MajorRawne

All right, I give up. I've played through four megawads in a row with the low quality, not particularly good, original sound effects. Where can I get a copy of the PSX Sounds wad and preferably also the music wad? I can't find them from a Google search.

Thank you very much!

1 hour ago, rzh said:

I have some more, I don't think they're that controversial:

E1 is the worst Doom 1 episode.

Fireblue looks awesome and is underused.

Most of Doom's enemies look goofy and their sprite have a puerile feel. I still like them though.

Regular zombieman getting dehacked into a less useless enemy should be a standard.

I shall fight you, sir. I shall fight you in the art of pugilism. :P

Agreed on the zombieman though, I don't know why they even bothered putting them in the game.

I've always, always hated The Plutonia Experiment, and was glad it was stripped down for PSX Doom (some of it was still shit though).

HOWEVER! I am going to play it through on UV properly, with an open mind, and post a short review elsewhere. It's time to give this super-legendary wad a fair chance.

EDIT: "I hate Plutonia." - MajorRawne on map 2

HELL REVEALED

Another all-time classic which could be seen as the father of the modern slaughter wad. It's always irked me how hard I used to find HR, so I booted it up in UV, gritted my teeth and went for it. Could this finally be my entryway into slaughter-style gameplay?

Music: I'm sure we all remember the landmark copyright infringement case, Haggay & Niv vs 1980s Porn.

Map design: Negatives: This megawad dates from 1997 and many maps look like it. There are tons of blunders such as having powerful monsters at the top of tall staircases or lifts where you can't see them; doorway fights where you can't see past the mountain of dead cacodemons; narrow corridors with powerful monsters who need to be shotgunned; areas where you can't backtrack from, so if you don't have enough ammo, well screw you (this happened to me on map 14). Some of the maps are downright hideous, and you can't even say they favour gameplay over aesthetic, because the gameplay in some of them sucks too. Some maps are agonisingly bland like Chambers of War, one of my all-time least favourite Doom maps. I found in later maps it was easy to run out of ammo. Positives: Some of the maps are all-time classics, some are fun and exciting, especially before the difficulty curve turns into Mount Everest. If you want to stand a chance at getting into the world of slaughter, you should start here.

Monster deployment: Hell Revealed plays more like a typical megawad than a slaughter wad, so the gameplay can be fun and varied - up to a point. After this point, infighting is mandatory. (This point is map 13 on UV.) Monster placement is often quite fiendish, so expect plenty of crossfires, plenty of dodging, it's not a megawad where sitting still helps you. I would imagine this plays much better on HMP than UV, so will drop down and try again.

Difficulty level: My albatross. Miles harder than Scythe or AV, it's shocking just how hard Hell Revealed still is after all these years. It doesn't spam you with BFGs in the early maps and when you do have one, many maps don't supply the cells needed to go on a rampage, so I would argue HR is far more skill-based than many wads I've tried. On UV, I reached maps 13 and 14 before realising I just wasn't having fun any more - I skipped the end of map 13 after cheesing the impossible blue key room* and I gave up on map 14, which trapped me against a Cyber and Arch-Viles with not enough health or ammo.

Is it worth playing: I'll update the review after trying the harder maps again on HMP. Entitled modern gamers who grew up with iPads rather than the NES/Master System will be shocked at how bad HR looks and at all the "noob" mistakes, not realising that HR was utterly groundbreaking for its day - Doom modding was like 3 years old at this point and no-one had really figured it out. This is a megawad that everyone must play, it is Doom history and still beloved by many. Personally, I found it to start off ok and then have the fun sucked out of it on UV, but there is something special about getting your arse kicked by a megawad that's 24 years old.

^{* Decino barely managed to survive this room with more health and armour than me and a vastly higher skill level.}

I feel like most things are degrading in the modern world.  You can't watch anything without someone's bizarre agenda being rammed down your throat at the expense of characterisation, plot, etc. The news is hopelessly and blatantly biased - they don't even try to hide that they're feeding you their opinion rather than a neutral summary of the facts. Are any news agencies still unbiased in this day and age?

As for games, yeah, they're all heavily scripted, limited replay value, you spend more time looking for collectibles and trying to hit achievements than enjoying the game. I think this started in Final Fantasy. Look at 7, 8, 9, all vast games spread across multiple discs, with hundreds of different enemies, dozens of locations, semi-open-world travel. Then look at 10. By the time you get to Mt Gagazet, you've fought pallette swaps of the same 5 enemies about a thousand times. The game boils down to the same three characters spamming the same move (Quick Hits) with the same enchantments on their gear. The optional superbosses are yet more pallette swaps that are either impossible, or ludicrously easy, depending on your characters. The open world feel was destroyed and is eventually reduced to being a menu. So many people adore this game, and yet it is like the blunted, limited cousin of the games that came before it, because "that's progress".

Don't get me started on how limited the gameplay of Doom 2016 was... go down a corridor, into a room, kill a few waves of enemies (they can't all spawn at once because modern computers are tens of thousands of times more powerful than in the 90s, which obviously means they can handle less), hit a gore switch, fight more waves of enemies. Maybe do a couple of cool jumps after. Throw the same deathmove in 500 times, create some bosses because every FPS needs massive bosses. Hey look, I just created a modern Doom game.

For the record, I'm not someone who plays to get achievements in games. I'd consider "completed each map from pistol start" to be one of those gold trophies designed to make you spend absolutely hours doing the same thing over again. That's a shame in a world with so many high quality megawads.

Also for the record, I am currently halfway through map 13 of Hell Revealed and it is getting to the point where I possibly couldn't beat the maps from a pistol start anyway. It's more enjoyable playing such megawads through continuously so you have enough firepower for the job at all times, rather than spending an hour circle strafing while the demons do your job for you!

12 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

The keyword is "were" :)

I know, it was a joke, I never play IOS maps.

Hopefully I will get a chance to check this out tomorrow, although I am somewhat put off by the complaints about platforming. I find that in GZDoom it's like Doomguy is sliding around on ice and personally I don't think inescapable pits should ever exist in a game. However the screenies look good and you are clearly listening to feedback. Good luck with map 3, the screenshots look striking.

1 hour ago, SilverMiner said:

I can't say what do I expect from a modern wad overall but

I'm pretty sure that IOS fights became useless and redundant

I'm sure they were fine in the first 2000 or so megawads that ended with one.

1 hour ago, Jacek Bourne said:

Difficult maps tend to be far better designed and enjoyable than easy maps.

I actually agree with this, some of the most beautiful maps ever designed are ****ing impossible for me.

Thanks everyone, I suppose as people have said, starting a map from a pistol start is really just an extra challenge if you want to go the extra mile.

Probably said this before but:

Classic Doom is superior to modern Doom in every meaningful way. Doom Eternal has better graphics? Yeah but it doesn't look like Doom any more and Doomguy looks like Master Chief.

Modern Doom has a story? Yeah, Classic Doom doesn't need that bullshit to be a good game.

Modern Doom has a hardcore metal soundtrack? It's completely generic.

Modern Doom has death moves? In Classic Doom your weapons killed the monsters, not make them glow.

Thanks for this list. I've played a couple of slaughterish maps recently and got tons of enjoyment from them, so I'm going to stop moaning about slaughtermaps and try to actually play some.

Maybe the list should have an indication of whether the wads support difficulty levels. Or is it better just to stick it on UV and persist until we "git gud"?

Greetings Doomworld! As the title says, if you play a megawad straight through rather than pistol-starting each map, can you truly say you've beaten it? For example, I recently finished Scythe and REALLY enjoyed map 30, which I've read many people complaining about its difficulty. Yeah it's hard as balls and I died loads, mainly because I dodge like an ape, but I found it thrilling and rewarding to play, nowhere near as impossible as it first seemed.

1 hour ago, MFG38 said:

Throw a cool custom monster that complements the vanilla beastiary at me and chances are I'll like it.

 

Throw a haphazardly put-together custom monster that feels like it belongs in another universe at me and chances are I'll hate it.

Exactly this. Well said, sir. The worst thing about new monsters is if they look and behave like they belong in another game. Also, introducing super-hard entities who are orders of magnitude more powerful than the vanilla monsters, especially those who create bullet hell. (In mods like Complex Doom Clusterfuck, this is fine, if annoying/unfair, because the player's arsenal is so devastating in reply.)

If they fit the look and feel of Doom, I am absolutely all over it when a wad introduces new monsters. Some of the Bestiary monsters are brilliant and not seen enough.

Yeah, Scythe is a good, small-scale trainer. Ironically I found the "super-hard" map 26 to be relatively easy, I still died a bit and carried weapons etc through from the previous map. It would be more challenging from a pistol start but you just let the monsters do all the heavy lifting. Erik gives you the ammo to kill everything yourself if you wish - something I think all slaughtermaps should do.

I saw an old Doomworld thread last night, can't remember the link. Someone posted a picture of an iceberg. Starting at the top and descending down into the abyss, he listed wads in order of difficulty from easiest to underpant-destroying.

SCYTHE

An all-time classic noted for its insane difficulty spike and its infamous map 26 - something I forgot about before starting on UV. Maps are split into three 10-level episodes but all intermission text remains original, and the map names don't display in the automapper.

Music: Pretty much seems like if it wasn't in classic Doom, it was in Alien Vendetta. So I am happy with this! The classic game's music is starting to sound very dated, but the mapper chose the best of the bunch.

Map design: The maps are typically short but beautiful in an old-school way. Surely no-one could complain about them. They seem nicely designed, they flow very well and are generally short and sharp, keeping you hooked because each map is so short and you don't get bogged down with boring The Citadel-style slogs. In later maps, the use of crossfires from powerful monsters is well done, though "safe" zones are provided where you can hide and let the monsters sort each other out. Hell levels have always been my favourite and this delivers in spades.

Monster deployment: For the first two thirds this is really compelling, there are some maps which are harder than others including a map which deliberately gives you a taste of what's to come - but if the later maps are a spicy vindaloo, most of the earlier maps are your girlfriend's korma.

Difficulty level: It rarely feels unfair and is generous with powerups and stuff for the first two episodes. Map 21 onwards become very painful. You will definitely know how good you are at Doom when you try them on UV. It gives the megawad a split personality since the difficulty spike is considerable. You could justify this as the megawad training you up as you progress, but when the spike is so severe, we could have probably done with more warning!

Is it worth playing: This depends on whether you like playing good megawads or not. If you want to chill out on easier maps, play the first episode of Scythe. If you want to dip your toes into the world of slaughtermaps, play Scythe. If you like quick but fiendish maps, play Scythe. If you want to remember exactly why Doom was so popular it's still big today, play Scythe. EDIT: Skip map 28. Trust me.

Thanks for the map ideas, I definitely will prioritise exploration/adventure maps.

Oh and I am in the last third of Scythe. And the difficulty level did go up Everest. A shame, as the first two episodes in no way prepare you for how nasty it gets at level 21. Forgot how much I hate Arch-Viles, and full speed Revenants, and Lost Souls that take two shotgun shells to kill for some reason.

This is making me pine to play some 90s wads again. Everyone including me talks about megawads like Requiem, but when did we last actually play them?

Some modern wads are gloriously beautiful, but it's the gameplay that suffers because people tend to build huge, oppressive arenas. What's wrong with a return to AV style exploration, where maps could turn into savage battlegrounds, but you felt like you were actually exploring a location, and it put you on edge?

Thank you for all these suggestions, I will get on them! Gonna have to be Eviternity next!

I downloaded the original Scythe this morning which I somehow missed -- it's nothing like expected, I thought Scythe maps started easy and the difficulty curve turned into Mount Everest, but I'm only 33% of the way in yet. Scythe is VERY nostalgic.

So what are currently regarded as the top megawads? Preferably non-slaughterfest style. Also preferably with nice visuals.

I haven't moved on from the AV, Requiem, MM, HR generation. There is something so simple and fun about them, gameplay was focused on over visuals (in most cases). That generation of slaughtermaps played like other Doom maps, if you know what I mean, they weren't just a big arena.

Ha, what a hilarious idea!

Oh don't get me wrong, I have said ad nauseum that I consider Alien Vendetta to be Doom perfected. I just meant that the original maps are so unbelievably fiendish at times, John Romero and his team were high IQ kids to be sure.

3 hours ago, Nimiauredhel said:

John Romero said several years ago (before Sigil) that if he made a level "today", people would get on his case about texture alighments and such, and I think that generally speaking WADs aren't made with Doom/Doom 2 quality in mind anymore as we've learned a lot since these games were released and they aren't considered the pinnacle of level design anymore.

 

And tools of course, if I knew how amazing Doom authoring tools were nowadays I would have gotten into this so much earlier. The people who made the WADs in this ISO probably took ten times longer just to do basic stuff like doors.

I remember the last time I tried to make levels for the vanished Panophobia project, something like 7 years ago, I found doors really difficult at first! Teleporter traps were an utter pain in the arse and never worked right!

As for the comment about original maps not being the pinnacle of level design, this makes me sad. Playing the original maps after a long absence reminds you of just why Doom was so ferociously addictive. I'll take even a map I am not a fan of like Halls of the Damned over a massive, architecturally gorgeous slaughtermap with symmetrical rooms and symmetrical fights.

PSX DOOM: Fall of Triton

I've spoken about this at length elsewhere and don't want to piss the map author off by belabouring the point, so this will be brief.

Music: Superbly chosen and the new music is very frightening. This bloke gets PSX Doom.

Monster deployment: Often horrible, with huge blocks of monsters simply there every time you go round a corner or enter a room. Larger monsters are usually at the back so infighting occurs frequently. Way too many pink and nightmare demons. Some of the maps would be very challenging (i.e. nearly impossible) from a pistol start. However, several maps, particularly the later ones, have creative and punishing fights which will catch the player out. Ammo balance is all over the place at times, but tends towards keeping you decently stocked; one large fight with Cyberdemons and Barons could be problematic.

Map design: Absolutely beautiful and super-nostalgic, bearing in mind these are supposed to resemble PSX style maps with simplified architecture. I had a lump in my throat through a lot of the later levels and there are nods to the Threshold of Pain wad. The lighting is unfortunately flat and basic throughout, which is a trait of PC Doom, meaning maps that would be terrifying... often aren't. However, all the maps are fun to play, the secret maps are WELL worth finding. In fact my two favourite maps were both secret levels, one a hellish reimagining of the first map, the second a hellish remake of a classic Doom map. There are a lot of maps and none of them seem to drag on for long.

Difficulty level: Basically, trivial throughout, due to the way monsters are hurled at you like fodder.

Is it worth playing: Most certainly, especially if you like PSX Doom and want a longer megawad with shorter maps.

PSX DOOM: Fall of Triton II

I haven't played far into this yet. It's a reboot of the original megawad. So far the reboot only seems to add bells and whistles, although it messes with the lighting levels to make things creepier and more in line with PSX Doom. A few people complain about the ammo balance. It also for some reason slows the player down when you get hurt - who wanted that feature?

INNOCENCE X

A PSX/Doom 64 style mapset which all fans of Doom 64, or anyone looking for a stern challenge, must play.

Music: Creepy and disturbing, Hodges at his darkest.

Monster deployment: Extremely punitive, this mapset hates you and wants you to die. It's Doom 64 through and through, so is mean, scripted and full of traps. Ammo balance leans towards Resident Evil style so you rarely feel you have enough on UV, meaning there are places where you might have to cheat. Why are people making PSX-inspired megawads where you have no ammo? There was tons in the original game. The constant ambushes are vicious and sometimes don't give you chance to react; for example in one early level you go down a lift, there is a monster right behind you and chaingunners/knights in front of you, so you are guaranteed to die or take severe damage. This makes the levels challenging and therefore exciting, but being Doom 64, you see some of it coming. "Oh here's a switch, better hit it and summon ten Hell Knights." It is actually fun to keep going just to see how cruel things get. EDIT: If you complete the level "Unlucky Morpheus" without cheating, I congratulate you on your mastery of Doom.

Map design: Creepy, with a lot of dark, shadowy areas and various cool effects like thunder and lightning. Being scripted means there might be less replay value, but to be honest this is probably one to play on HMP and then step up to UV, so it doesn't matter. It incorporates the maddening dart traps from D64 which do a ton of damage. The maps feel varied and original and a lot of effort went into them. It features cool effects like room over room which we need to see more of in Doom.

Difficulty level: As stated, this is hideous on UV, but sometimes in an unfair way. I can't imagine playing the later maps from a pistol start. You might get 17 rockets, then face multiple Mancubi and Imps with a side order of 15 pink demons, and a berserk pack tucked away behind the wall of demons.

Is it worth playing: You need to get this on your list now. If you like horror-themed maps you'll love it. If you want to see something different from modern slaughtermaps (aka "posh Fiffy maps"), you'll love it. If you enjoyed Doom 64, you'll love it.