A Question For Programmers

nope; if someone wants to learn C++, there's no reason for him to learn C it all, because it'll only make him confused (again, C++ is NOT a superset of C).

C++ is built off of C. You can't learn to walk without learning to crawl.

Yes, you can learn the functions and commands in C++ that replaced their old, inefficient counterparts in plain vanilla C, but there is shit common to both of them that must be learned.

Do you know ANYTHING about programming?

Ah, jeez

For the first guy who posted, yes, C++ is your best bet. Its really your only choice right now.

Misc. Stuff that needs to be said:

1) C++ is a superset of C. Period.
2) I learned C from the K&R book when I was in about 5th grade with no prior programming knowledge. Its not that hard. You make it seem much harder then it is.
3) If you complain about sitting in #c answering newbie questions then either don't asnwer them or don't sit in the channel. Don't complain about stupid things that you can fix easily.

There are skills common to basically all higher level programming languages that must be mastered. You can start with c++, you can start with Java, you can start with pascal (teaching language).

Exactly. What I mean is that in C or C++ you have, apart from these "common skills", lots of complicated details that do NOT enhance your programming abilities - only your knowledge of C or C++ - but require a lot of time and effort to learn. For example, pointers and arrays and the distinction between the two. They can be confusing for a newbie, who has to learn both general programming skills and these small details at the same time, and can not always see what is important and what isn't.

Once you know how to program, all you have to do is apply the concepts in the syntax of another language. If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

Exactly, which is why i suggest to learn the more important concepts first, and the syntax afterwards - scheme is great for that, having almost no syntax.

The fucking language has NOTHING to do with it you fucking moron.

How old are you?

Actually, its probably better to start with C or C++ then something like Java.

And as for newbies and pointers:

Experienced programmers mess up pointers. Just look at how many programs have huge memory leaks (AIM is a great example).

1) C++ is a superset of C. Period.

It's not. If it were, than any C program would correctly compile on a C++ compiler.

3) If you complain about sitting in #c answering newbie questions then either don't asnwer them or don't sit in the channel. Don't complain about stupid things that you can fix easily.

I don't complain, I just stated my bias

It was said already in this thread, but... (Visual) BASIC is a good thing to start with.

If I had my stroustrup book around, I would find where he says its a superset of C and quote it for you. Its a superset of C -- I can mix the two languages and get something that compiles. If I don't like cout, I can use printf instead, and get the same results.

VB?!?!?

VB is useless, ugly, bloated, slow, and, well, crappy.

Yeah, vb sucks.

I would like to know how fraggle has started... fortran, cobol? :)

I also thought about learning a language, but I was also uncertain about what I should start with. Some people said basic, but I think that would be a waste of time. Those "Dummie" books... hmm, maybe I grab one.

Don't buy a for dummies book. You won't learn anything.

How old are you?

How long have you been programming?

And it's not that hard to confuse pointers and arrays -- they're not even variations on same thing! They're completely different for Christ's sake! Only a newbie, like yourself would think of consufing them.

Pointers aren't that important anymore unless you want to make a linked list. Other than that, they were implemented heavliy in previous generations of code in order to save system memory. But now that many people have ridiculous amounts of RAM in their systems (512MB for me) pointers aren't nearly as important as they used to be.

But I'd sure as hell say that arrays are important.

And the features exclusive to C++ are time savers to having to avoid writing your code -- you get built in functions rather than having to write your own code to do it! They are meant to simplify coding, not make it harder to learn!

And if you don't learn syntax as well as the concepts, you'll never be successful. HOW do you expect to code without learning the syntax?

If you don't like syntax then why don't you go and teach the newbies HTML? HTML has almost 0% syntax, now that's a winner!

BTW, Dortmunder13 and me are both CPE majors. Who the fuck do you think you are, some 12 year old script kiddie that thinks he can code?

EDIT: Yeah...most decent compilers will compile C and C++ code together, why do you have the impression that they're two totally separate languages?

Don't buy a for dummies book. You won't learn anything.

So what should I start with (have no programming knowledge at all)?

Dortmunder13: Are you from the town Dortmund in Germany? That´s the place where I study :)

get the Kerrigan and Ritchie C book or the Stroustrup C++ book. Those are the 2 best books that I know of.

You don't want the Stroustrup reference book...you want the one about object oriented programming in c++(I think, I don't have the books with me right now.)

No, I'm not from Germany; I got my name from a character in Donald E. Westlake books.

BTW, Dortmunder13 and me are both CPE majors. Who the fuck do you think you are, some 12 year old script kiddie that thinks he can code?

It's interesting that a CPE major can't keep himself from using ad homini arguments (and the word 'fuck' in every sentence).

EDIT: Yeah...most decent compilers will compile C and C++ code together, why do you have the impression that they're two totally separate languages?

see david.tribble.com/text/cdiffs.htm, for example.


I won't argue here anymore, because it's just silly. If you want to devastate me further, please go to irc.openprojects.net, my nick is lament, thank you and good night.

Yeah, vb sucks.

I mean for learning programming, not making use of.

How high are the language requierements in those english written programming books? I mean, if I can read the stuff written on this forum, would I be able to handle those books? Can I start with them without having any programming knowledge?

How high are the language requierements in those english written programming books? I mean, if I can read the stuff written on this forum, would I be able to handle those books? Can I start with them without having any programming knowledge?

Absolutely. But then, I'm sure you can get them in German, too :)

I started with the C book without programming knowledge but I had someone to help me if I had questions. I could read the book when I was in 5th grade, so the english part of it isn't that difficult.

Obviously, having programming knowedlge would help, however it isn't absolutely neccesary - your first language is always the most difficult one, with the subsequent languages being fairly easy. It doesn't matter which you choose, your still gonna have some trouble with it, probably. Just make sure you understand everything and all the examples.

I would like to know how fraggle has started... fortran, cobol? :)

I also thought about learning a language, but I was also uncertain about what I should start with. Some people said basic, but I think that would be a waste of time. Those "Dummie" books... hmm, maybe I grab one.

I started with BASIC, and then eventually moved on to C (although BASIC didnt really teach me _anything_ as a coder). I then went on to learn various other languages: C++, Java, Perl, C# etc.. C is still my strongest language, it takes some time to get your head round but it is a fairly good language to learn from.

I've heard that Python is quite a good language for beginners.

And it's not that hard to confuse pointers and arrays -- they're not even variations on same thing! They're completely different for Christ's sake! Only a newbie, like yourself would think of consufing them.

Under C, arrays are little more than pointers made to look prettier.

Edit: I should probably add that only a newbie wouldnt know this :)

a [ b ] = *(a + b)

Heh, here's something I saw in one of the Python tutorials:

14 / 3 == 4

I guess it's not all that simple to learn :P

That was a joke, by the way...

An array is a collection of values of the same type, each value having a position, or index value, with an index value from 0 to n, where n---> some huge number of your choosing.

It can have anywhere from 1 to n dimensions,
where n-->infinity (assuming your computer can handle some incredibly huge number w/o running out of ram).

A pointer is literally an arrow that says that Variable A has the value of Variable B, without actually allocating memory for variable A.

Lament...you're LAMEnt. LAMEnt. Notice what I'm trying to say? That's good, you go back to your little twisted #C channel.

EDIT: Lament, why all of the sudden that I mention I'm a CPE major, do you start acing older than 12 years? And what does my use of the word "fuck" have to do with my major? I'll replace all the instance of "fuck" with "lament is a shitface" if that would give u a bigger orgasm.

Wow, this is really an odd subject to cause a flamewar...

An array is a collection of values of the same type, each value having a position, or index value.

It can have anywhere from 1 to n dimensions,
where n-->infinity (assuming your computer can handle some incredibly huge number w/o running out of ram)

A pointer is literally an arrow that says that Variable A has the value of Variable B, without actually allocating memory for variable A.

An array is just a pointer to an area of memory where a collection of values of the same type are stored.

Try this:

int main() {
int myints[] = { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 0 };
int *p;

for(p=myints; *p != 0; ++p) {
printf("%i\n", *p);
}
}

Lament...you're LAMEnt. LAMEnt. Notice what I'm trying to say? That's good, you go back to your little twisted #C channel.

EDIT: Lament, why all of the sudden that I mention I'm a CPE major, do you start acing older than 12 years? And what does my use of the word "fuck" have to do with my major? I'll replace all the instance of "fuck" with "lament is a shitface" if that would give u a bigger orgasm.

Its hilarious just how worked up you're getting over this. I'd suggest that you at least actually learn languages properly before you start arguing over them.

Contrary to popular belief, VB is pretty good, and it gets better and better. Sure, there was a time when it was 4 times slower than C++, but I've worked on a DirectX7 powered 3D game and it actually worked. VB did not limit the development in any way, it's just that we ran out of time.

VB is useless, ugly, bloated, slow, and, well, crappy.

VB is good if you want to earn big money, not saying anything about the pro's and con's, just it's very easy to earn big money

About VB and speed... heh, I wrote an extremely simple C program to search prime numbers, and when I rewrote it in VB(6), I got a performance that was many times slower than with the C program (compiled with DJGPP). There were no hacks or tricks, just integer addition, multiplication and comparison.

That's not a definitive test. This game I'm talking about runned at 70 FPS on a TNT2 card, on 1024x768. I think it's pretty acceptable.

I know this'll sound stupid to people who program for a living or a hobby, but exactly WHAT program do you go into to actually write the code itself?
What I mean is, do you type it up in Wordpad or Notepad or what?

You can use whatever you want, altough it would be a lot better if you used an editor who checks syntax and manages the resources. The whole Developer Studio from MS comes to mind, but there are tons of good freeware editors...