PVS

I'm glad to see that such a large number of people decided to participate in vanilla Heretic project. I hope, that each will get your own satisfaction from this process, even if there are few feedback, as always. riderr3 You got a good Heretic map, but I have real problems with it - I can not learn it! I spent a lot of time on this map, reached more than once to the exit and on the idea - I should know it well, but it does not happen for me. Every time, after the beginning and some progress the same thing starts for me - where am I? where do I go next? Where did I come from? Oh... This is only my problem, of course, but this is some kind of magic map :) For a long time I could not find the secret in the rock, I hated this, but after I found it - I liked the map more, heh Map have good gameplay, lights, mechanics, midi track, I did not notice any technical problems. Couple of funny moments, like a dancing Warrior on teleport and strange appearance Weredragons near the blue key, I noticed this and smiled, thanks for that. I'm attaching a couple of my max demos in vanilla format, maybe you'll find it interesting. Also guys, if somewhere in another place, maybe on Discord or elsewhere, you recorded demos in vanilla format, if possible - give links here too, I would like to see any Heretic demo records in vanilla format. prsmelt-max.zip

Of course, Hexen 1.1 is checked first, although I remember it well. I realized that this: in choco Hexen now works by default the map development mode. As far as I can see, the DevMaps command itself and this mode was thrown out from the choco Hexen source, but in mn_menu.c -> MN_Responder() - check F12 key has remained as part of this function, therefore it now works in all modes except the netgame. It is necessary to remove F12 check from MN_Responder(), it is not needed at all, in my opinion. F12 spy key should work only in netgame coop / coop demos, that now works normally, in single player / demo modes - spy key should not work completely.

Chocolate Hexen Strange behavior when press F12 spy key: in a single player game and when playback/recording single player demo - engine resets the player to the beginning of the map, only in netgame modes F12 work correctly. I see this problem on the Chocolate Hexen 2.3.0 and also on a very old version from 2010. Need check the operation of F12 spy key on the current version of the engine, I can not check it myself.

galileo31dos01, all original Heretic demo recording limits (128Kb limit, multi-levels, dies, etc.) have been expanded in Chocolate Heretic 2.3.0 (2016) and higher, need add -demoextend command line parameter, example: chocolate-heretic -file Tyrant.wad -warp 1 1 -skill 4 -record MyDemo -demoextend Thanks for pacifist demo: your time 2:11.11, this is magic, because I have exactly the same time in one of my demos! What Chocolate Heretic version did you use here?

In vanilla Heretic, the Firemace always has a 75% chance of spawning. Like a lot of things in the Raven games, this was done Because Reasons. Of course, but if you working in editor over your map - you can control some points from this "75% chance" for firemace in one constant for game engine situation - when map started for the first time. Further need a more deeper technical conversation, which will be a problem for my bad English, but if you're interested - I can try. In any case, you will need to spend your time to test this moments and see it yourself, not relying solely on someone's words. If I work on my map and add firemace - I want the player to get it, this can be easy controlled by changing the number of things on the map, this will change the overall map random factor. When map is almost finished I always check that firemace appear on all skill levels (easy, medium, hard) when map started. When player dies, press space and reborn - this is other situation and it is impossible to control map random factor in this case. For this "Tyrant's Tomb" map I add around 10 wall torches and firemace began always normally appear on skill-4,5 when map started for the first time, as well as on easy and medium skills. In any case, this is not a very important moment, but only a small technical question, and of course, I'm talking only about original game and fully vanilla compatible engines in this case. I see, that ETTiNGRiNDER have some small optimizations for the cooperative mode on this map. I'm ready to test this on Chocolate Heretic 2.3.0 if someone makes me a company. Also, we can record some vanilla coop demos, this is my personal interest :)

ETTiNGRiNDER, thanks for vanilla Heretic map! Like other your maps - this one also I liked, the map itself and some new textures are good. Gameplay on skill 4: as before, your strategy is to complicate the life of the player - to deprive him of ammo and artifacts, well... I personally never realized why the maps authors are so worried about complexity and are trying to reach it in this way. In Heretic I need my weapons, ammo and artifacts, I need this all at once to destroy these bastards monsters from all sides, this is a game, not a sniper school. Many times I read how the people say that in Heretic is bad: that monsters drop ammo, that Mage drop tome, Lich drop egg, etc, - all this breaks them (the map authors) - balance. When the Mage gives me a book - I'm smiling, I understand, that game engine is trying to help me, I take this book and beat these monsters on your map, I'm happy as a child at this moment! I do not understand why it's bad - it's good, I'm playing a Heretic game! But when I do not have ammo, because I missed a couple of times and did not hit, there are no artifacts - it's a sadly gameplay... Balance on the map is always important, but not through player limit strategy, this is just my opinion, I understand, that many Heretic guys will disagree with me. A few small moments that I noticed on this map: - secret area with chaos device contain 2 secret sectors (2in1 secrets); - some wall torches far from walls; - areas near green key very dark; - firemace does not appear on its spots on skill-4,5 if map started for the first time. Possible try changing things quantity in steps of about 5-10 (any things: monsters, ammo, lights, decorations, etc). It would be good if map P_Random allowed to appear firemace on any skill levels if map start for the first time. Also, there are very few ammo for firemace, why? I'm not sure, that this my demo records in vanilla format will be interest to someone, but I recorded them for myself, in attachment: first attempt, speed (skill4,5), pacifist, max (skill4), nomonsters. I would be glad to see any demos in vanilla format for this map from other Heretic guys! ETTiNGRiNDER, you made another good map, I played some interesting hours on it, thanks! Tyrant-PVS.zip

It's interesting, more than 23 years after game release, someone finds something new for me, new trick-bug in my favorite Heretic! I watched this demo and I understood how this happens and that this is the original engine error, another one :) I've never seen information about such wings trick and never paid attention to myself, something like - it is possible to leave "one wings" for the next map (in certain circumstances) in movie runs/demos, it's really interesting... Xindage, did you find this trick yourself or this information written somewhere? I counted your demo time - it turns out to be 6:19 (without E1M8), not 6:16, right? What game engine (or game exe) did you use to record this demo? If by "WR" you mean "world record" - then yes, your time is the fastest at this moment, for E1 speed movie run on Smite-Meister (Skill-4). I don't see the reason - do not allow this demo for Heretic-N and DSDA databases, in my opinion - this is a new trick-bug in the original game engine. In any case, if someone does not agree, then let them say their opinion.

If I remember correctly, D64 Absolution based on Doomsday 1.7.xx versions, where "-maxzone" parameter means how much RAM will be allocated for the port. For example, a later Doomsday 1.8.6 version can use no more than 256MB RAM, for this reason, it makes no sense to set more memory with the -maxzone command. Try this command syntax for 128MB allocated for the port: -maxzone 128m If it does not help, and you again crash: add "-verbose" parameter to your command line, it will give a more detailed log, after crash find Doomsday.out (or Absolution.out) in your D64 Absolution folder, look at it, maybe there you will find a solution to your problem. Or attach this log file here, may be I can help.

I thought that you would add more maps to the current four, but I understand, of course, that not many people will be interested in this topic. My personal interest here is that this is vanilla Heretic maps, I never liked to play Heretic/Hexen on Z/GZDoom. In your previous wad version I noticed a problem with vanilla engines only on E1M1, but now I see that you have corrected these minor bugs with textures and tags. Also, now I see what did you mean with D'Sparil on E1M4, in the previous version his role on the map was completely unclear. As a result, you've got compact maps with good Heretic gameplay, not very easy skill level (for me at least), in any case, I had a good time playing, thanks! If suddenly you decide to continue - let me know, I have small ideas for such maps, it would be good to make a full episode. But again, I do not think that you will get many feedback for this work... Attaching Max movie demo record in vanilla format for current wad version, maybe someone will be interested. I think it's luck, but for playback this demo do not need limit-removing port, vvHeretic4 or Chocolate Heretic 2.3.0 can be used. But I think, that limit-removing needs a minimum for E1M2 in this wad, where sometimes in the usual situation it is possible to catch the excess for visplanes. hpmPMAD2.zip

SOSU, I correctly understood that you are work on the one map - one day? Or are you uploading one map per day and the work with one map takes longer? Do you plan that these maps will be fully compatible with vanilla engines (or vanilla + limit removing) or it is not necessary for you?

veovisRC, it's just crazy demos, it's just incredible, what you're doing here with Hexen, all on 10 min, oh :) I like many interesting moments: when you can ride on Afrit, spawn Maulotaur and turn him into a pig, also I see, you now easily pass through any bars, threw off a pair of pounds? :) I understand - it's speed, speed with tricks, ok, but how about normal records, in which it was shown progress on each map, you are not interested in it? Cleric and Mage demos it would also be interesting, the situation will be different for these characters. Deathkings of the Dark Citadel addon have good 3 hubs, do not forget about him. In any case, these are very rare demos, I'm glad that this demos in vanilla format. I know that you know - almost no one will watch them, but be sure - I always watch, because I'm interested. Thank you for this material, for your rare interest and time!

Of course guys, I know well that this project is oriented on ZDoom's ports, but for my personal reasons I use vanilla engines for play this maps, which of them is possible for vanilla or limit removing ports. HexenMapper About 'During the Ceremony' we talked with BeeWen some time ago, but then this map was in E1M1 slot. Now, when map used E2M8 slot we get an interesting and unusual situation for vanilla engines: main boss on the map is the Maulotaur, not D'Sparil. If player kill all Maulotaur's - he also kill all rest monsters and 1/2 D'Sparil (Serpent), heh. Further, if fight with D'Sparil, he can spawn Disciple's and then D'Sparil die - all his Disciple's die too. Then this map in E2M8 slot it generates something like a double boss kills for rest monsters, it's fun and interesting, in my opinion, I do not see here any problems with gameplay, even vice versa - for player possible different strategies, which is good. BeeWen not used 666 tag here, for this reason, there is no confusion with too early opening the exit if Maulotaur's die. I do not know how ZDoom's works with this map, but I'm sure that you know this better.

I see that E1M6 by Jon is not working now on vanilla engines, in the alpha version this map worked normally on Heretic+ and Crispy. Noticed the mention about tag 666 in txt, I'm not sure if you still need this information, but in original Heretic - tag 666 works only on ExM8 maps and depends from the episode. Iron Lich can be the boss with working tag 666 on E1M8, E4M8; Maulotaur on E2M8, E5M8; D'Sparil on E3M8 (as in the original iwad). It's easy to check, if you move E1M6 to E1M8 slot - the exit sector will normally down to the floor after the all Lich'es death. Death of Iron Lich bosses on E1M8 not kill the rest monsters, on E4M8 - kill. Doomsday works correctly as the original game in this part, for this reason, this problem is obtained for this port.

Heh, how did you find this place? I'm wondering - what is this, a map or game engine error? Some time ago I was able to watch a coop demo by JCD & Ch0wW, where they do many similar tricks and go through the whole 5 game hubs in 16 minutes. I understand, find such places on maps and use them - probably interesting and fun, but I do not know - what are you guys doing? Why so mock our game? :) You record this demo on Chocolate Hexen 2.3.0? If this is important information for you - Chocolate Hexen is not fully compatible with the original game, sometimes you can record a demo which can only be played on Chocolate Hexen. It is better to use Hexen-Plus for movies and lengthy records. Another, seven years old example, where Andrey Budko passes the third hub in 2 minutes. Oh, poor Hexen ... hub3_AndreyBudko_147.zip

In this place you can omit the column, so that the player does not get stuck. Use 'kitty' is not necessary for E2M4.

In this txt's you're also too lazy to write your nickname completely? In previous EP1,3 you wrote - veovis, in this - veo. For any database is bad, if one person has a different nickname. How it will be correct? :) Now, record table for SM speed movies - full by veovis! It's hard work, I know it. Periodically I also try record speed movie for EP5, not yet successfully at the moment. Just like an idea: according to the Heretic-N rules - movies can contain a minimum of 2 completed maps, so far no one has recorded a EP6 movie, I wonder why? E6M1 and E6M2 completed maps, E6M3 does not contain exit, then, for first 2 maps - possible record a small EP6 movie! heh... Also, if you record SM speed demos for 5 secret maps - it will be full SM speed Heretic by veovis! Only E6M3 will remain, where possible record only Max with savegame tic in demo. I watched this demos and noticed one interesting technical detail on E5M7: veovis slightly thicker than JCD! See for yourself - JCD it easily passes through the bars to the blue key, but to veovis needs to help himself with a Phoenix! For me remains a mystery - from where the Heretic engine can know about it? I searched in source code and did not find anything about 'thickness of players' :) Great records, thanks for uploading!

I agree that for Hexen 'Skill 4 Speed + Class' will be better than 'WL speed' etc., otherwise it will be really a lot of obscure categories. Hexen is not very suitable for recording speed demos for single maps, from the original iwad's there are literally several maps suitable for this, but for hub's movies, PWAD's speedruns, etc. - the situation is much better. In any case, Hexen demos will be rare, even compared with Heretic. In 2014 Opulent recorded demo-pack for Hexen, I've been watching these demos on Hexen+ since then - he did an excellent and difficult job, also very rare! Some time ago, Opulent also sent me more complete archive with Hexen demos, I looked at their, this collection motivated me and now I have one more hobby project :) I looked all Hexen demos from this collection and in general I represent the situation, if you need any help about these demos - maybe I can help, now I have some information.

Impie, Reject this is not a marker: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Reject You can find enough information about Reject lump, if you're interested. Many modern source ports do not use it, but Reject is important if you are making a map for the vanilla game or for vanilla-oriented ports like Chocolate/Crispy Heretic or old source ports. If you remove Reject lump completely - vanilla/chocolate/crispy Heretic will not be able to work with this map. Your latest version of the map compatible with vanilla or Chocolate/Crispy Heretic? Because if not and you focus only on ZDoom, then Reject lump is not important for you.

Chocolate Hexen 2.3.0 (Win32): 1) Deathkings of the Dark Citadel. For me not possible to launch DM map 36, Chocolate go to quiet crash without visible errors in stderr.txt or stdout.txt. Vanilla Hexen normal open this map. 2) I discovered for myself the problem of the original game and Chocolate Hexen. For example: I'm -warp on Map 7 and Skill 3 from command line -> if I die on first map (without passing the first teleport) -> player always reborn on Map 1 and Skill 1. If I'm -warp on Map 1 and Skill 3 from command line, die on first map -> player always reborn on Skill 1. This is happens only for startup from command line, because if run game on skill 3 from main menu and die on first map -> player normally reborn on Skill 3. In my opinion, for this reason, two bad situations are possible for Chocolate Hexen: - player warp on Map 1 and Skill 3 (any skill > 1) from command line (used some PWAD's, for example) -> if he die on first map, player may simply not notice that he continues to play on skill 1; - not possible record correct first attempts demos (FDA), where the deaths of a player is common, including deaths on the first map. I see that Hexen+ resolve this situation, if warp on map from command line -> Hexen+ always forces creation of temp save game (base and reborn slot) and if player die on first map -> engine will use this reborn slot automatically and player always reborn on correct map and skill. In my opinion, it would be good to fix this moment in Chocolate Hexen.

In 2 maps by BeeWen and in map by Impie I see zero length REJECT lump. I would like to know - for what purposes is it necessary or any of the source ports it requires? Which map editor creates such map files? Zero length REJECT lump will be a problem for the original Heretic engine + limit removing, especially for demo recording/playback. BeeWen, about an hour I tried to survive on the 'During the ceremony' and I succeeded. I like this map, thanks.

Hexen 1.1, Map01, Mage, vanilla demo format: No monsters - 0:52 Pacifist - 1:07 Speed (skill-4) - 1:00 Speed (skill-5) - 1:03 Max (skill-4) - 3:11 Max (skill-5) - 3:24 For file names I use the classification from Heretic-N, well suited for Hexen too. kraflab, how do you think? But Hexen have 3 players classes, each class has its own skills names, for this reason I'm not sure how to name speed and Max categories for the database? For NoMo and Pacifist fits good, but other categories - need to think... If try to name it the same way, then for Mage: skill-4 'Warlock' and skill-5 'ArchiMage', then the names can be: WL speed/Max and AM speed/Max :) It's not very important of course, but it's good to come up with a classification for Hexen too. Respawn/Nightmare category will be empty, I think, because of Hexen specificity. As well as Max - a very conventional category is obtained, because Hexen is constantly respawn monsters during the game. Hexen01Mage.zip

Grazza thanks, this full sort list is useful to me.

Ribbiks, you can make the same sorted list for Heretic/Hexen wads?

kb1, this is interesting technical information for me, thanks. Yes, in my opinion, this "Reject fix/padding" can be added to the Heretic in a similar form as it is now present in Doom/Strife games in Chocolate project. Of course, I understand, that Doom has a huge number of wads and a huge number of players vs Heretic/Hexen, perhaps for this reason it makes more sense and motivation that this fix now work for Doom game. But I do not see any technical problems if this solution will work in Heretic/Hexen too, even though this task is of low priority and will rarely be used in these games. Also, maybe it's worth adding the option - to disable this Reject fix/padding, that will rarely be used too, maybe only for tests or technical interest, but such a possibility will correspond to the overall project philosophy, in my opinion.

Heretic, Arena, E3M8 NM Speed - 4:02 Forgot about Nightmare category. Arn402n.zip