Tom's Halls: A Doom Alpha Community Project (MUSICIANS WANTED!)

[nicolas monti]

1 hour ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

Apologies, if I am confused with map names reshuffling between pre-release and release version, but are there chances E1M2 is included?
Sure this seems to be a map Romero was working mostly, but both Romero and Hall agreed it was an important milestone for development of the game, it was part of the earliest set of maps (screenies from as early as March 1993 are showing it), and it even has a pre-beta version to have something to start with. Sure, this will be a reverse journey as compared to the process with all other maps, but would it be a reasonable addition to the consideration list?

 

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It is included, it has the E1M8 slot in the alphas, the 0.3 version is very underdeveloped, about 60% of the surface of the final map.

[ludicrous_peridot]

Thanks for confirming this. It would be rad for this to start with a demo of the full playthrough of level, like the shareware versions did, but the level being all "new" all of a sudden.

[taufan99]

After having gone through a lengthy consideration, I think I'd like to go with 0.5 E1M1, while also incorporating elements of 0.2 demo level and 0.3 THESTORE. Let's see how this plays out later on.

[Faceman2000]

3 hours ago, taufan99 said:

After having gone through a lengthy consideration, I think I'd like to go with 0.5 E1M1, while also incorporating elements of 0.2 demo level and 0.3 THESTORE. Let's see how this plays out later on.

Sounds great! They're yours!

[Plerb]

@Faceman2000 Could I also incorporate 0.4 E1M6 into my level?

Edited August 7, 2023 by Plerb

[SiFi270]

If extramap is on the table, could the map seen in these prerelease screenshots of PSX Doom also be feasible?

[Faceman2000]

2 minutes ago, SiFi270 said:

If extramap is on the table, could the map seen in these prerelease screenshots of PSX Doom also be feasible?

That would certainly cool, but this project is Ultimate Doom specific. If we wind up doing a Doom II followup, it could potentially be a candidate, but I don't feel there's really enough there to build off of.

[Wadmodder Shalton]

There's also this screenshot found in a Slovenian magazine that should be a perfect fit with the COMM1 map.

[Faceman2000]

4 hours ago, Plerb said:

@Faceman2000 Could I also incorporate 0.4 E1M6 into my level?

I missed this earlier - absolutely!

[Wadmodder Shalton]

There's also these pre-release screenshots depicting near-final versions of Doom's maps.

 

October 1993 Preview

Spoiler

Doom Companion CD-ROM

Spoiler

Hopefully these screenshots would be useful for this project.

[Blast_Brothers]

I'd like to try and turn 0.4 E1M5 into a boss map - there's a few spots that feel like great places for a cyberdemon showdown.

[Faceman2000]

15 minutes ago, Blast_Brothers said:

I'd like to try and turn 0.4 E1M5 into a boss map - there's a few spots that feel like great places for a cyberdemon showdown.

Intriguing - have at it!

[nicolas monti]

0.3SHAWN2 is up for testing

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/zwvt671xzyhsmuj/03SHAWN2bynicolasmonti.wad/file

 

It runs on E2M1 for now, @Faceman2000 will decide, Don't forget the resouce wad!

All the original Tom Hall's linedefs are there, all the imps are untouched, in the same position.

 

 

Also I've noticed a couple of things that could be improved for the resource pack but I can live without:

1) The nukage flat could be replaced with the actual alpha nukage

2) some carpet flats are lacking (angles, the one with the square at the center)

3) some textures are lacking like the pipe with the brown step at the top, nothing very important, I just noticed.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by nicolas monti

[Wadmodder Shalton]

There's also these set of screenshots that were released by id Software during the early development of Doom.

 

Hopefully these can be useful for this project.

[Wadmodder Shalton]

There's this sketch for a proposed map by Tom Hall, John Romero or Sandy Peterson found in the 1998 release of The Doom Bible.

Hopefully this is useful for this project.

[Tycitron]

Ah man i wish i had mapping skills to contribute to this! This looks like the perfect mod to play with Doom Delta when this is finished.

[Faceman2000]

@nicolas monti, oh my goodness that was incredible! You did an awesome job of taking a bunch of loose rooms and empty hallways and turning them into a journey. I'm honestly floored.

 

The good:

Spoiler

• I love how interconnected the level is. The fact that you are able to see areas well before you visit them is extremely cool.
• Both blue key traps were devilish and unexpected without being unfair. I loved them!
• There's a lot of creative texture usage and the Doomcute is a lot of fun.
• Combat and ammo are well-balanced.

The bad:

Spoiler

• Is there supposed to be two blue keys?
• I almost got soft-locked in the southern stone and metal room (sectors 253-256) when my radsuit ran out while fighting Barons. Consider adding another radsuit there or lowering the floor damage.
• Consider having sector 32 raise by 24 when you reach sector 375 - that way, if the player leaves to explore further, they can easily reach the exit again
• Massive amounts of the map are fullbright and have CEIL3_4. Consider adding more variety and context - in the areas where you did use different light levels, it looks really, really good.

The ugly:

Spoiler

• Throughout the level, you are very creative and experimental in your texture choices. In a lot of places it looks really good, but in others the map is really ugly to look at. The main problems stem from one of the following:
  • Not using borders between different textures. This isn't always a hard and fast rule, but overall it's a good rule of thumb to follow. For example, oftentimes you will use totally different textures above and below windows without any transition from the textures on either side.
  • Using textures with clashing visual style or theme side-by-side (generally SHAWN2 with gritty textures)
    • This is sort of a subset of the border problem. Oftentimes you go from SHAWN2 - a very clean texture - to a BROWNGRN variant or PIPEs or something of the sort. This clashes visually and usually doesn't look great.
  • Using support-style textures for entire walls. You use SUPPORT4 and SHAWBRD3/4 a lot throughout. Some places it looks fine, but other's it's very repetitive and hard on the eyes.
  • Overuse of SHAWN2 in general.
  • Texture alignment, specifically with GRAYROT textures.

The level took me about 25 minutes to get through. I got 100% kills but only found one secret. Again, I'm really impressed. Great job!

 

Also, could you show me which pipe with the brown step texture you are referring to so I can get it added to the resource wad? Thanks!

[nicolas monti]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

@nicolas monti, oh my goodness that was incredible! You did an awesome job of taking a bunch of loose rooms and empty hallways and turning them into a journey. I'm honestly floored.

 

The good:

  Hide contents

• I love how interconnected the level is. The fact that you are able to see areas well before you visit them is extremely cool.
• Both blue key traps were devilish and unexpected without being unfair. I loved them!
• There's a lot of creative texture usage and the Doomcute is a lot of fun.
• Combat and ammo are well-balanced.

The bad:

  Hide contents

• Is there supposed to be two blue keys?
• I almost got soft-locked in the southern stone and metal room (sectors 253-256) when my radsuit ran out while fighting Barons. Consider adding another radsuit there or lowering the floor damage.
• Consider having sector 32 raise by 24 when you reach sector 375 - that way, if the player leaves to explore further, they can easily reach the exit again
• Massive amounts of the map are fullbright and have CEIL3_4. Consider adding more variety and context - in the areas where you did use different light levels, it looks really, really good.

The ugly:

  Hide contents

• Throughout the level, you are very creative and experimental in your texture choices. In a lot of places it looks really good, but in others the map is really ugly to look at. The main problems stem from one of the following:
  • Not using borders between different textures. This isn't always a hard and fast rule, but overall it's a good rule of thumb to follow. For example, oftentimes you will use totally different textures above and below windows without any transition from the textures on either side.
  • Using textures with clashing visual style or theme side-by-side (generally SHAWN2 with gritty textures)
    • This is sort of a subset of the border problem. Oftentimes you go from SHAWN2 - a very clean texture - to a BROWNGRN variant or PIPEs or something of the sort. This clashes visually and usually doesn't look great.
  • Using support-style textures for entire walls. You use SUPPORT4 and SHAWBRD3/4 a lot throughout. Some places it looks fine, but other's it's very repetitive and hard on the eyes.
  • Overuse of SHAWN2 in general.
  • Texture alignment, specifically with GRAYROT textures.

The level took me about 25 minutes to get through. I got 100% kills but only found one secret. Again, I'm really impressed. Great job!

 

Also, could you show me which pipe with the brown step texture you are referring to so I can get it added to the resource wad? Thanks!

 

Thanks for the review, some points:

 

* 2 blue keys: I'll correct lol

 

* areas with full brightness and a lot of shawn2: I've tried to keep the essence of the original map, the gray overuse is much like some areas of spawning vats.

 

*transition textures: I'll have a look a it, take into account that Tom Hall does not make much use of them when you look at his alfa maps, even the finished versions of his maps,

nonetheless I'll smooth out some transitions!

 

*alignment: I'll align those grayrot, I'm used to almost non alignment, it feels artficial to me when it comes to curves but some times I can go too far for the standard taste.

 

*radsuits: I've tried to make the player rush through the tunnels, maybe adding health would help in that part.

 

*I'll check that height stuff at the exit.

 

EDIT: file updated

It partially takes care of the issues you pointed out, I actually use shawn per se as a transition texture, its like wearing jeans to me, it fits everything. Nevertheless I can edit those transitions that you feel too bad if you point them out individually to me.

 

the infamous texture is this fine piece of creation:

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by nicolas monti

[ludicrous_peridot]

A question after having tried both levels available at the moment - with stylistic differences that they have (and that those that will follow will have) would they go into different episodes?

 

What I mean is E5M1 looks like a romerish techbase. It is a slick level overall and could be a great first level in any episode (fully subscribe to the feels official statement above), but with the roster of monsters and how it sets you up for a challenge by giving a sphere, it feels like a first map of an alternative Thy flesh, that happens on Mars  instead of a purgatory (or whatever that was).

 

SHAWN2 on the other hand feels hallish all the way, with the obviously human built  architecture using different principles and different materials altogether. Seems like a glimpse of Tei Tenga underground complex here (maybe not even a UAC base).

 

I am curious how the two styles will be married eventually, player progression-wise.

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Faceman2000]

1 hour ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

I am curious how the two styles will be married eventually, player progression-wise.

Quite frankly, so am I! As a community project allowing for a wide range of interpretations, there’s definitely going to be quite some variety in the end results, which is okay in my opinion. The progression will be determined once all maps have been submitted, and they will be arranged based on several factors including theme, difficulty, and length.

[Lone2401]

I was looking through the resource wad, and the brown water (SWATER1-4) and bridge over nukage (SLIME01-04) flats clash with the liquids in the release game. Could we replace SWATER with it's Doom 2 counterpart and use an edited version of SLIME0x?

[Faceman2000]

I’m going to leave the SWATER flats as are - I’ve always thought they looked really cool and I like that they aren’t a straight recolor of the others. As for the nukage bridge flats, I did edit some together with nukage consistent with the other flats a couple years ago; I’ll go ahead and replace the current ones with them.

[taufan99]

Also, while we're at it, would anyone be willing to send some comparison screenshots/videos/etc. between the alpha/beta maps and their actual finished counterpart(s), preferably side-by-side?

[Faceman2000]

7 hours ago, taufan99 said:

Also, while we're at it, would anyone be willing to send some comparison screenshots/videos/etc. between the alpha/beta maps and their actual finished counterpart(s), preferably side-by-side?

I updated the first post with a bunch of links down the bottom so you (and anyone else) can compare each map at your leisure!

22 hours ago, nicolas monti said:

the infamous texture is this fine piece of creation:

Thanks for making those edits! I'll take a look when I get a chance. As for that texture, I'm happy to recreate it and add it to the texture wad if you'd like - the only issue is it will tile different. The original texture is 200 px high and Doom's renderer doesn't play well with textures over 128 px.

[nicolas monti]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

I updated the first post with a bunch of links down the bottom so you (and anyone else) can compare each map at your leisure!

Thanks for making those edits! I'll take a look when I get a chance. As for that texture, I'm happy to recreate it and add it to the texture wad if you'd like - the only issue is it will tile different. The original texture is 200 px high and Doom's renderer doesn't play well with textures over 128 px.

 

thanks for taking the texture in account, you can make 128 units tall no problem (its pipe and a brown ledge at the top no more than that) or I can even recretate it using sector tricks at the end. What is an easy fix are the angles of the blue carpet, there are some repeated ones that only need rotation.

This one is also lacking:

 

 

[Faceman2000]

Just now, nicolas monti said:

thanks for taking the texture in account, you can make 128 units tall no problem (its pipe and a brown ledge at the top no more thant that) ot I can even recretate it using sector tricks at the end. What is an easy fix are the angles of the blue carpet, there are some repeated ones that only need rotation.

This one is also lacking:

I doublechecked and that one is in there - it's titled FLOOR5_8. I made rotations of the other carpet flats and so they'll be present in the next update. There's also a couple textures I want to fix manually as they use negative y-offsets for their patches which is a no-go in vanilla.

[ludicrous_peridot]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:22 PM, nicolas monti said:

EDIT: file updated

It partially takes care of the issues you pointed out, I actually use shawn per se as a transition texture, its like wearing jeans to me, it fits everything. Nevertheless I can edit those transitions that you feel too bad if you point them out individually to me

 

Played the updated level. Took me 50 minutes to beat on UV with 100% kills and then maybe 30 minutes more find the path to the remaining 2 secrets even with the computer map. Gameplay-wise it was great (agree with the points @Faceman2000 has made above). I thought I shared the obvious spots where some realignment could make it look even better.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

Also this guy - would it work better if the staircase is less steep? 

It's fun seeing the corpse slide down the stairs chop-chop-chop, yes, but the battle, which is so nicely set up, feels anti-climatic, when you just slide there-and back and keep pumping the shotgun at the trapped beastie...

 

 

[nicolas monti]

4 hours ago, ludicrous_peridot said:

 

Played the updated level. Took me 50 minutes to beat on UV with 100% kills and then maybe 30 minutes more find the path to the remaining 2 secrets even with the computer map. Gameplay-wise it was great (agree with the points @Faceman2000 has made above). I thought I shared the obvious spots where some realignment could make it look even better.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

  Hide contents

Also this guy - would it work better if the staircase is less steep? 

It's fun seeing the corpse slide down the stairs chop-chop-chop, yes, but the battle, which is so nicely set up, feels anti-climatic, when you just slide there-and back and keep pumping the shotgun at the trapped beastie...

 

 

 

Thanks man so much for the pics, I'll take care of those things!

 

EDIT: file updated with the corrections, same link.

Edited August 10, 2023 by nicolas monti

[Plerb]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:29 PM, Faceman2000 said:

Supposedly un23 is in Demonstar as well but I was unable to find it

 

I think un23 became the Level 2 and 9 song in Demonstar, known as "Slow Rocket" in the metadata: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UDdn59dA9w

[Individualised]

un23 is often said to have become Into Sandy's City but I really doubt this, the MIDI structure is completely different and Bobby Prince re-uses common motifs across different songs, even across different franchises there are signature Bobby Prince motifs. The Into Sandy's City riff only bears a passing resemblance to Sex Type Thing by Stone Temple Pilots so it's kinda odd to me how that comparison still sticks around and is presented as fact on places like Doomwiki. Bobby Prince has even talked about the creation of that specific track in interviews and he didn't mention anything about it being based on anything else, though he also explicitly said At Doom's Gate wasn't inspired by any song and we know that's not true now. I'd remove it but I think it would have to be discussed first before Doomwiki admins would accept the change as Doom song inspirations are a very contentious topic.

 

What I'm pretty sure of, as has been pointed out by another member here before, is that un20.mid became In the Dark.