DoomPhreak

bloodshot said:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/472142411506406430/054B197950C7CF3DAAE2D37AE4F7C643070CCC9A/

Quick test with the new blocking volumes and some decals

EDIT:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/472142411506529297/B5568241E038CDABDA9DA3C76C285468AEA84C5A/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/472142411506529620/0A02981EDCD0BBF6AEE07BF14F915226AB7885E7/

Anyone disappointed that these construction props only come in grey and yellow, and can't change colors? Also, we need *hell* construction props too. And I can't believe there is still only ONE table. I want to make an office type of room and can't with so few furniture selections. Small props still can't be static. Blocking volumes finally block AI's but I haven't tested how well it works.

Very nice use of the grid room. You wisely use liquid surfaces so the demons can walk on them and still look natural. You probably know that you can't make solid walking surfaces in the grid room because demons can't walk on props. So using blood as the floor is wise. Of course, some may wonder why all the walking surfaces are liquid, so you may want to distract them with other effects (rising blood level, maybe). Still, I noticed some demons still had trouble navigating around all the custom props you put there. For a small short map, that's ok. For a big long map, you gotta find some ways to deal with that. Seeing demons stuck near props repeatedly can be immersion-breaking. I can't really help you there since I'm struggling with it myself. But I'm all for you to expand this idea into a bigger map whatever your workarounds may be.

I'm making a map with original architecture too, but with the UAC "storage facility" module, which is a huge empty room with an actual floor (albeit UAC-style) that I don't need to cover up, unlike the grid room.

With Snapmap being as limiting as it is, I would forgive the occasional lack of "window dressing" of modules, but ONLY IF the map compensates it with enough gameplay content. I would also look at percentage of resource used. If the gameplay is good but the window dressing is lacking, and yet here is 20% unused resource, then the mapmaker has no excuse: he or she needs to dress up the modules with that 20%. Aural dress-up uses much less resource than visual dress-up, so use more sound clips if your resource is low.

DMGUYDZ64 said:

You can create your own rooms, they even added the "Grid room" to let your freely do so, With the use of Hell Props and Blocking Volumes this can be achieved, Best examples i know are Mom's Basement , Cartoon KillZone, Unholy Cathedral and E3M2 Redux .

The problem with this is that demons have trouble navigating on props and/or with props surrounding them, and blocking volumes don't block demons. I have yet to see a map, including the ones you cited, that solves this problem. Unless Bethesda solves this, this will always be a major stumbling block of having original architecture.

Ok, you want constructive criticism, here it is. I played your Pestilence map where I just ran to the Hell module, used the panel, and got the victory. You gotta make victory harder to get than this. You know from playing all the Doom games that you gotta make the player work to gain entry to an area, and then work it for another area, until he gains entry to the room where the victory is.

This forum is slow as you can see, nothing we can do. Try also posting at Bethesda's User Snapmaps section, which is also not the busiest place.

My latest map is called "Hellbound (by DoomPhreak)" (ID: 4978L4BJ), where you play a UAC marine exploring the mysteries of Hell. The trademark of this map is the unique way of demon spawning and respawning throughout, which is unpredictable and may be quite challenging to fight against.

There are also some puzzle situations such as these:





I bring back the invisible staircase which I used in my earlier map:



More screenshots:





This is my FOURTH map. My first is called "The Beginning of the End" and it's not that good. My second is "The End is Nigh" where you go up a 5-floor building and fight on every floor. "Descent" is the reverse where you go down a building and look for audio clues and other secrets.

The L&T effect can be used indoor too. All you need to do is place a window. You will have the believable effect of the L&T coming through from the window. Save logic too. You don't have to turn off L&T when the player goes indoor.

I appreciate all the Demon voice clips, but some of them are just too specific for general purpose use. And I can't find something as simple as HA HA HA HA HA... Maybe I use a voice clip that starts with "Hell", play several of them really fast in succession, and get something like "HeHeHeHeHe..." (haven't really tried that). But then if subtitles are turned on, it will ruin the effect. The Vega voices seem to have a lot more to choose from, but if I try to lower the frequency to make it sound like a demon, the subtitles will say "Vega:..." and again it will ruin the effect. There isn't even a voice clip of each individual demon's sound. If I want the shriek of a revenant at a specific time, I can't do it.

Has anyone tried creating thunder and lightning effects for modules with outdoor scenary? I did a test with "atmosphere: overexposed" and pitch-altered explosion audio with randomized timing, volume, and pitch, and was surprised by how realistic it looked and sounded.

Almonds said:

Say what you will, to be able to work within those limitations and be able to crank out stuff like this is worth praise if anything. Steps and uneven ground are also easily reproductible, bloodshot here just didn't go through with it for some reason or another.

Also, the lines on the grid room are easily covered by placing a player blocking volume thing on the walls.

Actually, placing demons high up can be accomplished by teleporting them in mid-air and letting them fall to the props you made. That would be something I would suggest.

Player-blocking volumes don't block demons, and it would look ridiculous when demons move in and out of them. That's why I avoid using them when demons are present. That's another thing Snapmap needs to improve on. Also, these volumes don't look too good in an immersion-breaking kind of way. And bloodshot did use them to hide the grid lines, but still had to use fog to hide them.

DMGUYDZ64 said:

Lol wat's the matter, ya feeling jealous ? I Saw you digging through all of his maps and telling him about the smallest of the smallest and barely noticeable issues .

This is called forum discussion, hello? If reading slightly contrarian comments makes you uncomfortable do something else. The SAD thing is you don't realize I'm actually in support of this mapmaker because I made it quite clear that the fault is really in Snapmap, not him. Which part of "Snapmap is holding back his creativity" did you not understand?

And it's NOT a small issue. Notice how some of the demons have trouble running, especially the charging pinkies? That's because walking AI's have a hard time navigating on props. Another thing is why not have only flying demons? That would at least solve that problem. Instead, you have all kinds of unnatural walking motions.

And my comment on his other map was about a spawning BUG. You called that a small problem too?

Notice a lot of mapmakers don't even get a comment when they create a thread here? I responded because I cared about this mapmaker's work. Next time stop being so butthurt when you read comments that don't agree with your narrow, poorly-informed views.

Nice use of the "grid room" module. But it looks like Snapmap is holding you back. It has to look foggy because you need hide the grid lines on the walls of the grid room. And there is no elevation, because the demons must be placed on the ground floor, and can't be placed on props. So all combat must be done on the ground. Even the original E3M2 has a few steps to climb up to avoid monotony. So this is one instance where Snapmap's limitations are holding back the creativity of the mapmaker.

Potatoguy said:

There is even maps WITHOUT MUSIC.

Sometimes no music can be effective too. In movies, such as in Hitchcock's The Birds, the lack of music is used to heightened the atmosphere. The background sound effects are also the key. In fact, one should see music AND sound as a whole. If the end result of the audio works, it doesn't matter if there is music or not. Many years ago when they gave out Oscars for sound design, the awards went to both the sound recorders and music composers.

symmetron said:

Fun map, as far as I got. When I picked up the blue skull (big module with a skybox above it) I got locked in but no demons spawned.

Same thing happened to me in single-player. I also stopped seeing any spawning much earlier.

Potatoguy said:

Technicality: 4/5 – No bugs, thank god.

Maybe the mapmaker change something since then? Because there seemed to be quite a few spawning errors.

To the OP, please fix these. This seems like a good map and I want to experience the gameplay as it was designed.

The opening UAC sequence had nice atmosphere-setting sound and visuals (btw, the opening of the window shutters was a nice sleight of hand, done with debris pasted on to the window). But the Hell sequence a little less so. I played single player but saw very few demons. I looked at it in the editor and noticed that some of the spawns didn't occur.

Another seldom used trick is rotating the orientation of the props by pressing Shift and rotating with the mouse (on PC), instead of having all the props in their default upright positions.

This discussion has gone sideways because these characters simply refuse to address my last arguments and compounded it with childish comments. Yeah, I committed SUCH a crime by simply asking for a response to my arguments, LOL. That is what a discussion IS FOR, buddy. It's for people to offer arguments and counter-arguments. So WHAT EXACTLY have I done wrong, pray tell? Nothing, right? Conclusion: those who derailed this discussion were those who couldn't address the arguments and posted childish remarks. Please understand this.

Hi redrage, I'm a big fan of adventure games, and I know a demon-less map with only puzzles is not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm so tickled by the idea that I just want to give it a try.

Vertical separation for audio is not possible yet. You notice this in other games too. When enemies are upstairs or below you, they sound like they are on the same floor as you. That is just the limit of the technology.

I don't like my open floor puzzle because it makes more sense that if someone designs this floor security, the deadly currents should be on all the time. Making it go on and off is too obvious and contrived an attempt to enable you to jump over it. That's why in another room, I have floor currents on all the time. I like a good challenge, but I also want puzzles to make sense.

You can't put messages in a camera view. Some get around this by putting "world messages" in front of the camera. But world messages use a whopping 0.4% resource each. You use a few of these and you lose 5-10% resource easily.

In order to "understand each other's position" as you put it, they need to actually HAVE a position for me to understand. As I already said, they refuse to address my last points, so what is it for me to understand? Instead, they resort to one failed would-be comeback after another. What sort of "position" do you think they can have by calling me "brat", "asshole", and "13-year-old"? Isn't it obvious? They CHECKED OUT this discussion long ago, obviously because they CAN'T come up with anything to counter my arguments. So they resort predictably to name-calling. And somehow I'm the 13- year-old here? Moi?? So I implore these characters one last time: THE BALL IN ON YOUR COURT. Address my damn arguments, THEN you'll have a position.

I wonder if this a widely seen phenomenon or just me, but sometimes when a lockdown concludes, I don't hear the Vega voice saying "Lockdown complete." This can occur in a wave event's lockdown, or a manual lockdown logic added to a module. If it is the latter, I can delay the "end lockdown" action by a few seconds to make sure the player hears "Lockdown complete." I find out I have to delay it by as many as 4 seconds. A wave event provides no way to delay the "lockdown complete", however. I figure the missing audio is probably due to its being covered up by other audio while the lockdown is ending. Of course, today's technology should have no problem play multiple audio clips simultaneously, so this is likely a bug.

Has anyone run into problems using trigger volumes and cylinders as usable objects? I run into several strange phenomena. I have a secret door that I want the player to open by activating it (pressing "F", the default key on a PC). So I put a trigger volume right in front of the door and set it to be "usable". The first strange thing is that when I walk to the door, the "F" prompt for usage doesn't appear. The second strange thing is that when I walk to the door and then LOOK LEFT OR RIGHT, then the "F" prompt appears. The THIRD strange thing is that when I put the usable trigger volume AWAY from the door so there is space around it, the "F" prompt appears normally; i.e. I walk up to the volume and the "F" shows up right away, without me having to look left or right. If the put the volume back against the door, the problem comes back. Away from the door, no problem. This happens to trigger blocks or cylinders, large or small, long or short, above or below the player.

Then the 4th strange phenomenon is that even if the "F" prompt doesn't show up, the volume is STILL USABLE. I walk up to the door, don't see the "F", press "F" anyway and the door still opens as I designed it.

And a FIFTH phenomenon, oh yes baby. Using the volume without seeing the "F" prompt DOES NOT TRIGGER THE "ON USED" EVENT!! Any logic that created with the trigger's "on used" event is not executed. The only way to execute the "on used" logic is to use the volume when you actually see the "F" prompt, which, as mentioned earlier, needs to be done by look left or right. I can't expect the player to know this, so I just have to forgo the "on used" event. For now, I rely on the door's "on opened" event instead.

Jaxxoon R said:

Your writing style would be embarrassing for a 13 year old, and your weird belief that you're some kind of character in a thread-based narrative where everyone that disagrees is some kind of badguy is both bafflingly funny and slightly creepy.

Didn't I say I was imploring you people to address my yet unaddressed arguments? The ones who are truly made uncomfortable by disagreements are the lot of you who have YET to address my arguments. Again, if you people want to sass me so badly, ADDRESS the damn arguments and actually prove them invalid to the point that I'm unable to address your arguments back! That's how grown-ups do it. Funny you call me immature, when you were the one with that feeble cheerleading attempt that fizzled so badly.

Just want to add that the opening floor challenge also didn't come off very well. It promised more than it actually delivered, really. The inspiration for this is, of all things, the 1998 Tex Murphy adventure game "Overseer". It has a puzzle where the floor security is actually ON ALL THE TIME (which makes so much more sense). You have to hack into the security system and find a "testing" button. Pressing it triggers a "testing mode", in which the floor light blinks on and off as if in testing mode. What's more, you have to find a paper with the "testing pattern" of the floor. With it, you are able to tell when and where the floor lights are actually off, thus you can plan your escape route. This is a much better design obviously, and I don't know if I can ever do all that in Snapmap.

DMGUYDZ64 & redrage, thanks for your comments. (DMGUYDZ64, thanks, I fixed the video's title.)

redrage, the puzzle in the room with the artificial stairways and pressure plate was inspired by this puzzle in Eternal Doom IV Map 9 (see 9:30 of this video). That was an even tougher puzzle in that you couldn't even see what you were shooting at because the target was so far away. And that didn't even register as a secret in the map. I originally wanted to do the same, but couldn't find the proper location in Snapmap. Regarding all the secrets that are required to finish the map, you are right, of course. But I just wanted to reward the player in some way. Regarding that missing baron of hell, I think it might have been teleported away. There is a teleporter near where the hell knight spawns.

Based on the feedbacks for this map and my previous map, it seems my main weakness is putting the right kind of demon encounters in terms of difficulty and excitement. In my next map, I'm thinking of doing away demons entirely and having only puzzles!

Also, the use of audio clues in this map did not come off as well as I had wanted to because the "3D audio" object has a very limited audio range. You can only hear it if you are close by, which defeats the purpose of the puzzle. Also, "3D audio" is only 3D in an horizontal plane. If the sound is on a vertical plane, i.e. if it's above or below you, then you can't really discern its position. The sad thing was that I could only put the audio clues either above or below the player because those were the only places I could use for secret areas. Also, I don't think the audio technology exists yet for audio in a vertical plane. Finally, using 3D audio may not help those players who can only hear stereo sound. I play this game on a PC with 7.1 sound card and speakers, and I'm able to tell which direction the sound comes from. But those who have only 2 speakers can't do that. Yes, some systems can produce "virtual 3D" sound, but then some may not.