More Tricks and Traps Than You Require - Updated to v2.13a

[Stabbey]

More Tricks and Traps Than You Require (Map08 replacement for Doom II).

 

Thanks to everyone for their feedback and playthroughs, it has helped improve the level tremendously. I do not believe any more major changes are required. After taking a break, I thought about this map a bit more and I decided that there were some things I wasn't satisfied with. I may eventually change this from the MAP08 slot to the MAP13 slot.

 

The three major changes I made (among others):

• Revamped the Rocket Launcher secret in Section 7 so that it no longer offers a safe cubbyhole to hide from, thus making the combat less boring.
• Removed the entire Tekgreen room from the northern axis of the map. That room was insufficiently tricky for my taste, it was far too straightforward. Additionally, that encounter was another long section of an already lengthy part of the map. Cutting it and replacing it with something simpler slightly improves the pacing.
• When I came up with the idea of the western area of the map, I had a secret area in mind, but I decided against putting it in place when I build the map. I changed my mind and put it back in.

 

Update (02/09/2024):

- I've made a couple small tweaks to the platforming room.

 

The full changelog for v2.13a is below.

 

I'm looking for feedback specifically on what traps you thought worked the best, were there any moments you found funny, any moments you found frustrating or irritating, any balance problems, and any pacing problems.
 

Latest Version

 

https://www.doomworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=285540

 

Change Log

 

Version 2.13a
- Increased the size of an additional platform in Section 2 to make the platforming easier.
- Increased the brightness in the platforming room from 140 to 160.

 

Version 2.13
- Slightly increased the height of a blocking wall.
- Added barricades to temporarily restrict access to a certain weapon
- Made a certain powerup easier to find.
- Made a lift slightly more obvious.

 

Version 2.12
- Added a new secret vault
- Corrected an oversight where the map did not have a sufficient quantity of blue skull keys.
- Removed Tekgreen section for being insufficiently tricksy/trappy, and for map pacing purposes. More than 50 enemies were cut from the map from that change.
- Replaced the Tekgreen section with a new, much smaller part which is shorter, but still tricky.
- Changed the Rocket Launcher secret in section 7 to make the combat more challenging.
- Changed location and activation method of Keen Secret 2.
- Improved deployment of Imp moat teleporter pen.
- Switches in red key room now properly re-adjust to maximum brightness if the lights get restored.
- Moved Rocket Launcher in Arachno/PE/Rev/Manc Arena to perpetual lift, moved shell box elsewhere, added additional rocket ammo.
- Cleaned up some unused triggers and incorrect tags in sectors.
- Fixed an incorrect texture on the raising stairs.
- Adjusted Par Time to 15 minutes.

 

Version 2.11
- Added some additional decoy blue keys.
- Added custom music track "Always Watching" by Lippeth (revised version).
- Removed hexagonal skylights (they looked odd), and changed look of ceilings instead.
- Removed a lot of excess cells.
- Reduced amount of rockets in Blue Key Palace arena to improve tension of boss battle.
- Added a light to highlight the Berserk pack at the start of the maze.
- Slightly improved visuals in Blue Key Palace arena. (Added decorative windows to brown building.)
- Tweaked a certain linedef to make sure the player's center will pass through it.
- Added a teleporter line to an area which should be inaccessible in case of an extremely unlikely fluke.
- Changed a certain ceiling's height in a location where the ceiling texture changes.
- Tweaked visuals in caged imp room.
- Bugfix: Changed a wall texture accidentally applied to a floor in an inaccessible sector.

 

 

Version 2.10
- Jumping and Crouching is now prohibited.
- Map now has full proper title.
- Added additional room to Sector 3 (had an additional idea).
- Changed geography of Sector 3 secret.
- Moved location where Sector 3 secret is unlocked. New location is no longer flagged as secret.
- Removed monster blocking line from sector 3, replaced with lowered floor
- Removed monster blocking line from entrance to sector 3, monsters now teleport away upon entering.
- Bridge over water now has proper flat texture in raised position.

 

 

Version 2.09
- Bugfix: Removed redundant autosave line.
- Bugfix: Shifted some enemies in monster closets to unstick Pinkies from v2.08.Oops.
- Added monster blocking lines to certain lifts to prevent enemies from getting on or off.
- Tweaked appearance of window ledge in starting room.
- Added additional Cacodemon closets when acquiring Yellow Skull.
- Added a semi-hidden teleport back to a certain arena for convenience.
- Added rooms on opposite side of Hedge maze overlook for decorative purposes.
- Improved some texture work.

 

Version 2.08
- Bugfix: Re-added missing teleporter destination accidentally deleted from previous patch.
- Added an additional connecting section in the maze for better flow
- Added texture variations in maze for signposting... although it's so dark that it really doesn't show much difference.
- General improvements to texture alignment in maze.
- Replaced blue armor in Blue Key Palace arena with green armor on Ultra-violence difficulty.
- Added one (1) rocket to Blue Key Palace arena.
- Made Red Key Room inset door switch not appear on automap.
- Added rockets on top of certain hedges to guide players.
- The dirt walls in the Megasphere area are no longer perfectly straight lines.
- Better signposting/hints for Keen 1 secret.
- Switched contents of two monster closets.
- Added two additional "Pinky" demons to a monster closet.
- Increased width of Megasphere platform so it's not a forced pickup.
- A certain monster closet which releases its contents gradually now, under certain circumstances, releases its monsters to a different location.
- A certain arena fight now releases the monsters faster, for a better pace.
- Changed ammo balance in a certain arena. (More rockets, fewer bullets and shells.)

- More tweaks to windows in eyes hallway.

 

Version 2.07
- Made the maze more interesting upon first trip through.
- Made the maze really, really interesting on the return trip.
- Maze has been made slightly darker.
- Changed textures of certain elements in the maze
- Added Berserk Pack to start of maze.
- Added a new connection to the maze for better flow.
- Added a pile of shells, and some additional stimpacks and medkits.
- Added an additional secret Super Shotgun.
- Added additional teleport lines to move Mancubi around better.
- Changed geography to allow for better Mancubi movement.
- Tweaked skylight triggers
- Added an additional visual cue to a tricky bit of mandatory progression.
- Added arrow to Red Key room to help players not get stuck after finishing.
- Added additional button to red key room to release players
- Slightly reduced amount of health and armor in certain spots.
- Moved autosave line from Tekgreen room to outside it. Added two additional autosave lines.
- Made the existence of backpack secret clear.
- Added rubble blocking an unusable door.
- Reduced amount of health inside Blue Key Palace to slightly increase fight difficulty.
- Adjusted window textures in the "watching eyes" hallway.

 

Version 2.06
- Reworked the trick in the Red Key room.
- Removed empty sections in megasphere area and rotated room 180 degrees to simplify area
- Removed three "W1 autosave" lines.
- Reworked the NOPE.
- Trimmed one small part off the maze.
- Assorted texturing improvements
- Keen indicators no longer show a bit of red after being turned "on".
- Added big blinking arrow to point players to window in start room.
- Added monster-only teleport lines to a certain place.
- Altered some sector heights where floor textures change.

 

Version 2.05
- Bugfix: Removed unmarked switch line used for debug purposes and accidentally left in place.
- Removed Super Shotgun, Plasma Rifle and cells from Blue Key Palace arena and replaced with rockets
- Lowered monster count in Blue Key Palace arena and reduced delay of access to stair switch by 30 seconds.
- Moved Berserk Pack to lower arena
- Added Medikits to arena top on far side
- Moved 40 armor bonuses on far side of blue arena
- Changed some rockets to rocket boxes in Blue Key Palace
- Removed Blur sphere in Blue Key Palace.
- Added two stimpaks to Blue Key Palace.
- Put cell charge packs near BFG onto raising columns which lower once BFG acquired
- Bug Fix: Added missing impassible lines to near some blue keys.
- Changed Rocket Launcher lift in surprise arena to lower the entire platform from any side.
- Moved certain blue keys back farther from impassible line.
- Added impassible line to discourage attempting to explore a tiny ledge which is useless
- Removed Yellow key indicators from a certain door.
- Changed Certain doors to red-key required
- Added a sound sector to indicate the direction of a secret door opening.
- Changed Keen numbers to appear on automap if located.
- Simplified exit of false wall area.
- Removed "Monster can't cross line" from blue key palace hub door.

 

Version 2.04
- Made a certain Arch-Vile trap more threatening
- Adjusted lighting of Blue Key.

 

 

Version 2.03
- Added teleport lines to move half the Mancubi from the Sladwall trap to a monster closet for later.
- Removed one switch from the fake wall area and made the lift switch easier to see.
- Moved the quiet area sectors closer to the rest of the map to make the automap maximum size smaller.
- Added corpses to the quiet area.
- Removed "Does not appear on Automap" tag from all the lines in the maze.
- Added "Does not appear on Automap" tag to room at the end of the maze.
- Added W1 Autosave line to room at the end of the maze.
- Adjusted and simplified the Keen 3 secret to make it not require entering a separate section.
- Items on north stairs are now all in a nice neat line.
- Changed a texture to make a hidden switch playtesters keep missing more obvious.

 

Version 2.02
- Joined some sectors for better sound propagation
- Moved the second trigger for the Section 1 secret sector
- Adjusted some vertexes to prevent a keygrab through a wall.

 

Version 2.01
- Altered the Pain Elemental/Mancubus/Revenant Arena.
-- Added a Rocket Launcher and rockets
-- Switched which sector was the secret sector
-- Moved the switch for the secret sector and added a second trigger for it.
- Added another autosave line before the arena for less frustration

 

Version 2.00

- Excised most of the northern section from the map into a separate map.
- Reworked northern section to simplify gameplay and reduce steps needed to complete.
- Changed nature of surprise Arch-vile corpse
- Altered nature of another Arch-Vile surprise to make it more interesting and challenging.

 

Version 1.02 (Beta03)

- Fixed another instance of using a flat as a wall texture.
- Fixed some misaligned textures.

 

Version 1.01 (Beta02)
- Fixed an accidental instance of using a flat as a wall texture.
- Changed a texture on a lowering floor to better match the wall.

 

 

Quote

It turns out that the fortified zone was more than just Dead Simple. Two possible exits, each requiring three keys, but one has an added wrinkle. Explore the seven other sections branching from the central octagon in search of the keys, but be wary, as not everything is as it appears. The hellspawn have saved many of their most devious traps for here. Where the brute force of Dead Simple may have failed, here they hope to stop your progress through guile and deception.

 

- Requires GZDoom or other limit-removing ports. Tested with GZDoom, partially tested with PRBoom+, but seems to have some issues which need working out with that port. EDIT: The version currently linked has fixed two places which have problems with PRBoom+, but I haven't entirely ruled out there being more places at this time.

- Not tested with any mods.

- Version 1.03 and earlier are not compatible with the Hellrider mod. Version 2.00 MIGHT be compatible, as the thing causing problems has been changed... but I haven't tested it with mods yet.

- Freelook is allowed and encouraged, but it shouldn't be needed.

- Jumping and Crouching is not required and not allowed (although I have tried to make sure it's not possible to sequence-break even using jumping).

- I have not tested it with co-op, but I have added in parts to let co-op get players into any areas which get temporarily locked off.

- For use with the Doom II IWAD, replaces MAP 08

- It's a fairly long map, probably about 30 to 40 minutes for full completion.

- Minimum completion, as fast as possible, is probably on the order of 10-15 minutes, but that's if you know the map. After one attempt my time was 13:07.

- Don't feel the need to run the entire map at once, there are many natural stopping points to take a break.

- The gameplay theme is, well, "Tricks and Traps", although one section is somewhat like a slaughtermap. The design theme is "malevolent techbase".

- The difficulty, at its peak, should be about as hard as Plutonia 1 on Ultra-Violence.

- Map difficulties are implemented, but I can't be a good judge of them since I play on UV and of course, know the map.

 

Screenshots:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NEW Version:

 

 

https://www.doomworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=285540

 

Version 2.13a
- Increased the size of an additional platform in Section 2 to make the platforming easier.
- Increased the brightness in the platforming room from 140 to 160.

 

Version 2.13
- Slightly increased the height of a blocking wall.
- Added barricades to temporarily restrict access to a certain weapon
- Made a certain powerup easier to find.
- Made a lift slightly more obvious.

MoreTricks-v213.zip

Edited February 9 by Stabbey : Added Version 2.13

[Biodegradable]

Does this require the latest version of GZDoom? I'm still using v4.3.3 and it crashes on me once I enter the first room.

[Stabbey]

Hmmm... I haven't actually updated the one I'm using in some time. I know that there's too many visplanes in the first room, but that shouldn't normally be a problem.

 

... I just checked it out using version 4.4.2, no crash in the first room, no crash in the really big room. I'll see if I can find this big crash somewhere using 4.4.2, but so far nothing. It didn't crash anywhere using version 3.6.0, I know that at least.

 

EDIT: I did say "Beta" in the OP because there could possibly be problems I didn't see myself.

[Biodegradable]

I updated my GZDoom, but still ran into the same issue. Here it is from my footage:

 

 

 

[Stabbey]

It isn't crashing there in 3.6.0 or 4.4.2, but I know what that line does and I have a guess at what the problem might be, so I'll try and fix it.

 

What mod is that you're running, by the way? I didn't test my map using any gameplay mods. Is that just sound/graphics?

Edited August 15, 2020 by Stabbey : what mod?

[Biodegradable]

So, I figured the mod I was using might've been the culprit, but I wanted to test to see if it happened regardless of a mod or not so we could both pin down the issue a little better. Here are my findings:

 

 

I don't necessarily think this is absolutely conclusive, but Hellrider seems to be what was causing the issue for me at least. Mind you, I don't know if this would happen with other mods or not. I hope you found this helpful.

[Stabbey]

Does Hellrider modify how explosions work? Because there was a big explosion (elsewhere, not there) after crossing that line. That particular one was from much an older way I was doing big explosions, though. I have since changed that, and if I can get the new way I do them working for this instance, I will change it.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Stabbey : The explosion was elsewhere, not visible to player

[Biodegradable]

Hellrider does have its own explosion sprites, yeah. But it's not a great alteration or anything. Mind you, I noticed in both unmodded and with Zagemod, there's no explosion. The ArchVile just shows up gibbed without any explosion.

[Stabbey]

I just meant that there's an explosion elsewhere. It's normal for it to show up there without an explosion.

[Biodegradable]

Not that I could see, man. As you can tell from my recording, it freezes just before the ArchVile's corpse spawns in.

[KevvyLava]

This level is too long for my taste.  There are some really cool things going on, though.

[Stabbey]

1 hour ago, Biodegradable said:

Not that I could see, man. As you can tell from my recording, it freezes just before the ArchVile's corpse spawns in.

 

To be completely clear about what I meant:

Spoiler

There's a crusher elsewhere which explodes some barrels, flinging the Arch-Vile's corpse through a silent teleporter line. That part has a lot of barrels stacked on top of each other, which is likely the cause of the glitch.

 

 

1 hour ago, KevvyLava said:

This level is too long for my taste.  There are some really cool things going on, though.

 

I understand. Long maps aren't for everyone. Technically, my best time for bare minimum completion is 18:58, and that could probably be improved (I am not a speed-runner), but I know all the maps tricks.

[Biodegradable]

1 minute ago, Stabbey said:

There's a crusher elsewhere which explodes some barrels, flinging the Arch-Vile's corpse through a silent teleporter line. That part has a lot of barrels stacked on top of each other, which is likely the cause of the glitch.

 

Yeah, that's probably it then.

[KevvyLava]

5 hours ago, Stabbey said:

 

To be completely clear about what I meant:

  Reveal hidden contents

There's a crusher elsewhere which explodes some barrels, flinging the Arch-Vile's corpse through a silent teleporter line. That part has a lot of barrels stacked on top of each other, which is likely the cause of the glitch.

 

 

 

I understand. Long maps aren't for everyone. Technically, my best time for bare minimum completion is 18:58, and that could probably be improved (I am not a speed-runner), but I know all the maps tricks.

It's well-made for sure.  Just feels like it'll never end and then it got to the part with the big room that resembles the beginning of E1M3....thne those HUGE adjacent rooms, and it was like ....eh.  More of the same.  Could just cut those parts out entirely to shorten the map, unless you're married to them.

[Stabbey]

44 minutes ago, KevvyLava said:

It's well-made for sure.  Just feels like it'll never end and then it got to the part with the big room that resembles the beginning of E1M3....thne those HUGE adjacent rooms, and it was like ....eh.  More of the same.  Could just cut those parts out entirely to shorten the map, unless you're married to them.

 

Do you mean the poison pit room with the big straight bridge, after the vista with the megasphere? Okay, that's good feedback, because I want to find the right balance for proper tension in that area.

 

If you meant the room up north with the balconies but no poison, with three large rooms with staircases on the west, east and south sides, I have a very specific reason why they are there and I do need those.

 

***

 

I also do have some concerns with the four-part north-western arena area, which may be dragging on a little long, and the north-western quadrant of that arena, which might be too difficult. I could be persuaded into cutting two of the rooms and then restructuring the whole area.

 

[Doomkid]

Gonna take a look under the hood later and see if there’s anything crashy going on or if the mod Bio is using is solely to blame. I dig the look of those screenshots!

[Stabbey]

As I said, this is a beta version, not the final release. I am open to changes, including a complete re-vamp of the level structure. I could delete some sections and completely re-arrange others, and either alter or completely remove the special "Keen" gimmick (or at least conceal it). But I would need feedback to decide on the changes.

 

Many of the sections off the octagon are minor and could be cut, but the biggest factor in length is the northern section. There's a case to be made there to cut that part out entirely into its own separate level. After that, the level would be significantly smaller. I'd still need to replace it with something, but both maps would be distinctly shorter. ... Yeah, yeah, I see how I could take that northern part and make it into Map 05... tweak the appearance, change some stuff up to get a consistent theme going... that could work.

 

I could do that, but I'm flying a little blind here.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Stabbey

[KevvyLava]

6 hours ago, Stabbey said:

As I said, this is a beta version, not the final release. I am open to changes, including a complete re-vamp of the level structure. I could delete some sections and completely re-arrange others, and either alter or completely remove the special "Keen" gimmick (or at least conceal it). But I would need feedback to decide on the changes.

 

Many of the sections off the octagon are minor and could be cut, but the biggest factor in length is the northern section. There's a case to be made there to cut that part out entirely into its own separate level. After that, the level would be significantly smaller. I'd still need to replace it with something, but both maps would be distinctly shorter.

 

I could do that, but I'm flying a little blind here.

 

I just think the whole level is too long.  All of the parts I saw were good.  But you could shrink the thing down to half size and achieve the same experience without these massive rooms of 200 monsters.  It just feels like the thing will never end.

[Stabbey]

Just now, KevvyLava said:

 

I just think the whole level is too long.  All of the parts I saw were good.  But you could shrink the thing down to half size and achieve the same experience without these massive rooms of 200 monsters.  It just feels like the thing will never end.

 

Technically, I have only one room of 200 monsters, and the reason that I have so many is specifically to drain the player of ammo for their heavy weapons. Almost every other encounter is small in size.

 

But yes, I probably could cut the level in half.The culprit is the northern area, and I'm already starting work to move almost all of that section into its own level, which will cut the monster count by about half, and drastically cut the completion time. The next version I post (which will probably take a day or two at least) will be quite different.

 

- Of the parts you saw, can I ask you which parts you thought worked the best, and which parts worked the least?

- Did the hallway of "blinking eyes" set the mood?

- If you reached the "Blurena", was any of that fun or was it just frustrating (especially the NW quadrant, which likely won't survive the map change)?

[KevvyLava]

Blinking eyes was cool.  But I'd put them farther away and see if that makes it seem spookier.

 

When I say "too big" I mean linedefs that could be 64 instead of 128 or 256.  Like, scaled down, not just eliminating things.

 

The big arena room with wave after wave of enemies could have halve the enemies and achieve the same experience.  I liked the traps smaller rooms. It's just the big sprawling areas that got boring.

[Stabbey]

I decided that much of the northern area was so long that it could work better as its own level (and some parts weren't the best fit for Tricks and Traps). I cut out most of it, and re-attached the remaining parts together. This has cut almost 200 monsters from the map and cut the completion time drastically. Full completion is under 40 minutes, and my attempt at a minimum completion speed-run was just about 13 minutes.

 

I'm still working on tweaking the changes and testing them, but I have some new images.

 

 

 

 

On 8/15/2020 at 10:28 PM, Doomkid said:

Gonna take a look under the hood later and see if there’s anything crashy going on or if the mod Bio is using is solely to blame. I dig the look of those screenshots!

 

I don't know if you had time to play with that or not, but I may cut that section which crashed. It was so finicky to get working at all, and simply moving some sectors around made it stop working properly. I'll try and give it another attempt to get it working, but if I can't, I'll leave it cut.

 

EDIT: I changed how I was doing it and got it working. I think. It no longer has the tons of barrels stacked directly on top of each other, which might help with the crash scenario.

 

10 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

Blinking eyes was cool.  But I'd put them farther away and see if that makes it seem spookier.

 

When I say "too big" I mean linedefs that could be 64 instead of 128 or 256.  Like, scaled down, not just eliminating things.

 

The big arena room with wave after wave of enemies could have halve the enemies and achieve the same experience.  I liked the traps smaller rooms. It's just the big sprawling areas that got boring.

 

I could move the eyes back 64 units to start, any more and I'll need to adjust some architecture. I could do that, but it would be a bit of a pain because that would affect more than one area.

I thought players liked having room to dodge and maneuver. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by scaling things down, and that's a vague statement. It doesn't give me a sense of what you consider the problem areas. Even if I were to do cut the size of "some linedefs" in half, it would change how the level plays so much that it would be faster to scrap the entire thing and remake it. That is a lot more work than I'm inclined to do that just based on feedback from one person.

Actually, halving the enemies will NOT achieve the same experience.

• I want the fight to deplete the player's heavy weapon ammo. Half the enemies means half the ammunition spent.
• With half the enemies, that increases the chance that the players will switch to the double-barrel shotgun instead of using the heavy weapons like I want them to.
• If I cut the enemies, to achieve the effect I want, I'd probably also have to cut the plasma rifle and/or BFG from the map, and probably just redesign the entire thing. Cutting the guns doesn't make sense either because those doing continuous play (eventually) will have those guns anyway.

 

EDIT: ...Actually, maybe I should make a test branch to explore what happens if I get rid of most of the cell ammo in the big fight and replaced it with rocket ammo.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Stabbey : maybe changing weapon configuration

[Stabbey]

I've uploaded a new version, 2.01.

 

 

 

 

Bullet points:

- Most of the northern section of the map has been removed to become a separate map.

- The remaining parts have been stitched together and given some new tweaks.

- This cuts at least 20 minutes off of the time for full completion. A speed run could do it in under 15 minutes for someone who knows the map.

- The part which was giving the Hellrider mod problems has been removed and changed. I don't know if that will fix the crash, but it might help.

- Rocket Launcher and ammo added to an arena fight with tough monsters.

 

I'm looking for feedback specifically on what traps you thought worked the best, were there any moments you found funny, any moments you found frustrating or irritating, any balance problems, and any pacing problems.

 

Note: Depending on the port, you might see a HoM effect in a "window". In GZDoom, it's fine.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Stabbey : removed outdated links

[Biodegradable]

1 hour ago, Stabbey said:

The part which was giving the Hellrider mod problems has been removed and changed. I don't know if that will fix the crash, but it might help.

 

I'll test it out for you tomorrow.

[Caleb13]

Very nice reimaging, some of these new traps were really clever! I pathetically died in the (probably) easiest one with the 2-way walls (around sector 1071), that really surprised me, heh. Anyway, I run into two issues:

 

-I entered the fatso/revenant/pain arena (sector 241) only with shotgun and chaingun, so it took forever to clear out. It wasn't hard, just tedious. Maybe you could give the player some stronger weapon there.

 

-There is door marked with yellow skulls (sector 1513), but you actually don't need the key to open it.

 

-And... it's not an issue per se, but the BFG is pretty much useless by the time you get two keys to get it.

[Stabbey]

2 minutes ago, Caleb13 said:

Very nice reimaging, some of these new traps were really clever! I pathetically died in the (probably) easiest one with the 2-way walls (around sector 1071), that really surprised me, heh. Anyway, I run into two issues:

 

-I entered the fatso/revenant/pain arena (sector 241) only with shotgun and chaingun, so it took forever to clear out. It wasn't hard, just tedious. Maybe you could give the player some stronger weapon there.

 

-There is door marked with yellow skulls (sector 1513), but you actually don't need the key to open it.

 

-And... it's not an issue per se, but the BFG is pretty much useless by the time you get two keys to get it.

 

Re: Two-way walls trap:

 

There are sound-blocking lines in place so that shooting won't trigger the enemies until you're at the bottom of the stairs. Unless a shot hits an enemy, of course.

 

- That's a fair point about the arena. I made sure it was possible, but I suppose it could be a bit too tedious. That was something I was wondering about. I could provide another weapon there. A double-barrel probably isn't enough, maybe a rocket launcher with some scattered rockets to at least cut down on the shooting.

 

Re: The door marked with yellow skulls

 

That one, which doesn't require a key is working as intended.

:) It's one of the tricks, to catch anyone who just sees the mark, but doesn't actually check the door. Did you discover that you don't actually need the blue key there either?

 

Re: The usefulness of the BFG.

 

The BFG isn't useless. It depends on what key you get last. If you go for the blue key last, it's excellent in the arena and the palace. If you go for the yellow key last, it's good in a few tricky fights. If you get the red key last, it's not as useful, but it is good on the spectres or the arch-Vile trap, or possibly other parts of the level you may not have explored.

[Caleb13]

@Stabbey "Did you discover that you don't actually need the blue key there either?"

 

You mean the blue door behind the "yellow" door? But you actually do need the blue key to open that one.

[Stabbey]

On 8/19/2020 at 4:54 PM, Caleb13 said:

@Stabbey "Did you discover that you don't actually need the blue key there either?"

 

You mean the blue door behind the "yellow" door? But you actually do need the blue key to open that one.

 

Correct, you need the blue key to open the door.

 

 

I've added a Rocket Launcher to the arena you mentioned. I'm not sure how much it'll help you preserve your health, but now more firepower is available should you so choose.

 

Version 2.01
- Altered the Pain Elemental/Mancubus/Revenant Arena.
-- Added a Rocket Launcher and rockets
-- Switched which sector was the secret sector
-- Moved the switch for the secret sector and added a second trigger for it.
- Added another autosave line before the arena for less frustration

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Stabbey

[Stabbey]

EDIT: Current Version is Version 2.03

 

Version 2.03
- Added teleport lines to move half the Mancubi from the Sladwall trap to a monster closet for later.
- Removed one switch from the fake wall area and made the lift switch easier to see.
- Moved the quiet area sectors closer to the rest of the map to make the automap maximum size smaller.
- Added corpses to the quiet area.
- Removed "Does not appear on Automap" tag from all the lines in the maze.
- Added "Does not appear on Automap" tag to room at the end of the maze.
- Added W1 Autosave line to room at the end of the maze.
- Adjusted and simplified the Keen 3 secret to make it not require entering a separate section.
- Items on north stairs are now all in a nice neat line.
- Changed a texture to make a hidden switch playtesters keep missing more obvious.

 

https://www.doomworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=96658

 

Updated to Version 2.02, largely to prevent a keygrab a playtester notified me about.

 

Version 2.02
- Joined some sectors for better sound propagation
- Moved the second trigger for the Section 1 secret sector
- Adjusted some vertexes to prevent a keygrab through a wall.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Stabbey

[Clippy]

Whoops my mic was set up wrong .... hope you can hear me !!

 

 

[Stabbey]

15 hours ago, Clippy said:

Whoops my mic was set up wrong .... hope you can hear me !!

 

 

Thanks for the playthrough, the feedback was very good, and the next version will have some changes because of it.

 

My full comments on your video are here under the spoiler-tag.

 

Spoiler

Octagon - Southeast
- The game saving my itself was because Ultimate Doombuilder has linedef 348 with the option "W1 Autosave". It's supposed to be helpful to the player
- The Double-barrel shotgun elevator is a little easier if you kill the enemies which appear on the platform before hitting the switch, but it was amusing to watch you go maximum chaos.
- I did test for hitting the switch without clearing out the teleporting-in-enemies, and decided that it was fine to punish the player for making that mistake. I also tested just running to the end of the sladwall corridor and I almost always died to Revenant missiles, and thought that was also fine.
- As someone who has accidentally blown themselves up blasting those barrels even knowing they were there, I enjoyed seeing it work on someone else.
- The gauntlet of mancubi can be raced past, and if the line of barrels are intact, they self-terminate.
- Fair enough point about the 14 Mancubi. That's one of the blind spots I've had from making the map, I just know to kill them with the barrels, but that's one of the "player is punished for not reading the map-maker's mind things".
- The next version, I'm adding in teleport lines, so half the Mancubi will vanish to a monster pen and re-appear sometime later.
- The rocket-launcher secret is a secret partly because flipping the switch opens up a shoot-switch which let you get the "Keen #7" secret.

 

Octagon - Northeast
- The confusion from all those big rooms without traps is the intended effect. The player is expecting a trap there. When they get back to the main room, they think it's the same place and they let their guard down.
- The Pain elementals are there to create time pressure and force you to engage instead of hanging back and trying to let the monsters infight eachother to death.
- At 19:44, you activated one of the lines which lowered a lift right there, but you didn't notice.
- The shaft that drops you outside is there for co-op play, to prevent players from being stuck while someone else is in the arena.
- The door-opening button is repeatable because there are multiple door-close lines, and trapping the player is a big no-no.

 

Octagon - South
- The maze is designed to filter the player to where they need to go. You were literally one left turn at a branch away from the exit.
- The blinking lights are indeed significant, they point the correct path. But I'll remove the "hidden from automap" tag and make the maze a little smaller.
- There's an invulnerability at the top of the rising lift with the Arch-Viles which you missed.

 

Octagon - Southwest
- The key-tagged yellow skull door opening without a key is working as intended. It's one of the tricks. Unfortunately, some assume it must be an error.

 

Octagon - West
- Yes! You got caught by the SM fake wall! I figured someone might try to hide there to cheese the mastermind with cover.
- The stairs move at standard mover speed, there's just a lot of them.

 

Octagon - Northwest
- I could probably remove one switch from the fake-wall room.
- Seeing it again, the secret in that area is unnecessarily convoluted to find.

 

Octagon - North
- The jumping puzzle is easier if you're walking not running. But yes, it's just there to trick you into thinking you need to jump, when all you have to do is simply shoot the switch.
- That water used to be a brown slime damage floor, but I changed it because I realized that would discourage people from trying to jump across.
- The long hallway afterwards is needed simply because the areas to either side mean I simply don't have the space to put the next arena in.

- The hedge maze is intended to be tricky and force players into playing differently to deal with the Blur handicap. In this case, this means ducking behind corners instead of dodging side-to-side. You started picking up on that around 53:20.
- The strategy is generally to keep moving around so you don't get boxed in, but hiding in the cubbyholes is fine too.
- All the rockets in the hedge maze are because the player could, conceivably, come to that part first without even having a SSG.
- I'm surprised the ambush chaingunners got you.

- In play-testing, I discovered that the chaingun is surprisingly good at handling the final ambush in the TekGreen room. The monsters will also happily infight and it's hard to say who will survive.
- "Not enough health"? Well, in that room, I provide 7 Medikits (175% health) and 9 stimpaks before the final monsters are released. I am someone who is careful about wasting health packs, but I do put in extras for those who vacuum them up.

- Yes, you were intended to hedge-jump across to get the key, although there was a longer, but easier path, which I tried to indicate with wider hedges.

 

Final stretch
- While it can take a while to get keys, however, the keys only open up the exit door. Also, no one has noticed this yet, but the red key can be acquired without having any other keys.
- You can't use free-look to rocket-jump to get the blue keys on pillars. There are impassible lines there.
- Oh, you found the NOPE, nice!
- The secret in the Red Key room had 25 helmets on top of eachother.
- "Where was the Keen?" All over, in secrets, one per door leading off the octagon. The first one, Number 0, was a freebie, the tutorial one. That's what the numbers on the floor below the red or green panels are. Red means you haven't found and killed that Keen yet.