Rook

I had a peep at the texture WAD in Slade 3 (which is still kind of like black magic to me at this stage) and it looks as though yes, there are a lot of switches not included in ANIMDEFS - oh well, there was enough to be getting on with. Ah, I didn't realise idgames uploads were down. If you could help with vanilla- and standalone-ness that would be great - thanks plums.

+1 from me for BTSX - it has incredible music, textures, gameplay and manages to be more than the sum of its parts. Also I'll echo Creaphis' nomination for Forsaken Overlook. It's probably the best single map I've ever played: huge, challenging, and beautiful with a genuinely epic feel.

I've just uploaded a second version of the map - the link in the OP should now take you to that new version. Here's a summary of changes: - The gauntlets of the necromancer and yellow key have switched places - One or two additional items have been added - Broken crusher tagging has been fixed - I've made a slight overhaul to the texturing in places to make it a little more varied and play up the underground aspect - The final switch now also raises the nearby bars, making a completist run much more convenient - Added a few cobwebs, stalagmites and other minor aesthetic changes Thank you to Dragonsbrethren and plums particularly for all the comments - with these changes I've tried to follow your advice as far as possible. If nothing is horribly broken in this second version I'll upload to /idgames when I can - it's not perfect or a huge first release but it'll be good experience to get something small up there first I think. plums, yes I know what you mean about both the textures and the Doom feel. Probably because I'm such a latter-day player I don't really get on that well with Heretic's (or Doom's) core textures and I often find custom ones easier to align and generally design with. Heretic's gameplay does have a kind of indefinable quality, for sure - I don't think I can explain it. I'm so much more used to Doom gameplay and mapping (inexperienced as I am) that it's inevitable this map has a very Doom-esque feel. I'm just glad that people can have a few minutes of fun with it, as it'd been a good learning experience for me.

"Wounded bafflement" - DotW, I love that phrase. It sums up so much of what I feel about Vile Flesh in general! MAP11: War Rooms (UV, NecroDoom) By comparison with the last map, this is definitely OK. There's nothing particularly exceptional about it except for three things – first, there seems to be a real lack of substantial weaponry outside of secret areas (which again, I was unable to find). Second, the contrast lighting is very pronounced in one or two places, particularly in the room with lots of lifts which I found a little unpleasant to be in. And third, I think there is a real problem with the pathing in the map. For some reason, Williams gives us two choices of direction from the spawn point – one leads to the 90% of the map that needs completing first, and the other leads to a total pitch-black deathtrap which is also a dead end. Because I got lost in that 90%, I briefly thought I was meant to somehow slog through the darkness. It just makes no sense – the latter area shouldn't (in my view) be available to the player at all until it's actually passable. There are even lamps inside which cast no light, in a WAD where Williams makes much of lamps casting rays at specific angles! All that said, this could be the best music track in the WAD so far – which is saying something. I really like the heavy emphasis on drums, and the whole thing feels genuinely ominous. From a quick search it doesn't seem as though Monsieur Williams went on to do much else after this, which seems a shame as I could see his music working in any number of WADs.

I've had a poke around with this tonight and although it does show its age in a number of ways, I've actually really enjoyed it (as an aside, this WAD takes my last of in-progress playthroughs to... a large number). One thing that surprises me to some extent is the sheer number of enemies early on while playing on UV, which makes it a real bloodbath. I can also see what 40oz means about the emphasis on suitability for all kinds of game modes within the same map - that's really interesting. Also, I'm really excited if UAC Ultra 2 is on the cards!

Thanks for taking a look everyone! These are really helpful thoughts Dragonsbrethren. I guess the only logic behind the gauntlets part was just to create a bit of a minor setpiece by having an ambush which makes the gauntlets useful (in the same way that demons often appear after you find a chainsaw in Doom maps). Maybe it would make sense to add extra health to that area so the player doesn't feel excessively punished? I'm open to other suggestions, though. There is an item in one of the secrets you missed (a secret I thought was pretty easy to spot actually) - I suppose I find items a bit harder to work in as I don't understand Heretic as well as I do Doom. I may see if I can squeeze more in. I see what you mean about the switches - I'll switch (aha) those out. I'm a bit confused as to why some of the switches in the texture pack - or at least things I think are meant to be switches - don't seem to animate properly. It seems like anything that doesn't say ON/OFF in it doesn't work, even though I'm sure they're meant to be switches. I'm glad the crusher seems to work... it needed modifying as originally it was certain death if you got caught in it! There aren't any ZDoom-specific features per se but I believe the textures are in PNG format which is the issue. I wasn't originally planning to upload to /idgames as I thought it might be too short a WAD, but if people think it's worth it I'll give it a go after I've made some changes and corrections.

MAP10: Beacon Alright, so here it is – I cheated in this utter car crash of a map. It all looked so promising, with that big dark vista with revenants in silhouette. Before too long, though, I find myself in a map which is huge just for the sake of it, extremely obtuse in terms of its progression and the effect of switches, and way too full of high health monsters with very little ammo to be found. From a GZDoom perspective at least, there also seems to be a lot of very broken texturing. In the end, it was running around lost and dodging shots from mancubi I didn't have the ammo to shoot that broke me and I ended up using iddqd. To me this is just a bad, bad, horrible map that I cannot praise on any level. I honestly can't get my head around why this was considered good, even as long ago as 2004.

MAP09: Weapons Bay ("UV", NecroDoom) Again, some improvement here – actually, I think this is the best map in the WAD so far, although it's still nothing special. What I like is that Williams tries a few “experimental” things – a key that gets sealed out of reach, a room that appears to reconfigure itself as a switch is hit, and so on. He does over-reach a bit, which means that there are some fairly egregious examples of bad texturing due to the tricks he employs, but I appreciate the thought that has gone into some of this. Interestingly, mancubi finally show up here after both archviles and cyberdemons have already made their mark. A single hell knight blocks the exit on UV which makes for a bit of an anticlimactic finish.

I've just played the first seven maps but so far I can definitely go along with pizzabob's idea that this is Doom II the way id should have done it. I've never liked many of Doom II's maps, am very bored of its textures and tend to prefer more modern-style maps and yet this WAD feels fresh in a lot of ways. While it will never be as iconic as Doom II (because, well, only Doom II is) it's full of non-stop action and is feels very crisp and finely balanced. Thanks and well done everyone!

MAP08: Gateway I think this is a slight improvement over previous maps – the dark aesthetic is kind of alright, and when the straight corridors at the beginning open up there's actually a fairly intense fight. I was initially pleased to see the teleporting archvile section, but the fact that they teleport into places from which they can see you and you can't see them just feels like a cheap shot of the highest order. I was slightly surprised to see a cyberdemon as early as MAP08, although it didn't provide much challenge due to the amount of space and cells for the nearby plasma gun (what's this, ample ammo in a Vile Flesh map?!).

You don't like Dead Simple style maps? I love them, personally - actually Dead Simple is one of the few maps I like in Doom II, it may even be my favourite. The other night I played MAP07 of UAC Ultra for the first time and that may be favourite map in that style so far. That being said I'm willing to concede that one of the reasons I like those maps is that because I'm so poor at designing layouts, they're the only kind of maps I make well!

MAP07: Laboratory The first section of this level is actually OK, but the later section that leads up to acquiring the blue key is such a chore. Hit a switch, unleash a couple of monsters, rinse and repeat about twelve times – all while surrounded by that awful black and brown texture. I was amused by a couple of seemingly pointless powerups in the earlier section of the map – a rad suit to use in a nukage pit which is barely damaging and which you are hardly likely to fall into, and some goggles useful in just one dark area containing a solitary medkit (that I'm aware of).

MAP06: Secure Area Or “Switch Area”, as it should probably be known. For some reason, come MAP06 Williams has decided that switches are clearly the best thing ever and such an excellent way to make traversing simple parts of the map really frustrating. All the switch hunting and connecting hallways do at least create one satisfying moment when the yellow key suddenly becomes exposed. There is also an instance where hitting a switch seems to do nothing except open up an alcove containing two revenants – unless I'm mistaken it's just pure punishment without reward for hitting a switch, which I think is pretty mean to say the least. In roughly the same area I learned repeatedly that a hell knight can take you from 63% health to stone cold dead in one hit if you're constantly starved of armour – the kind of thing Williams wants us to feel repeatedly, apparently. The map really unravels in my eyes with the final areas, which comprise what I feel is a really bungled false exit. Not only does it use of the ugliest of an ugly bunch when it comes to default Doom textures, but it also involves an apparently invisible/hidden shotgun guy and a big pack of strong monsters with nowhere near enough ammo to drop them. Sadly, I think Vile Flesh is going from bad to worse here. I'm still hoping it picks up, though.

Thanks Tango! You're right, the ceiling definitely needs some work - I'll definitely play around with something like what you suggested.

I've been playing UAC Ultra, and just finished map 5. I love the texture set and the really well-judged difficulty so far - if it carries on at this level it'll probably be in my top 5 WADs.

MAP05: Outpost What begins with a refreshing glimpse of the great, sparsely-detailed outdoors ends with an extremely frustrating and cramped crate maze packed with hell knights and revenants. Between the two, the ambush in the blue room was entertaining enough but its pack of yet more chaingunners might have been a nightmare had I not located the rocket launcher secret. Speaking of secrets, these seem to get more and more esoteric as the maps go on – which is all the more frustrating given how essential they seem to be to survival. Trawling around empty maps searching for convoluted secrets in order to make sure you don't start the next instalment on 4% health just isn't fun. At least one of the secrets just seems a bit broken to me – I was eventually able to obtain a desperately-needed soulsphere in the crate maze by creeping around the edges of crates, but it's actually an adjacent crate stack I wouldn't know how to get to that is marked as secret. A pretty horrid map.

Here are a couple of shots of maps from a WAD I've been working on for a month or so. The WAD is going to consist of arena-style maps which are meant to be challenging, but not slaughter-level. Skillsaw is my favourite mapper which may be obvious from these shots (if only in texture choices, I guess). This map is titled Closed Circuit at the moment, it's likely to change. The view is from the spawn point, with -nomonsters. This shot is of the first map I ever finished and was happy with (after a lot of failed attempts) - it's called Midnight Mass, which makes sense given the slightly churchy feel, darkness and number of enemies. The "sky" is just black, but I'll likely change that to something decent when I can.

plums - thanks for the welcome. I'd never heard about that miscommunication before, despite having read Masters of Doom (but then again that book never really goes into enough depth about actual development). I actually can't really stand a lot of Doom II's maps, and really wish Romero and Shawn Green had designed more. MAP04: Mainframe After “Processing”, there had to be a “Mainframe”, right? I was surprised at how small this map is relative to the previous map, but applaud the efforts to make the design fit in with the title and theme. Again I found ammo to be extremely tight, to the extent that I had to punch the last monster to death (just an imp, mercifully) and then had to do a quick scout around for a secret, for which I was rewarded with a chaingun and a clip, I think. That's a thought – it seems that the reason Vile Flesh is so very scant in terms of munitions is that Williams uses clips and shotgun shells so frequently, and ammo boxes and shell boxes so rarely, at least so far. Unfortunately, I think the most memorable thing about this map is the particularly poor texture alignment, particularly on the black square walls throughout much of the map. If we're supposed to identify secrets using misalignment, well – there are a lot of red herrings.

Thanks for the welcome - I'm sure you're right about the changing expectations. I certainly don't have much experience of old WADs besides the IWADs to draw on. To be honest I don't really remember many instances of feeling particularly under the gun in the IWADs, although always playing continuously may have something to do with it. I'm definitely becoming pretty frustrated with Vile Flesh (I've actually played a little further and made notes as I've gone along - obviously I won't post my thoughts until the right dates come around) so I'm tempted to either take a step down from UV or do as plums is doing and try with a mod of some description.

So, this is not only my first go at the Megawad Club but also my first-ever Doomworld post. I've lurked for a little while and always liked the idea of these threads, so it was inevitable that I should dive in. I'll be playing Vile Flesh using GZDoom plus the Enhanced Edition of Per Kristian's improved animations and sounds. Continuous with frequent saves. MAP01: Administration It's obvious from this first map that Vile Flesh isn't ever going to be one of my favourite WADs but that's absolutely fine – it'll be an experience nonetheless. The main reasons are that I'm so very tired of the default textures and I'm a little intolerant of some basic mapping errors. That said, this is a pretty fun opening map which was slightly more challenging than I expected, what with the early appearance of a lot of shotgun guys. As SteveD pointed out there's a fairly horrid HOM at the yellow key in GZDoom but hopefully those won't crop up too often. I definitely like the music and wasn't able to find the second secret despite my best efforts (the one with a computer map in it, apparently). At this stage what worries me about this WAD is the whispers I hear of a lack of ammo and armour. I've never understood the point of trying to make players conserve ammo in Doom, it just doesn't seem to fit the game's concept to me – but we'll see. MAP02: Nuke Storage Erk, ammo and health are already becoming a fairly major issue here. I actually did a quick playthrough from a pistol start just to test and it's quite tricky, given the early chaingunner/shotgun guy ambush. I'm really not fond of the very high chaingunner to armour ratio, and the amount of work that needs doing just to get a measly green armour. Even on my standard playthrough I died several times to just a few monsters between the two main buildings, just because health and armour were in such short supply. Not a fan of this. MAP03: Processing There are definitely some elements I like about this map – the central hub concept, some of the lighting, and the genuinely surprising teleporting revenant trap. Why a processing centre requires a massive pool of nukage at its core is a bit of a mystery, but Gwyn Williams obviously wasn't going for a strictly realistic feel despite the somewhat workaday map titles he chose. The music is still consistently good, which I feel will be a given as the mapset goes on. As for negatives – well, the health and armour balance is still very poor in parts although at least there is a green armour in a reasonable position on this occasion. The growing numbers of chaingunners is a definite frustration, especially when they're sniping across huge chasms and hidden in pitch-black chambers. It encourages very cautious play, which I think could get tedious long before the final map comes around. I missed two secrets, but then I am pretty poor at finding those in general – something I need to improve on, for sure.