structure rather than as the start point of a series of corridors that simply wrap around the courtyard.

MAP03: Castle Gardens II
100% kills, 3/3 secrets

Another relatively unremarkable castle romp, feels kinda just like a bigger version of MAP01 with the indoor castle areas and keys surrounding a central outside rock structure with liquids flowing down it. Not much of "gardens" here beyond a greenish rock texture, heh. Combat is getting a bit teethier (AV teleport in behind the player, caco wave teleport, revenants at the end) but there's so much room to dodge/cover (and weapons easily provided) that it's still pretty easy.

MAP03 Castle Gardens II

the beginning could be a bit more obvious, but otherwise, another decent map. plays alright at the lava part but there's enough ammo for me. I managed to use rockets this time.

Map02: Rooftop Warzone

Another similar gothic "castle" or city block map. Still very short and small but the bigger height variations and the visible sea of lava make it feel a bit larger than map01. Opposition is mostly smal fry still and to counter the few more middleweights the SSG is given halfway through the map. The looping layout makes it possible to skip the early enemies and the SSG makes skipping them also the logical thing to do. Secrets seem unnecessarily generous but the rewards hardly change the way you can play here (which is reckless with or without secrets). I'm pretty sure I did not know of the Megasphere's existence before it came up in this thread but I managed to find it pretty quickly when replaying the map so it could be that I just didn't remember. Fun map all in all though.

Map03: Castle Gardens II

This one follows the curve set by the first two maps more or less; a little bigger and a little heavier. This definitely felt castle-like to me, the gardens part was slightly lacking but I think that can be forgiven. Detailing and architecture are true to Erik's style, here maybe the large and open inner courtyard doesn't really do favors for his simplicity but other than that it looks fine to me. Combat is still easy as additional space is countered with additional maneuvering space. RL makes its debut here and is immediately useful against the fatsos in the outer yard. Secrets are again easy to find and quite generous. I enjoyed the gimmick start too and thought the way out was quite obvious. Enjoyable enough overall.

Map03 - “Castle Gardens II”

This one is a bit more memorable for me, it has some interesting settings that feel a bit more like real places I guess (can't beat the old escape-from-prison motif for setting up instant narrative). Also the action heats up a bit with some awkward revenant encounters around the lava moat. It still gives you enough rockets and health to make sure its not massively tough though (and finding all the secrets probably helped).

Map04 - “Cursed Cellars”
An easy and quick map this one, perhaps the easiest since map01. The monsters are mostly small fry with just a couple of bigger monsters including a couple of archviles. No deaths technically but I did try and get the non-secret area where the co-op starts are located which includes a megasphere and BFG (it only took 2 attempts).

MAP04: Cursed Cellars

The strong, consistent themes within each episode of this WAD make it difficult for me to find much to say about aesthetics after the first couple of levels of each episode; all I have to say about the visuals here is "yup, that's a good, solid castle level, again." The intesnity ramps up quickly, with the player under fire right from the start and the most intense combat on the map coming in the northern outside area and the gallery overlooking it. Lots of optional areas for those interested in exploration over speed; the presence of two arch-viles makes me very glad for the plasma gun. :)

MAP03

Neat little map that feels like a short adventure. Escape from the castle dungeon.

A handful of tougher baddies in the courtyard proper, but you also get bigger guns to deal with them.

MAP04

Another condensed map. Clearing out the actual cellar is fairly helpful, as it contains a ton of goodies.

An archvile decides to be a jerk and try to squish me between himself and a newly ressed manc. Barely escaped that one.

Knowing the the episode ends soon really encourages me to use the big guns more liberally than I normally would.

MAP04 Cursed Cellars

oh whoops, I went for the SSG first even though the single shotgun was to my right. worked for the better really as everything afterwards was a breeze. an awesome level, my favorite in the first episode, with a nice music track (also in MAP03 of DVII).

I also remember watching j4rio's demo a long time ago (I think it was j4rio who made the demo?) where he uses an arch-vile jump to get across to that coop-only area with the BFG. I never really considered going to that place but it's cool that a seemingly multiplayer-only area can be accessed via an exploit. there should be more of that. ;)