Krull

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TL;DW: not a bad map. You could definitely do a lot worse.

Firstly, it looks like your argument has shifted from "impossible in principle" to "unfun in principle". My original post didn't seek to address the latter, and anyway, it's not as if every map should aspire to be fun in the first place - maps like Nostril Caverns or World Orifice are unapologetic grindfests that people play for bragging rights, or just to laugh at the ridiculousness of it. I've tried to suggest subsequently, however, there might be room to make a half-decent map using the methods I've described. Again, I was originally arguing that the 1,000,000 monster map is technically feasible, with the caveat that they must be spawned in in small chunks. I never tried to suggest that "okuplok, only bigger" is the way to go about it, and actually, on rereading the first page it's clear the OP didn't have that in mind either: I don't know exactly what the OP was asking for, and I doubt he/she knows, so it's futile to assert that my proposal misses the point. FWIW, I think a map that uses space more efficiently than okuplok or cosmogenesis or whatever could still look epic. As for how it plays, that depends on the mapper's skill and ability to escalate things within the given limitations. Doom gives a lot of scope for transforming scenery, so even recycling the same 3-4 areas could be used creatively. Fights could be built around infighting with absurdly overpowered custom monsters like in Tarakannik, or the player could have a rapid-fire BFG, or they could have way more health, etc...the possibilities are endless.

You're just repeating yourself over and over again without actually addressing the points I've made in any substantive way. It shouldn't have more than 10,000 monsters active at once with the method I've described; if their death states all go to frame 0 then they won't even leave corpses....where's the problem? Why do you keep bringing it back to GZDoom? Everyone knows that port has issues with large slaughtermaps. Yeah, well that's his problem - it's clear the map would have to be more creative with space than this; it couldn't simply be a series of unconnected setpieces, but rather something more along the lines of Mutare, where it loops back on itself cleverly. You seem to be imagining something like NoReason's recent wad only 10+ times larger - obviously that won't work in the Doom engine, but it ought to be clear by now that that's no remotely what I have in mind.

You're moving the goalposts. First it was the monster count, which could be managed by the methods I described, now it's the linedef limit, even though you admit a boring nuts-style map would be feasible. There's no shortage of doom maps that cleverly recycle the same rooms to save space; of course a map with this many monsters would probably be a total grind one way or the other, but making it remotely playable is a creative problem, not a technical one. Unless you insisted on copying Sunder's mapping style I don't see why the map should even approach the limits of complexity, frankly.

Did you even read my post? Nowhere did I suggest running 1,000,000 monsters simultaneously. Rather, the suggestion was to use custom things whose sole purpose is to run the SPAWN command say, 50 times in a row, so you only need 20,000 of them on the map to generate the requisite number of monsters. This is already possible in regular MBF, but you would have greater flexibility with the extra frames and thing slots afforded by MBF 21, since you could have one for each type of monster.

You (and by you I mean @Captain POLAND) could just give the player infinite ammo if you don't want to place half a million cell packs on the map. As for corpses, wouldn't modifying the monster death animations so they all go to frame 0 solve this? Thanks to brutal Doom I think every monster has some kind of gib animation now, so it would be a case of making every monster gib by default, and modifying the animation so they appear to disintegrate into nothing. In principle, I think MBF 21 has enough scope to avoid having too many monsters active at once, without the need for scripting and, therefore, gzdoom's limitations on body counts. You would need to create many new things, that are not affected by physics, and that spawn X numbers of monsters when woken up by a gunshot. Place those things on conveyer belts outside the map so that everything they spawn is moved out of the way (so they can't spawn inside each other). The resulting army then teleports into the map. 100 fights of 10,000 each would be pretty doable I think, although it would still be a lot of work to make and wouldn't necessarily be more than a novelty to play. Also, I recommend you use this MIDI.

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