Monument - an eps. 2 replacement - Released!

I'll be streaming this shortly on

http://www.twitch.tv/tomasoares/

EDIT: Sorry, I needed to do something else :/

Not many notes on the last levels. Very few things stood out (in an odd way). I think I missed one secret on E2M6 and one on E2M7. They both felt long, but never tedious or a slog. Certainly enough ammo for anything you'd run into (I always play continuous, if I can). Everything felt pretty solid. A fun romp.

I think it was in E2M7 where I hit a switch and a Baron teleported in RIGHT behind me and started attacking. Thought that was a bit dickish, but it was the only time in the episode I thought that. Wait, not true. In E2M9 when I grabbed the Plasma Gun and all the Lost Souls and Cacos appeared and I found you had blocked my retreat. But I was laughing when I thought "Damn your eyes!".

E2M7 - again appropriately named. I always use freelook (since I got tired of being shot by monsters I couldn't see on levels above me), so I really loved all the different levels; the monster heights; the nooks and crannies. But I could see where if you weren't using freelook, it could get very frustrating. I also liked that there were absolutely no rockets on the level (except the backpack). That little idiosyncracy made it just a bit more interesting. The only negative thing I noticed was that most of the monster closets around the outside of the octagonal room with the Yellow Key were almost useless; mostly target practice. When they start opening, you've already dropped the sections of the walkway with linedef tag 16, so the Shotgunners, Troopers and Imps can't get to you. I just got out of the way until they finished in-fighting and picked off the leftovers. Flying monsters were more of a threat.

E2M8 - The Cybers weren't nearly the threat I first thought they were. There were enough objects to hide behind and I was able to pick off the first outside one while he was busy with the Cacos. I pounded the other outside one with the Plasma Gun and actually pushed him off his platform across the teleport linedef without hitting the switch. Don't know if you realized that was a possibility. The inside two I could take one at a time with the switches, and because they teleport to below the platform and can't climb the circular stairs, they weren't difficult either. I was more concerned about a stray Caco coming up behind me. Oh, and I love the opening. The more rockets you pump out at the Imps and the more damage you're willing to take, the fewer Imps bother you later. And if you're playing Piatol start, you're shitting bricks until you move and teleport. Nice. Very nicely designed.

Oh, and did I mention, I LOVE the music. Well done, as always. I so enjoy your work.

EffinghamHuffnagel said:

I think it was in E2M7 where I hit a switch and a Baron teleported in RIGHT behind me and started attacking. Thought that was a bit dickish, but it was the only time in the episode I thought that. Wait, not true. In E2M9 when I grabbed the Plasma Gun and all the Lost Souls and Cacos appeared and I found you had blocked my retreat. But I was laughing when I thought "Damn your eyes!".

Oh, and did I mention, I LOVE the music. Well done, as always. I so enjoy your work.

Hehe! Yeah, well, I thought that in an episode of nine levels, it's OK to be a dick a couple of times.... hehe. I'm glad you enjoyed the episode. It's always nice to know that it wasn't a complete waste of time :) And yeah, the music is awesome! I'm really fortunate that Paul, Xaser and Jimmy let me use these awesome tracks of theirs!

Not gonna quote you, dew. You already know where this is heading ;)

New beta9 uploaded and ready for download in the OP. Here's the list of changes (since my previous post) based on the latest batch of comments:

EffinghamHuffnagel said:

E2M8 - The Cybers weren't nearly the threat I first thought they were. ... I pounded the other outside one with the Plasma Gun and actually pushed him off his platform across the teleport linedef without hitting the switch. Don't know if you realized that was a possibility.

It's not possible with limit-removing vanilla physics (pr+ complevel 3 and similar), but since even the textfile warns about using it, many people will default to Boom or even more advanced behaviour. Those pillars should definitely be flagged with monster blocking lines. The downside is that cacos won't be able to bite the cybs. :)

Oh, right... I haven't run into any issues with cl3, so that warning is overly cautious as far as I'm concerned. I'd recommend cl3 for demo recording, actually.

dew said:

It's not possible with limit-removing vanilla physics (pr+ complevel 3 and similar), but since even the textfile warns about using it, many people will default to Boom or even more advanced behaviour. Those pillars should definitely be flagged with monster blocking lines. The downside is that cacos won't be able to bite the cybs. :)

Oh, right... I haven't run into any issues with cl3, so that warning is overly cautious as far as I'm concerned. I'd recommend cl3 for demo recording, actually.

Hmm, I'm not sure it's that easy. The big pillars already have impassable lines as I early on noticed, that the Cybers could be pushed off their platforms. When I changed the fight, so they could be freed from these platforms, I had an issue with them being too big to be able to cross the teleport lines. I had to redesign those pillars so they could cross the lines. It's a compromise: There has to be enough space for them to be able to cross the lines while still making sure they can't be knocked off. I think the current design is as good as it gets. Or rather, it's the best I can do.

So, do you advice me to remove the cl3 "warning" in the text file? I tend to agree, but if there's one thing I've learned, it's that I don't have all the necessary knowledge about sourceport and general engine behavior to make me 100% sure it's the safest way to go :)

dew said:

It's not possible with limit-removing vanilla physics (pr+ complevel 3 and similar), but since even the textfile warns about using it, many people will default to Boom or even more advanced behaviour. Those pillars should definitely be flagged with monster blocking lines. The downside is that cacos won't be able to bite the cybs. :)

I hit him with rockets too, but I'm pretty sure it was the plasma that knocked him off the pillar. Maybe it's because I always use ZDoom. Certainly surprised the hell out of me when he showed up. Actually, instead of monster-blocking lines, I thought if the outside donut lowered 32 instead of raised 32, that would take care of it. If it was an issue.

Edit: that also means the outside edges of the pillar could be have their impassable tags removed so Cacos could melee and not just shoot.

Edit2: but then they would hit the teleport lines first. Never mind about the impassable tags.

Chris Hansen said:

So, do you advice me to remove the cl3 "warning" in the text file? I tend to agree, but if there's one thing I've learned, it's that I don't have all the necessary knowledge about sourceport and general engine behavior to make me 100% sure it's the safest way to go :)

monument_beta9-lmp.zip

Here is a set of test recordings to certify that beta9 is fully operational in Ultimate Doom v1.9 compatibility (-cl3). All maps can be beaten with 100% kills and secrets.

These are all first exits except M8 which took almost a dozen attempts. Four cyberdemons without room to circlestrafe is too much for me to defeat reliably, even with the BFG. This is what happens when mappers take game balance advice from too highly skilled players ;)

On M3 I still had trouble with the soulsphere secret - I did not realise there was an easier way in until I had missed the run several times. Did the window ledge lower before, or am I just blind? Oh well.

There are probably small things one could nitpick all day but perfectionism can be taken too far and at this point I don't think any more changes are necessary.

A great wad, thanks for making it.

Awesome RjY! Thanks a lot for going out of your way like that to prove the cl3 compatibilty!

And yeah, the window ledge has been like that all the time, nothing new there :)

Sorry for taking players better than you and me too seriously, hehe! ALthough, I gotta say that from what I can see in the demos (haven't watched all of them yet), you're doing pretty good actually!

I'll end the beta testing on Friday the 25th. If there's no additional feedback in this thread, I'll release beta 9 as the final version on that date and upload it to the archieves.

Ah... maybe 4 cybs ganging up on you all at once may be too much? Maybe you could add an invul in the first armory room on a pillar that lowers later (you'd see it as you begin), maybe just for HMP/HNTR? All 4 cybs are present on all skills, so this could give lesser skills a chance to take down a cyb or two in the bleach mode.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure I agree. I think that after having added the switches to free the CD's, it provided the player with more freedom to approach the fight against them. You could free two of them at a time which imho eases things a bit. That, and on the lower skill settings you already get an additional soulsphere and there are less Imps and Cacos. Plus you're helped with the hardcoded less hitpoints of the CD etc. It's just, that I really want the player to face all four of them so every player gets the same sorta ending to the episode :)

Chris Hansen said:

[on lower skill settings] you're helped with the hardcoded less hitpoints of the CD etc.

No, there is no such thing as hardcoded lesser enemy hitpoints on lower difficulties.

scifista42, you lurking SOB! I thought you'd left me :D

Yeah, you called me my bluff. I took a gamble and lost! For shame! All I know is that there's something different. Be it either the player taking less damage or the monsters doing less damage. Or something... I don't know. But I'm pretty sure you do! :)

The skill-level-specific hardcoded differences are only the following ones:

-On IDYTD, player gets double ammo from every ammo pickup + takes half damage from any source of damage
-On IDYTD and HNTR, IOS's monster spawners have double delay between shots
-On NM, player gets double ammo from every ammo pickup + monsters have fast reactions + monsters respawn after death + you can't use cheat codes

Sources:
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Skill_level
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Monster_spawner

Hurray! I'm pretty sure you didn't even look it up, can't fool me! :)

I admit, you're right, I only looked up the pages to have a proof for what I thought. :)

Hehe! Awesome.

Alright, I see what you mean. Being able to control the cyb fight is enough then. I was thinking in terms of a pure 1v4, heh.

dew said:

Ah... maybe 4 cybs ganging up on you all at once may be too much?

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying "this is too hard, please change it" - after all I won after less than a dozen tries, it's not like the map remained hopelessly unbeatable after a hundred attempts. It is quite a jump in challenge from the previous maps, but there is plenty of precedent here* and I think it's fine.

Indeed if anything I see it as you getting some of your own back for 200minvr map29 :)

________
* In particular I recall Double Impact, in which most maps ramp up in challenge slowly from a pistol start, but M8 has you chased around a pillared arena by multiple cyberdemons from the outset. I'd put Monument M8 in the same category.

Well, I wasn't kidding when I said m8 was right up my alley, you know. :) dbimpact m8 is ralph's trolling (and one of my favourite maps), but you're right. People accepted that, so all's fair I guess, heh.

Updated OP with download link to /idgames.

Congratulations to finally kicking the baby out of the door, Chris. :)

Hehe! Why thank you, good sir!

Ok so I didn't exactly adhere to my one video per night plan... but I'm almost done! Just the secret level to go.

Initial impressions are overwhelmingly positive, though I did not like E2M6. I did like E2M7 a lot but felt like an early plasma (and the ammo to use it) was sorely missing. But yeah, instant classic in my book ;-P

Playlist for all maps
-
E2M1
E2M2
E2M3
E2M4
E2M5
E2M6
E2M7
E2M8
E2M9 - Pending

Cheers, Brad! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.