Into the Void - NOT DEAD!

Obsidian said:

I don't know, something about a guy armed with a rocket launcher dropping ammunition for a pistol doesn't sit right with me.

Chaingunners dropping chainguns is an established game mechanic. Spoiling this expectation may be unintuitive/inconvenient to both mappers and players. On the other hand, the Rocket Zombie is new, there are no precedences about his behavior, so that mappers and players would accustomize more easily to its quirks. Wolfenstein SS replacements dropping clips (even if they logically shouldn't) is also somewhat known phenomenon.

Obsidian said:

Because then we might end up with 20 or so maps with their own unique themes and the finished product will be all over the place: a bit of cohesiveness will help things mesh together nicely. And bear in mind that these themes have mostly been lifted from the sessions, so it's extremely likely that people's maps will fit them anyway.

As I see it, it just adds more bothersome-ness to the mapping and project management for both you and every mapper. The only reason why you want this is trying to make the whole mapset "feel right", which I don't think is guaranteed to happen anyway, and so the only notable outcome of these restrictions will be uncomfort for the participants.

I have a feeling I won't convince you, but for what it's worth I feel like having the Chaingunner drop a clip isn't really a devastating blow and having the Rocket Zombie drop a rocket might actually open up some interesting gameplay opportunities. And besides, WolfSS replacements dropping clips is almost never intentional: if the person doing the DeHackEd knew how to avoid it, they would most likely do so to keep their work looking fairly neat and tidy. It's like how in older maps when you get killed by a custom monster and the obituary says "o% met a Nazi.": do you really think they meant for that to happen? Heh, I still remember seeing it in UAC Ultra and laughing my ass off. As for the themes, I'll see what the other mappers think before I do anything else.

I'll be honest here. I'd prefer if the episode themes weren't there, as that would give people a bit more freedom to do what they want with their maps. Screw cohesiveness, this is tuning-up ASS, which itself is one of the least cohesive things to exist ;)

Can I do my ASS 26 map?

I have to agree with scifista on this. I think the weapon dropping is part of a fundamental behavior that we are used to. But if there isn't any chance to keep it, I will try to figure out how to redo some areas. The result may be kinda messy though.

Argh, the Chaingunner is the only monster who I can relatively safely replace: it doesn't make sense for a Shotgunner to drop clips and if I used the Former Human you'd have two monsters that drop rockets and the Former Human would probably drop nothing at all. It's a difficult compromise, but if you can give me an alternative I'd be happy to implement it.

And like I said before, the themes are up for debate. What would you suggest AD_79? I really do want the end product to be as decent as possible and having all the maps have wildly different themes would completely poleaxe that intention. Maybe I'll ask TGH how he did it with CC4.

Obsidian said:

Argh, the Chaingunner is the only monster who I can relatively safely replace: it doesn't make sense for a Shotgunner to drop clips and if I used the Former Human you'd have two monsters that drop rockets and the Former Human would probably drop nothing at all. It's a difficult compromise, but if you can give me an alternative I'd be happy to implement it.

Well, if you refuse to make the Rocket Zombie drop a clip (which I'd be fine with), how about making either the Zombieman or the Rocket Zombie (ideally the latter) drop nothing at all, by shifting him into a different thing slot?

scifista42 said:

Well, if you refuse to make the Rocket Zombie drop a clip (which I'd be fine with), how about making either the Zombieman or the Rocket Zombie (ideally the latter) drop nothing at all, by shifting him into a different thing slot?

I can make the Zombieman drop nothing while still retaining its obituary, but I feel like that would mess up people's maps more than just having the Chaingunner drop a clip. And if I have the Rocket Zombie drop nothing, it closes off an avenue for new ideas and makes the monster itself more run of the mill. Honestly I'm just going to leave it as is for the time being, it's a lesser of numerous problems and probably impacts gameplay the least. If you want to discuss it further, look for me on #abyssal.

Obsidian said:

1. I can make the Zombieman drop nothing while still retaining its obituary,
2. but I feel like that would mess up people's maps more than just having the Chaingunner drop a clip.
3. And if I have the Rocket Zombie drop nothing, it closes off an avenue for new ideas and makes the monster itself more run of the mill.
4. Honestly I'm just going to leave it as is for the time being, it's a lesser of numerous problems and probably impacts gameplay the least.
5. If you want to discuss it further, look for me on #abyssal.

1. Obituary is a ZDoom thing, which means that you can always change it via additional DECORATE to the DEHACKED you made.
2. I don't think so - clip is just a tiny ammo pickup, as opposed to chaingun as a potentially new weapon to player's armory. By the way, I didn't examine your DEHACKED yet, but have you not messed with "ID" thing properties? It allows you to "statically" replace any spawn type with any other - for example, you change a candelabra to use Zombieman's states and behavior and his spawn ID too, then a mapper will put a Zombieman into his map and it will spawn the candelabra looking and behaving like a Zombieman. Mappers shouldn't have to remember which normal thing types were swapped with which new thing types.
3. What?
4. I might try to modify your DEHACKED myself, for science if for nothing else.
5. I don't IRC.

Well you should IRC, it means we don't have to make long-ass posts all the time, with the added benefit of on the spot input from other people. Use OFTC or Doom Explorer like I do, no signup required.

I was just hoping to maintain the look of this area here, which can be remade with just:

BARTAN3, BRICKBG6

FLOOR1_8, GRAYFLA1

The rest can be substituted. This would probably fit in the "Stone Base" category.

The existing map will be just this central, interconnecting section here and the map will be expanded around it, probably in a sandbox design.

scifista42 said:

1. Obituary is a ZDoom thing, which means that you can always change it via additional DECORATE to the DEHACKED you made.

Or just LANGUAGE, for an obituary.

^ I don't think it's usable for monsters/things that do not have predefined obituaries, like Commander Keens or Pain Elementals or any decorative objects (etc.) turned into custom monsters via DEHACKED. That's what I believed was the problem Obsidian was running into.

scifista42 said:

^ I don't think it's usable for monsters/things that do not have predefined obituaries, like Commander Keens or Pain Elementals or any decorative objects (etc.) turned into custom monsters via DEHACKED. That's what I believed was the problem Obsidian was running into.

Yeah but for Obsidian's example of "%o met a Nazi" where there is already an obit, it's just that it doesn't fit, then that's all that's needed.

Obsidian said:

Argh, the Chaingunner is the only monster who I can relatively safely replace: it doesn't make sense for a Shotgunner to drop clips and if I used the Former Human you'd have two monsters that drop rockets and the Former Human would probably drop nothing at all. It's a difficult compromise, but if you can give me an alternative I'd be happy to implement it.

I may, replace FHuman by Chaingunner and give to last one FHuman's attack with slower chaingun.

Obsidian said:

I can make the Zombieman drop nothing while still retaining its obituary, but I feel like that would mess up people's maps more than just having the Chaingunner drop a clip.

I like the scifista idea, I think it would interfere less on the gameplay.

Former humans are rarely used and their clips are practically useless, since you need a lot of ammo for the chaingun (that works better with green boxes and other chainguns). Dropped clips are mainly used for the pistol, a weapon that no one cares. On the other side, people tend to use Chaingunners a lot and his item is more valuable.

Besides, clips are more easy to be placed on map (if needed) instead of chainguns that needs a specific weapon placement.

Can we use ASS26 maps?

Here are 3 different modified versions of this project's DEHACKED made by myself, conveniently put into wads together with the accompanied sprites and sounds, for your quick tests on Doom 2 IWAD or your maps for this project.

http://www.filedropper.com/intothevoidalt123

Version "Alt 1" fully reverts Chaingunner's vanilla behavior, makes the Rocket Zombie replace a WolfensteinSS and makes his drop a clip of bullet ammo upon his death, and there are no more confusing placement swaps of Chaingunner/WolfensteinSS enemies or Chaingun/Rocket pickups - their slots are back to default, so mappers can place them to their maps normally.

Version "Alt 2" is identical to Alt 1, except that now the Rocket Zombie drops nothing upon his death. Mappers would still put him into a map as a WolfensteinSS.

Version "Alt 3" is identical to Alt 1, except that now the Rocket Zombie drops a rocket upon his death, whereas the classic Zombieman drops nothing upon his death. Note that, again, mappers would place everything into their maps normally - Zombieman is a Zombieman, Clip is a Clip, Rocket is a Rocket, and only the Rocket Zombie is a WolfensteinSS (from the perspective of a mapper putting things into his map using standard Doom config, that is).

Obituary messages are not correct at the moment, but all will be possible to fix.

Everybody feel free to test it out and decide which behavior you prefer.

Also, I have found out that Obsidian's DEHACKED reuses states of the stock monsters/things somewhat inefficiently - for example, no reuse of Item Respawn Fog states, Zombieman gibbing states (which can be shared with identical Shotgunguy's ones) and Rocket Zombie's death states (identical to Zombieman's ones, so they can be shared too). I believe that with a little refactoring, either the Spider Mastermind or the Monster Spawners (maybe even both!) could be brought back while keeping all the new monsters intact.

How does this idea sound? :)

scifista42 said:

How does this idea sound? :)

It may sound fine and dandy on paper but in the end it's up to Obsidian how DEHACKED will be made and work in this project and by any means he is not obliged to do things.

By any means, I do disagree with your opinion about Obsidian's dehacked, if it works, it works, if that's how Obsidian intended it to be, so be it, deal with it.

alterworldruler said:

It may sound fine and dandy on paper but in the end it's up to Obsidian how DEHACKED will be made and work in this project and by any means he is not obliged to do things.

Scifista did it. I honestly can't see anything wrong with this. Obsidian asked for some ideas and he is trying to find a solution. I doubt that anyone uses clips (dropped by zombiemen) as a crucial gameplay element.

Noiser said:

Scifista did it. I honestly can't see anything wrong with this. Obsidian asked for some ideas and he is trying to find a solution. I doubt that anyone uses clips dropped by zombiemen as a crucial gameplay element.

I can't really speak for everyone here, but I can say that it'd certainly be useful for early maps where weaponry starts off light and possibly for later maps where you end up facing hordes. But enough about what I think: would anyone be averse to Zombiemen no longer dropping ammo? I can make it happen, but it means we end up with a wasted monster slot where you have either a Zombieman that inexplicably drops a rocket or a Rocket Zombie with a Zombieman's obituary text (yes, it's kind of minor, but it'll make my eye twitch every time I see it).

Obsidian said:

it means we end up with a wasted monster slot where you have either a Zombieman that inexplicably drops a rocket or a Rocket Zombie with a Zombieman's obituary text (yes, it's kind of minor, but it'll make my eye twitch every time I see it).

The Zombieman was technically swapped with a Candle decoration (I also modified their Spawn IDs so that you still place Zombiemen into maps as Zombiemen and Candles as Candles). Also, as I said before, obituaries can be fixed via DECORATE, like this: (or similarly, maybe this exact code wouldn't work)

Actor NoDropAmmoZombieman : Zombieman replaces Candlestick {
  DropItem "none"
}

(inherits Zombieman's obituary message as well as all his other properties)

Similarly you can create DECORATE for the Rocket Zombie, you will just have to define his states and properties explicitly, since they're new.

So, uhh, didn't think I'd be the first one finished. Heh.

Map name: Lament
Original map: "Obsidian's Lament" from abyspe15.wad
Music: D_MESSAG from Alien Vendetta (will probably be replaced)
Theme: Plutonia
Single player: Designed for
Co-op: Not yet
Deathmatch: Nope
Difficulty settings: Not yet

Run in Doom 2 with the resource pack. There's a secret exit as well, but I'm fine with removing it if a more worthy MAP15 candidate appears. Feedback is appreciated!

Oh yes, and here's an updated resource pack with some extra textures for Pinchy added in. :)

Here's a crappy FDA. 35 mins, remarkable in a map this size, because I spent a lot of time lost.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/at8d7crt2669x1u/Lament.wad

There's a mandatory bit of progression later on that's triggered only by a walkover line, and it's pretty easy to decide not to go that way. I liked the setups -- the monsters in the bookshelves was funny, and lol rocket zombies.

An update to Lament that remedies that little quandry and also fixes some ares that could be glided through: thanks 4Shock you canny bastard. ;-D

FDA for the original version of Lament: Link

Very confusing map, and I played extremely safe (usually) because I know how you play ;)

It looks really cool though, I love the theme and it's idea.

Noiser said:

Former humans are rarely used and their clips are practically useless, since you need a lot of ammo for the chaingun (that works better with green boxes and other chainguns).

Says you. I like using strategic hoards of zombiemen. They can be suprisingly deadly if used correctly. See: one of my previous ASS maps that was only hell knights, zombiemen, and arachnotrons.

rf` said:

Says you. I like using strategic hoards of zombiemen. They can be suprisingly deadly if used correctly. See: one of my previous ASS maps that was only hell knights, zombiemen, and arachnotrons.

Well, my point was more about the dropped clips, since green boxes could fulfill the same role (I guess).

But don't worry, it's ok. I will find a way to deal with the changes.

Just a heads up, I'm going to tune up my session 21 map, though it'll be more of a redo/expansion/thing that takes the concept of the original and turns it into a much better map sort of deal.

So, feel free to work on any of my maps with the exceptions of 19 and 21.

So, how's progress?

...

Why am I being so nonchalant about this, I'm running this project. Good grief. Anyway, feel free to post some WIP screenshots and the like: just so everything is kept ticking over. In the meantime: here's an update to the texture pack that adds some textures requested by Pinchy and 4Shockblast. All you need to do is ask. :)