PVS

Thanks again NY00123, this is interesting update for me. In last time I was able to integrate in my hobby nearly all important and detailed differences between 1.1 and 1.0 versions according to your sources, just for my own interest. It even works well and almost everything I was able to switch in real time, to my surprise, heh.

I already have some work for Shareware versions based on information from Chocolate Hexen sources and some of my observations, but now there is an opportunity for me to clarify everything thoroughly, according to your work.

A small suggestion: it would be nice if you could show in documentation checksums of the versions that you used in work, I think - MD5 or CRC32 is enough. Because as of the 'exe' date, I don't quite understand which Shareware Demo exe version you were using.

I have this Shareware Demo exe versions (MD5):
1. C2DDA1704B8E302E05C26F69433729F3 (Shareware Demo v1, 1995/10/02)
2. 458D3FF08D32FC50ABB55A5B68660B6B (Shareware Demo v2, 1995/10/18)

I look at dates by the exe themselves, but the exact same dates are listed in their documentation (Readme.txt). If I understand correctly, you used a Shareware Demo exe with a date 1995/10/16, it turns out - is there a third version?

Also, the earliest version of HeXen remains, if you are interested, of course:
3A6603328F832314A4054E005DA087C6 (HeXen Retail Store Beta, 1995/09/27).
 

Possible change the text output in a way that is more convenient for your script parser, this is not a problem, I have never really seen PrBoom+ output with this information. Check your PM.
 

Understandably, if you collect demos from forum automatically - then "incoming" folder is not necessary, of course.

Level statistics in Heretic. At the moment for chocolate I have this: then you playback or timedemo in Stdout.txt statistics logged in this form:

If this is what will help you and need - it can be easily done for any port, your crispy for example, it's not difficult at all, I can help with that (if need).
 

In fact, DSDA now the only one database for Heretic/Hexen demos, even if you update the state less often, 2 times in year - it will still be good for these games. 'because we don't have an equivalent prboom+ with levelstat' - I can't quite understand what do you mean, in details?

Also, just as a suggestion for DSDA - maybe better make a regular "incoming" folder on site, where people would upload demos themselves? It will be easier and faster admin this "incoming" folder, than manually collecting all demos from forum topics.

You found another one good map, even sadly, that it is very small. I even wanted to record more longer demo where the whole map could be seen, heh

Heretic: Candy choppers by Paul Corfiatis:
SM max in 2:17
vanilla format
 

Pch1m217.zip

Walter confetti, in your txt I see that you tested on "heretic.exe 3.0" - what is it? I want it! :)
You changed the map name and your nick as well? ok.

Heretic: Heriophant's Temple by Walter "daimon" Confalonieri:

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/heretic/d-f/dai-75m4h
SM max in 5:04
vanilla format
 

75m4m504.zip

Hexen: Fighter Hub-1 skill-4 movies:
speed in 12:36
max in 39:58
vanilla format

After recording Fighter and Cleric demos - I saw that Mage runs looks very weak, decided to try again, it turned out much faster:
speed in 17:47
max in 49:23

kraflab, take these last Mages demos in base instead of the previous ones, if you agree that in Hexen max'es possible not kill all respawn/extra monsters.
 

se1f1236.zip

me1f3958.zip

se1m1747.zip

me1m4923.zip

Hexen: Cleric Hub-1 skill-4 movies:
speed in 15:09
max in 45:37
vanilla format

Cleric much faster than Mage, also, I was able to catch all extra monsters in max, i.e. this is 'absolute' max, heh.
 

se1c1509.zip

me1c4537.zip

Hexen: Mage's Hub-1 skill-4 movies:
speed in 19:32
max in 55:01
vanilla format

Hub-1 possible finish in 1 minute, I know, these my demos without tricks and I'm not sure - such demos are needed or not? Also, it would be nice to talk about the max rules for Hexen, if anyone is interested I set out my version in txt. I assume that chocolate currently does not support these demos, if anyone wants to watch them - DOS Hexen-Plus or CHexen are recommended.

DSDA: this Hexen demos by Andrey Budko recorded on skill-1, not on skill-4:

https://dsdarchive.com/files/demos/hexen/760/se1f-524.zip

https://dsdarchive.com/files/demos/hexen/761/se1f-544.zip
se1m1932.zip

me1m5501.zip

In my opinion, need to add to this list Heretic/Hexen Plus by Andrey Budko, which are often needed for newer pwad's, especially Hexen Plus, because there all in one - extended limits and normal demo playback/recording state.

Heretic 1.3a/Hexen 1.1a - not for demo recording, as long as I remember, this project has a different goal - an expanded network game modes vs vanilla. I need to test it again, but I’m sure, that I would remember if these versions changed the vanilla demo recording state to the better.

heh, ok, hold my whirl, everything further is just my personal opinion. Any attempts to make a mouselook on original renderer looks like shit. For normal +-90 degrees mouselook - need have normal 3D renderer, take any Doomsday and you will see there what should be a normal mouselook for vanilla Doom-engines.

About ravmouse - this is an interesting program, interesting hobby, if this mouselook is enough for anyone - good, why not. I do not use any mouselook for game/recording, I do not need it at all in this games, I continue to use mouse +-Y strafe, and this is not possible to do comfortably with active mouselook. In any case, if you run ravmouse like this 'ravmouse -?' - you see the compilation date, on your link this is Aug 21 2016, I have version from Jul 22 2017, but don’t remember where I get it. If you want it in your collection - take it, but I recommend contacting with xttl, he's still here, maybe he has a newer version for a long time.
 

RavMouse2017.zip

Redneckerz

Not, this is original 1.1-1 exe without fixed A_SoAExplode function. Versions differ only in hash and with the same file size, I renamed it so that it would be easier to use in the main Hexen 1.1 folder, and most importantly, so that someone would not accidentally erase their latest exe version, considering that they are the same. Everyone can have their own exe time stamp, especially if you use the original patch'es, you can’t focus on the time stamp.

NY00123
Noticed a little moment in your Hexen source: Sv_save.c, SV_MapTeleport() contains a number of changes for 1.1, but look at the 'boolean playerWasReborn' var here, it remained initialized in the function header for 1.0, but used only in 1.1. I can be wrong, but logically - it should not be at all here for version 1.0, because this boolean never used at all, not?
 

Sadly, but I don't know much about original dos sound code at all. I sometimes work with win ports quite a bit, there is already it's own sound/music implementation.

About Hexen terminology specifics (or even about other games) - you can try to ask here, it is quite possible that someone will tell you the necessary information and it will somehow help. Differences between Hexen 1.0 it would be interesting to know, but I'm not sure - how much time and effort this process requires. There may not be differences in code, maybe Raven just recompiled exe for some reason? Commented out unused functions, etc., exe size is the same, that's strange, but this is possible if there are not many changes in code. I never tried to compare 1.0 versions on practice, tried only compared 1.1.

The difference which you found between 1.1 versions - I recorded for myself in a demo on a small test map, possible easily see it visually. This is 1.1-1 demo and will not playback correctly on the latest version. I’m also included the 1.1-1 exe itself, renamed it as Hexen111, so that someone wouldn’t accidentally erase its latest version. This demo can also be interesting for guys who really like the game itself, and who thinks - that everyone knows about it for a long time. I recorded here some rare behaviors of original engine, like broken Mage/Cleric statusbar, mystical flights of projectiles and the most interesting Mage trick with 4th weapon, about which another person told me about a year ago. I was shocked that the original engine behaves like this, I never would have guessed it myself to do these crazy actions in the game, heh

For demoplayback put exe, wad, lmp files from the archive into your Hexen 1.1 folder, run game with command line:
Hexen111 -file Xscrolls.wad -nomonsters -playdemo 111jXscr
Have fun!
 

111jXscr.zip

NY00123
About CHexen you can ask its author, how sound and music works in this version I don’t know for sure.

I also noticed many years ago that I have 2 different 1.1 exe versions, but how exactly they differ - I found out just now, from your source code. I periodically compared them for compatibility, playback/recording demos on them - I didn’t found any differences, but I have not tried 'nomonsters' mode. In fact, finding this difference visually very difficult, because A_SoAExplode can spawn monsters in an explosion, but it is used in the main maps very far, only in Deathkings of the Dark citadel, maps 47-50, 54, 57 (numbers in wad) - Raven uses spawn monsters in A_SoAExplode. But this fix also means that version 1.1-1 (I will call it that) and all previous versions will show this error visually, I tested it - it really is. Version 1.1-1, 1.0, Retail Beta - spawn monsters from 'Suit of Armor' thing in 'nomonsters' mode.

I have this 1.1 exe versions with the same file size, but different MD5 (maybe it will help to find the third version, heh):
1. 713319E8ADBC34BCA8E06DBAFF96F86C (v1.1-1, without fix, located on Hexen 1.1 CD)
2. DFE619E8C6E3339359D62CDA11E5375B (v1.1-2, with fixed A_SoAExplode)

Both versions from 1996, but it’s interesting, that this 1.1 CD also contains Hexen95 version, and Hexen95 already has a fixed A_SoAExplode function, but DOS version from this CD is not fixed. Where I got the 1.1-2 version I don’t even remember from now, most likely from a separate Raven's patch, but I have both of them in my Hexen 1.1 folder for a long time, I rotated them, hoping to see at last - how they differ, heh

There are also at least two 1.0 versions:
1. 08F08CAD60C899CDCE784C3ADF6C5A6A (v1.0-1)
2. 435FD8C4770EDF31B62BEBD64AAE9332 (v1.0-2)

Both versions with the same file size and from 1995. I assume that version 1.0-2 was on the 1.0 CD, but not sure.
 

Hey, you did it! I tried many times but fails, now you freed me from this task :) Demo time doesn't bother me at all, the main thing is that it happened and recorded. Demo seems not interesting and easy until you try it yourself, I know for sure, for me it interesting, thanks!

Hisymak
Yes, you solved this correctly! heh. There is also a chain from Fighter, i.e. just the full Fighter status bar is displayed, instead of the desired one. This happens for Cleric and Mage on the vanilla Hexen only in demo playback mode. It's easy to see, start the game and watching the demos in the main menu, Demo-2 and 3 will be for Mage and Cleric.

Even more, these two examples from playback a solo-DM demo, engine is trying to apply patch'es for 4th Cleric/Mage weapon on the Fighter status bar, it turns out bad:

Gokuma
Not sure, that vanilla Hexen will be able to show text between maps, only hubs end's and final texts. For modern source ports - it should be possible.
 

Yes, possible interpret it like that.

I’m not sure what you mean, Raven published their last 1.1 source and which code was previously in 1.0 - just were unknown until this moment (as far as I know).

This hard work by NY00123 may be of interest not only for Chocolate project - for all, who are interested in these details. I strongly doubt that Hexen 1.0 will be of interest to Chocolate team.

fixed my screens above, I hope they can be seen now, sorry.
 

NY00123
Thanks, I like exe name, nearly strip poker, heh

I tested - everything works well! Not sure if you need such information or not, tested on real old hardware (not dosbox), DOS7, Dos4gw 1.97, compare only with original Hexen 1.0. SFX/midi music - sounds somewhere at 1/3 of the usual volume, sometimes SFX is strange, but in general it’s not bad, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Recorded/playback several test demos - compatibility is there, I do not see any desync's vs original 1.0 at the moment. Save game files - compatible, I don’t know why you said that there might be a problem, everything works for me.

I understand the problem with licensed sound/music code, but I wonder how compiled CHexen, it is 1.1 version, but it sounds identical to the original for me and does not require Dos4gw, interesting. I also achieved save game files 1.0 compatibility from port, according to your sources, but only static for now, in test build. I would like to do this optionally, ideally - on the fly, but so far I don’t know how to change all necessary frame/state/mobj structures in Info.c/h on the fly, without engine restarts. I’m sure that this is possible, I’m just new to this task.

At the expense of your work/hobby plans - I understand you, in any case, thank you again, for me your Hexen 1.0 work on this project has many interesting details that can now be easily viewed. Hexen still have other PC versions, like Hexen95 - where we again see demos desync's right from iwad, according to the old Raven tradition. Shareware Demo-1,2 exe versions and Retail store beta - a lot of work ahead, heh, just kidding.

Vermil
Yes, you're right, all this text was in exe in 1.0 and older, maybe Raven move it to iwad specifically for us, so that we can easily change it, in our maps/hubs? Also, it always seemed to me that in 1.0 more corpses on the floor, now, looking at the 1.0 source - it seems that this is really so, Ettin and Afrit corpses not removed at all by engine in 1.0, I think.

And now, it will also be easier to find this small difference:

Some effects, projectiles, torches, etc. - were dim in 1.0, I noticed this for a long time, and this is comes from engine, not from iwad. Most likely, it was a small bug that was fixed in 1.1. This screens from original 1.0 and 1.1 versions. As an option, this happens with 1.0 only on my hardware, not sure. Also, on this screens visible one more original bug, if anyone notices, at the same time we check whether - there are Hexen guys here or not :)

Next session? I am pleased. I see you're flying good already, no? heh
I hope you remember that Heretic will not respawn monsters on skill-5, most likely you recorded NM 100S without -respawn.

Heretic: 75 monsters by Walter confetti:
https://www.doomworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=84656
NoMo 100S in 1:06.54
vanilla format

Map taken from this topic:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/114064-75-monsters-map-for-heretic/

I recorded this small attempt with only one purpose - so that this nice little map is not lost in history, in this forum. I'm not sure that Walter will upload it in any wad-base, and now, this map will be grab in DSDA database and we will keep it in this way. I don’t even know why guys in 'WADs & Mods' section will not create a separate small topic for Heretic/Hexen maps, their quantity is small and it’s very difficult to find among tons of work for Doom.
 

75m4o106.zip

NY00123
Thank you very much for this work! These sources are good, it’s very convenient to read the differences between 1.0 and 1.1 versions when the code is in one 2in1 files. I also have a technical interest in Hexen/Heretic 1.0 versions and a few years ago I tried to achieve compatibility with Hexen/Heretic 1.0, but I have no experience in reverse and I used a more primitive and incorrect way.

Can I ask you to compile your Hexen 1.0 version? I can’t do it myself, but would be interested to test it in practice. I looked at this source a little, it seems to me you also could catch a Hexen 1.0 save game files compatibility, are you sure that they are not compatible? If you can attach the compiled version here or in PM, I would be very grateful.

Have similar sources for Heretic 1.0 would be great, of course. My compatibility with Heretic 1.0 is not complete, somewhere I didn’t find/don’t know something, but I could try to remember which functions are of the greatest interest, if it helps you. I understand that your goal is different - recreated original version byte-by-byte, for me it’s like a separate mode that need to turn on/off on the fly, in the source port.

Redneckerz
Thanks for showing me this topic, I'm surprised that there are still people who are interested in old Hexen/Heretic versions.
 

Vanilla maps are rare now, everyone likes ZDoom format or mods. Also remember how I played one of your previous map "Deep Blue", it was interesting, but I died there many times, heh.

Attach the vanilla version, also today I noticed yet - that possible easily steal your green key, without lowering the sector, moved it a bit deeper. I want to ask - why do you need PLAYPAL lump here? I checked - it identical to the original, left him as is, maybe I didn’t understand something. Also, I would recommend to always add Deathmatch starts even if map is not intended for DM at all, this is 10 seconds, but it will help to avoid vanilla engines crashes if someone tries to load map in DM mode.

I'll leave my first attempt demo, maybe someone will be interested to see, this is more an overview for map itself, not speedrun.
 

75m4h (vanilla).zip

hfa75m4h-PVS.zip

This map in this state cannot work on vanilla or Chocolate/Crispy and others vanilla ports, they go in crash when trying to load this map. Problem in PNAMES and TEXTURE2 lumps, I modified them a bit so that they are be compatible with vanilla engines. Map starts works well, it doesn’t even require a limit removing, at least I didn’t catch any limits on Heretic 1.3.

Interesting and neat medium-sized map, I liked, balance is not focused on "very difficult", which also is good in my opinion. I recorded vanilla first attempt demo, almost first attempt, because at first I worked with map resources and checked result in the editor, i.e. saw a little the map.

Walter confetti, I'm not sure that you will not think badly of me if I attach this small modification of your map, but if you do not mind - tell me, I will do it without problems. Thanks for the vanilla format anyway, I like to play Heretic only in this way.
 

Why this -shorttics command is needed, what should it do?

plums
It's good that you do this for Heretic/HeXen, I hope you like the games themselves.
 

GarrettChan
Chocolate/Crispy Heretic not have command -shorttics. If you meant -shortticfix, then it works and needed only for demorecording process, this command not works in single game and demoplayback.
 

Sometimes people are lazy to read documentation and do not know anything about Heretic/Hexen -demoextend in choco. Even more - I do not see any documentation in the latest archives of the Crispy project, I have to look for it on the Internet, why? You guys are talking about -demoextend, but didn’t you forget about another important choco -shortticfix command for recording demos?

I think it happened just by chance and was not originally planned, but -demoextend adds interesting combinations of functional in choco, about one of these combination kraflab says, this is not possible to do on vvHeretic. In my opinion for easier use for people - need reverse logic in these commands, when -demoextend and -shortticfix will works by default, but it can be disabled by using new commands like '-noDemoextend' and '-noShortticfix', i.e. functional is not removed. This reverse is easy to do in the source, for me it works without any problems.