180 turn key [concern trolling derail]

[banjiepixel]

41 minutes ago, Keyboard_Doomer said:

I don't know when Heretic-N began but the corresponding rule there explicitly says "Various spinning utilities are allowed : for example, use Doom Mouse Spinner, Novert and Sens are allowed."

 

I get the feeling that back then speedrunning community was more open enhancing the experience with all kinds of small hacks. Actual vanilla .exe had many flaws and limitations. So many external hacks that would make the game better experience to speedrun without modifying the executable were allowed. It was probably the raising popularity of source ports and their various extra features that made speedrunning community to be more strict about using extra tools/features. And the raising purism as people started to forget how Doom was actually played before sourceports became popular.

 

7 minutes ago, dsda-dev said:

Like most speedrunning rules-related topics, this would just disable the feature while recording in strict mode. It would still work in normal gameplay and while recording demos not for submission to dsda.

 

Seems kinda gatekeepy decision to me. It is a feature with seemingly almost no practical downsides to the community and big upsides making other input methods outside of using mouse to be more competitive. And there seems to be historical basis to it not being a problem.

Edited March 19, 2023 by banjiepixel

[banjiepixel]

4 minutes ago, skogsto09 said:

The lack of this tool beeing used by the top players at the time, from the AdamH era should be an indication that it was outside of what would be accepted. 

 

Could just as well be indication of the tool not being very popular and top players just not finding it to be useful. It's is a tool that isn't really gamebreaking that comes with many disadvantages too. And most players would prefer to play casually, speedrun and deathmatch with the same control setup so if deathmatch community banned it, it would make also the Compet-N community to use the tool much less. We really would need to actually find evidence of the tool being seen as gamebreaking and harmful for the community before we can conclude it to have not been accepted by majority of the community.

[Ancalagon]

6 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

 

Could just as well be indication of the tool not being very popular and top players just not finding it to be useful.

I think any top player could see the tool as useful, there are many cases where the player has to turn around after taking keys, activating a linedef or pressing a switch, and this works even with sr40, after pressing turn180 you'll be facing the perfect angle to run back without having to lift your fingers from the movement keys. Specially for short runs this is obviously an advantage that would have been used widely if at any time it was considered as legit, knowing that turning 180 degrees gives an advantage is not a sudden realization 2022 runners had, the players just seem more willing to use any advantage that isn't explicitly banned in the rules.

[Shepardus]

11 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

It's is a tool that isn't really gamebreaking that comes with many disadvantages too.

What disadvantages are there?

[banjiepixel]

29 minutes ago, Ancalagon said:

I think any top player could see the tool as useful, there are many cases where the player has to turn around after taking keys, activating a linedef or pressing a switch, and this works even with sr40, after pressing turn180 you'll be facing the perfect angle to run back without having to lift your fingers from the movement keys.

 

23 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

What disadvantages are there?

 

It is a very unnatural turn so getting used to it is going to take too much work compared to actually just perfecting natural 180ish turn. You actually only gain real practical advantage if your control method doesn't allow making fast 180ish turns. Natural turning has always more control, that gives it huge advantage and is just simply more fun for the top players. Turn180 is very rarely used feature for a very good reason in any context when mouse is being used.

[Shepardus]

3 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

 

 

It is a very unnatural turn so getting used to it is going to take too much work compared to actually just perfecting natural 180ish turn. You actually only gain real practical advantage if your control method doesn't allow making fast 180ish turns. Natural turning has always more control, that gives it huge advantage and is just simply more fun for the top players. Turn180 is very rarely used feature for a very good reason in any context when mouse is being used.

None of this is remotely true, but I didn't expect anything more from someone whose first words in this thread were "not a speedrunner."

[banjiepixel]

1 hour ago, Andy Johnsen said:

Most runners probably don't want to remove skill based precise turns in favor of automated turns. We'll see if this claim holds up better than the lack of factual conversations from back in the day. :} Historical context aside, the road forward is the current generations to decide. My opinion is quite obvious, and I think there's good arguments from a purist point of view still. 

 

Turn180 doesn't remove precise manual turns from the game, it's just another way to make turns and basically because it is a extra mechanic, there is also extra cognitive cost to switching between normal fast turns and Turn180 turns. Only actually backed up reason for banning Turn180 seems to be strict unjustified purism. Turn180 is a feature that has basically zero proven practical negative effects to the speedrunning while it also has potentially several very positive effects to the speedrunning. And how playing with Turn180 is actually any different from playing with vertical mouse movement turned off, using autorun or using HD resolutions/widescreen? For a pretty heavily purist focused community, list of allowed non-vanilla features seems actually pretty arbitrary.

 

I get the feeling that speedrunning community here just wants to gatekeep. no separate categories for keyboard/gamepad play where Turn180 would actually be useful but also no Turn180 allowed in the main categories where it would basically just allow keyboard and gamepad players to actually compete against mouse users. Not everyone can play with mouse for reason or another and simple QoL feature like Turn180 doesn't break mouse play but does make the game much more playable with keyboard or gamepad.

 

I dare DSDA community to open Turn180 category and people to see how it isn't a feature that would ruin Doom speedrunning. This would also work as a evidence on how Compet-N community actually saw 180 spinning utilities.

[Andrea Rovenski]

2 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

I dare DSDA community to open Turn180 category and people to see how it isn't a feature that would ruin Doom speedrunning. This would also work as a evidence on how Compet-N community actually saw 180 spinning utilities.

turn180, as it shows, was allowed and used from 2004 until yesterday. Barely anyone even used it. The most notable players who used it support a removal of the feature. Please stop posting in the forum without knowing basic stuff about what we do and talking down to us, it's not fair or cool. 

[banjiepixel]

1 minute ago, Andy Johnsen said:

I stand by the claim that using a tool to assist turning in a run means it's tool-assisted. The question is more if you think such a tool assist should be allowed, I personally do not - but my opinion on that is not more than just another opinion.

 

Tell me then, how disabling vertical movement or using autorun don't make the run tool-assisted too? You also gain extra advantage that originally didn't exist by using HD resolution and widescreen. Oh, and that optical mouse you are using is probably much more accurate than anything used back in the day. Pretty much everybody using some kind of tools enhance the experience beyond the original Doom.exe by using standard source port features. Disabling vertical mouse movement or using autorun alters the mechanics of playing the game actually pretty radically and Turn180 key isn't that much different from that.

 

As the practical negative effects of allowing Turn180 seem to be largely unknown, we have no actual data to support banning it. Opinions of the community members are important but without actual data and factually supported discussion the rules remain very arbitrary and have no actual basis on what's best for the game and community.

 

Do we even know the first sourceport that had Turn180 as a feature? Or what other "tool" features it did or didn't have at the time?

 

I am seeing alot of "feelings over facts" behaviour from people like you. Turn180 and possibly allowing it seems to be just a taboo to you without anything solid to back it up. I am not speedrunner but maybe that's why my viewpoint to this issue is more rational.

[Maribo]

13 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

Seems kinda gatekeepy decision to me. It is a feature with seemingly almost no practical downsides to the community and big upsides making other input methods outside of using mouse to be more competitive. And there seems to be historical basis to it not being a problem.

55 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

I am seeing alot of "feelings over facts" behaviour from people like you. Turn180 and possibly allowing it seems to be just a taboo to you without anything solid to back it up. I am not speedrunner but maybe that's why my viewpoint to this issue is more rational.

2 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

I get the feeling that speedrunning community here just wants to gatekeep. no separate categories for keyboard/gamepad play where Turn180 would actually be useful but also no Turn180 allowed in the main categories where it would basically just allow keyboard and gamepad players to actually compete against mouse users. Not everyone can play with mouse for reason or another and simple QoL feature like Turn180 doesn't break mouse play but does make the game much more playable with keyboard or gamepad.

Please knock off the concern trolling with this idea that you have a more rational view of what constitutes a TAS input even though you don't run or TAS this game, at least to my knowledge. As for separate categories, there was another thread two weeks ago about a similar subject, and the deal with it is that it would be painfully unnecessary bloat. There is an extreme minority of controller and keyboard players, making separate categories just for them would butcher whole DSDA pages and shovel them off into a weird valley, and I honestly think it would be insulting to people like TVK, Revved, SAV, etc. since they're all keyboarders and have produced some of the coolest demos on the archive.

[banjiepixel]

4 minutes ago, Andy Johnsen said:

You lost me at "people like you" or else I'd take the time to respond, because there's an interesting discussion to be had as to where one should draw a line and why. I think I'll rather have that conversation with someone less prone to attempt insults. Have a nice day :}

 

It wasn't attempt at insulting you or other people on "your side" of this issue. English isn't my first language so sometimes I don't know the right words to use, it was meant to be pretty neutral way just mentioning that people giving "anti-Turn180" arguments here in this topic don't actually seem to have very good arguments to support their views.

 

If I would be in bad faith, I could accuse you of trying shut down discussion with me simply using something that you could claim to be a attempted insult but let's try to keep things in good faith in here.

 

I have seen many competitive communities doing many stupid bans for very stupid reasons. In my opinion that is what Compet-N didn't do and instead probably just community discouraged Turn180 use and in my opinion DSDA community is doing the exact opposite. Banning something without proper research on it's negative effects for community. Turn180 seems to clearly one those original "extra tools" used in back in the day along with novert and others so it probably shouldn't be banned only if is actual data to back that decision.

 

3 minutes ago, Maribo said:

Please knock off the concern trolling with this idea that you have a more rational view of what constitutes a TAS input even though you don't run or TAS this game, at least to my knowledge.

 

But how I am actually wrong?

 

4 minutes ago, Maribo said:

There is an extreme minority of controller and keyboard players, making separate categories just for them would butcher whole DSDA pages and shovel them off into a weird valley

 

So nobody cares about the minorities? I do understand some practical issues that would come from that. I do feel like that DSDA categories are very uncreative and serve only very limited range of gameplay styles.

 

14 minutes ago, Maribo said:

 I honestly think it would be insulting to people like TVK, Revved, SAV, etc. since they're all keyboarders and have produced some of the coolest demos on the archive.

 

I do not actually see anything insulting in this. It wouldn't invalidate any of the coolness of those demos.

[banjiepixel]

6 minutes ago, Looper said:

I am sorry but who are you exactly? I don't think I've seen you ever engage with speedrunning or send any demos.

 

Should technically be irrelevant. Doesn't invalidate things I have said on it's own.

 

6 minutes ago, Looper said:

This sentence alone is one of the biggest bullshit statements I've seen in many years. I don't mean to be rude, but the sentence just blew my mind how uneducated it is.

I am hoping to see something related Turn180 being actual practical problems for the speedrunning community. It is to theorycraft Turn180 to seem like something problematic there is no actual data of it being actually in more common use. There must be real practical reasons why most people do not use it, especially many top players and atleast for me to it would make sense that Turn180 would in the end increase cognitive costs more than you would gain by the automated turns.

 

If I make any statements like that, it is meant to be a claim based on how I see a thing to be. If I am wrong, I welcome anyone to educate me and other people in the topic by explaining how I am being wrong.

 

6 minutes ago, Looper said:

 It is just that you are super clueless, and doing harm to the thread by derailing it a shitton. I will read your reply, if you have one, but I won't reply to you anymore to avoid further derailing. And please understand, I don't try to be mean.

 

I have tried to be as little derailing as possible. Again, my focus is on actual practical issues related to allowing Turn180, something that has relevance on both it's status during the Compet-N community days and on how modern DSDA community could have similar or different views on this matter. It do not see how it is derailing to actually attempt deeper discussion about the topic. I do get the feeling that some anti-Turn180 people do not want deeper discussion just simply because they see Turn180 as taboo for some irrational reason.

[banjiepixel]

1 hour ago, skogsto09 said:

The general ruling principle is laid down when restricting the recording of demos for compet-n under the official doom . exes only. 
Would it then be reasonable to assume that installing 3rd party drivers performing assisted turning alongside of that? I don`t think so. 
You can understand that by looking at the lack of demos using such tools. 

 

So 3rd party tools like NOVERT were not being used back then? Controller mods and macros have been always controversial issue in competitive gaming but often allowed if the actual effect on meta is very small and overshadowed by the positive effects, like allowing keyboard only play be more competitive. Unless assisted 180 turns were dominating the leaderboards, it's hard to see any solid reason for banning it. It does seem like it was just more of a taboo at some times.

 

1 hour ago, skogsto09 said:

The ruleset were not designed to stand the test of time for the coming 20 years when they were put down. I gave my own example of having a demo invalidated because I used
"iddt" to spy on enemies. Where it covered by the rules? no...where it invalidated yes. Was there a big discussion around it, no. 
Thats a feature which is a part of the original 1.9 .exe, no source-ports or 3rd party software needed. 
With that in mind, you really think you would be able to freely use 180 flip turns in demos and be given the thumbs up? 

 

That is still very weak argument because it should be so obvious that cheats built in the game are not allowed to be used outside of what is actually needed to record a legit demo. 3rd party software is always more gray area because of difficulties separating between hardware and software hacks that do not touch the Doom exe. There is no practical difference what comes to speedrunning between using 3rd party software to draw crosshair to the screen and physically drawing a crosshair on your monitor with a marker.

 

There are many unwritten rules in competitive communities but literal cheat codes programmed in to the game are much more clearly off limits than using 3rd party software that gives some minor help with inputs. It's not impossible to make perfect 180 turns in the game anyway just like it's not impossible to use mouse so perfectly horizontally that there is zero vertical mouse movement.

Edited March 19, 2023 by banjiepixel

[banjiepixel]

57 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

All of banjiepixel's arguments in this thread (including the derail Maribo split) seem to be just declaring things as "obvious" or right/wrong purely based on their own aesthetic preferences / intuition, with no familiarity whatsoever w/ Doom speedrunning, its history, etc. The "It is a very unnatural turn so getting used to it is going to take too much work compared to actually just perfecting natural 180ish turn" comment is especially glaring. Have read many combined reports and complaints and I'm inclined to agree w/ them. 

 

banjiepixel, don't post in this thread again.

 

My claims about all that natural and unnatural turning were over the line. I lost focus and I apologize for that. But haven't I also been asking about things for context and questioned things that atleast to me seem to based on more recent views of the community than how the community actually was back in the day? I have tried bring up the question about what makes Turn180 so radically different from other classic hacks that are totally allowed these days and as far as I know, many of those were also allowed back in the day too but feel that all that was just completely ignored. I have been also asking about any evidence of Turn180 being bad for the "meta" now or back then and that seems to have been also ignored.

 

Also I am pretty sure that the only thing I have declared to be obvious is the fact that actual cheat codes are not allowed in competitive gaming. I could be wrong but atleast personally I don't know any competitive games that use it as part of the meta. You generally don't need write in to the rules that you can't use the god mode cheat. It is usually the opposite, if a cheat code is allowed, then there is a mention of it in the rules.

 

Doom speedrunning doesn't exist in vacuum and there are alot of common things it has with many other competitive game communities. And that is my perspective to all this.