Fragport: forum demo project

[Kristian Ronge]

I'd like to record for map 4, if nobody would mind. Clearly the best map in the pack.. my favourite. :-)

[Ryback]

Actually, the first DSF demopack was done this way, everyone reserving a map then recording for it. I think we changed that because it was too much hassle reserving maps - and also to get competition to drive the times down.

Another thing: AdamW did have one demo in the final AV pack - the map17 maxdemo (which beat one of mine!) I don't think he minded too much about Henning putting the hurt on his other demo.

So we're reserving maps? Right. I'd like to reserve map14 and map15. Got a demo for both, but I'll try and improve first...

[Grazza]

OK, I've updated the list (first post in this thread).

I've just been leafing through Fragport, casually looking for one I might record next, and noticed how many of the maps feature "nods" to other well-known wads; e.g. map19: wtrfront.wad (and here we can actually visit the lighthouse); map20 has walkways like those in uac_dead, and of course Plutonia's influence in clear in many places.

[Rich]

Erik said:

I personally prefer the more competetive way of making demopacks, but that's just me. If my demo gets jacked by some Vile run, so what? it's all for the better in the long run and people can still watch my demo if they really want to.

I was simply stating the conditions under which demosets like marswar, Hell2Pay, and the currently active Fragport were established by some of us who have participated in this forum since its' inception.

It certainly does not preclude you or anyone else, who may prefer a more competitive environment, from starting yet another demoset (hopefully of a different megawad, as it might get a bit confusing) with rules that accept only the fastest demo for each map and invites anyone who wishes to participate. That's fine. I don't think anyone would object to your doing that. Btw... I am not in the position to set any rules. I just feel this falls within the definition of the overall forum rules.

I don't have a hidden agenda. My only purpose in this post and the last is to give everyone a valid chance to see their work accepted. :)

My understanding of the Demo Forum was to allow anyone, whether semi-skilled or highly skilled, the opportunity to participate for the purpose of learning, if need be, as well as having their demos posted. As we all know, they can post demos regardless of and aside from any demoset conditions. However, if they wish to participate in a demoset then there must be some conditions defined. By having both types everyone wins.

[Erik]

Yes, I do in no way intend trying to make the forum work the way I described, I simply stated what I personally prefer.

[Ryback]

Two levels done:

fr14-535
fr15-831

(Right clicking works on these, but left clicking doesn't. Weird.)

[Grazza]

Yes, there's scope here for both DSF-style demopacks and for ones of the type we have done so far. As long as it is clear from the outset in each case, it shouldn't lead to any problems.

And, of course, people can submit any demos to the forum they like - as long as they are valid demos, there is no question of them being rejected or deleted. We haven't laid down formal criteria in that respect, but Doug's rules at DSDA seem a good model (it should play back OK with something, you should exit the map unless there is a good reason not to, and the map should be either a commercial wad or else a pwad that is available for download somewhere).

Having said that, it might feel pretty awkward if someone posted demos that beat the times of those in a "once you reserve a map it's yours" demopack while that pack is still in progress. I certainly wouldn't do so myself (even assuming I could!).

Ryback: Just downloaded those two OK. BTW, if the DSF FTP still works fine but the forums don't, I see no reason why this forum shouldn't become the new home for the organizing of DSF packs.

[Grazza]

Ryback: I hate to say this, but there's an imp alive at the end of your map14 demo (I checked with Eternity's walkcam, since the % kills seemed a bit low). I think it's thing no. 23, coordinates -992, -32, but I'll check that.

[Ryback]

Grazza said:

Ryback: Just downloaded those two OK. BTW, if the DSF FTP still works fine but the forums don't, I see no reason why this forum shouldn't become the new home for the organizing of DSF packs.

Well the DSF forums have been dead for about a year now. Martin Schultz just as long - he hasn't posted here since August 2002.

Organizing the Scythe demopack at the C-N forums worked fine, though here would be just as good. Depends - I'm a bit more restrictive in the packs I organize. I'm the kind of guy who'd love it if everybody recorded in Doom2.exe, though I suppose at a stretch prboom -complevel 0 would be okay. Nobody plays with the original exes anymore...

Anyway, see what happens.

Grazza said:

Ryback: I hate to say this, but there's an imp alive at the end of your map14 demo (I checked with Eternity's walkcam, since the % kills seemed a bit low). I think it's thing no. 23, coordinates -992, -32, but I'll check that.

Aaah! Oh well, time to hit the keyboard.

[Grazza]

Ryback said:

Organizing the Scythe demopack at the C-N forums worked fine, though here would be just as good. Depends - I'm a bit more restrictive in the packs I organize. I'm the kind of guy who'd love it if everybody recorded in Doom2.exe, though I suppose at a stretch prboom -complevel 0 would be okay. Nobody plays with the original exes anymore...

I had in mind that the rules would be set by whoever was organizing it - just as if it were a genuine DSF project. I think "it should play back with Doom2.exe" is a good rule though - it doesn't condemn us poor XPers to playing without sound. I think it makes sense for a "competitive" demo pack not to allow a completely free choice of port, since even subtle port features can make a big difference (e.g. on Scythe map26, z-axis clipping ought to make 1 or 2 seconds difference for Speed and NM).

Aaah! Oh well, time to hit the keyboard.

FWIW, I rechecked and found a baron too (near the vertex at 832, 640). I liked the demo otherwise though - your route minimized resurrections very nicely.

[Kristian Ronge]

Quick question.. is using the .deh necessary for demo recording? I haven't noticed any difference in the behaviour of the player/monsters when using it.

[Grazza]

I think it only changes the game text, the map names (in the automap), the messages for the yellow key and maybe some other cosmetic stuff. Demo playback seems to be unaffected by it.

I've watched the Doom2.exe-compatible demos so far using prboom and eternity (with the deh in both cases) and with Doom2.exe (without applying the deh or using deusf), and there have been no problems.

[Ryback]

All right, done faster this time:

fr14-502

Kristian Ronge said:

Quick question.. is using the .deh necessary for demo recording? I haven't noticed any difference in the behaviour of the player/monsters when using it.

Shouldn't do - all I can see in there are altered level names and some changed text. I haven't even got the .deh loaded.

Edit: Damn you Grazza!

[The Ultimate DooMer]

I actually recorded map 17 without the deh (as I forgot to load it) so it's ok as long as the port doesn't crash or anything.

[Kristian Ronge]

Made a first exit on map 4, but the time is too sucky to upload. I'll make a much better run soon and upload.

(In case someone out there isn't busy drooling over the HR2 demopack-in-the-making and wanted to know if anyone was still working on this!) :-D

[Grazza]

Kristian Ronge said:

(In case someone out there isn't busy drooling over the HR2 demopack-in-the-making and wanted to know if anyone was still working on this!) :-D

It's good to know that. And feel free to submit early exits; they can always be replaced later, and if other people watch it, they might be able to suggest some nice route improvements.

I won't have much opportunity to record anything ambitious before early Feb, but if this pack isn't finished by then, I'll tackle a bunch of them. Like I said in another thread, this demopack will get finished.

[Donce]

Ryback said:

Nobody plays with the original exes anymore...

I do.


Thought i'd drop in this demo project as well. Again, I'll choose a map randomly (I haven't even played nor seen Fragport yet) - let it be MAP31. I'll start recording it as soon as I have time, most probably this weekend.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

I recorded map 09 a few days ago, but I missed a health potion somewhere (99% items) so I'll have another go tonight.

Donce said:

let it be MAP31.

Heh.

[Grazza]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

I recorded map 09 a few days ago, but I missed a health potion somewhere (99% items) so I'll have another go tonight.

"Max" means max kills and max secrets. "Items" don't matter. It can be pretty tedious watching someone go round collecting lots of helmets and health potions.

To be a bit more precise, here is the definition from the Compet-n FAQ:

UV Maxkills: finishing the level as fast as possible, in Ultra Violence, killing every monster at least once, except lost souls, and with 100% secrets.

I raised an eyebrow at Donce's random selection, but I'm sure he'll cope with considerable aplomb.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Didn't know that. Hmm, I wonder why lost souls don't count? Even if they're spawned, they still count as monsters (especially where ZDoom is concerned).

Anyway, here's map 09 in 13:09. Not great, but not bad either.
(I've added it to the existing zipfile)

[Grazza]

Lost souls aren't counted because they aren't included in the kills total (well, except in Zdoom and relatives) and because they can easily get trapped in walls or in other inaccessible places. It would also make for some tedious demos with the player having to track down distant lost souls biting away at a wall, etc. It would also make verification more difficult (which is messy enough with archies about, or at least it was before Eternity's walkcam).

Actually, there's one thing I've always been a bit unsure about in the compet-n defin-n (heh): it sounds as if you don't need to rekill any resurrected monsters. Obviously you'd need to be 100% certain that any you left alive were the resurrected ones. Does anyone know for sure?

One thing that is clear: you don't need to kill monsters spawned by a boss shooter, only those in the map to start with.

[Donce]

Grazza said:

Actually, there's one thing I've always been a bit unsure about in the compet-n defin-n (heh): it sounds as if you don't need to rekill any resurrected monsters. Obviously you'd need to be 100% certain that any you left alive were the resurrected ones. Does anyone know for sure?

AFAIK in max you can't exit while there is at least one alive monster which isn't lost soul and wasn't spawned by boss shooter. Read: archville revived monsters should all be killed. I'm not 100% sure though.

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Heh.

Grazza said:

I raised an eyebrow at Donce's random selection, but I'm sure he'll cope with considerable aplomb.

Something tells me this isn't gonna be a usual map to record. This evening I'll see it myself.

[Kristian Ronge]

Grazza said:
Lost souls aren't counted because they aren't included in the kills total (well, except in Zdoom and relatives).

In ZDooM 1.22 lost souls are *not* included in the kills total, nor are they part of the # of monsters/killed monsters tally visible from the map overlay. Has that changed in the newer versions?

Actually, there's one thing I've always been a bit unsure about in the compet-n defin-n (heh): it sounds as if you don't need to rekill any resurrected monsters.

You need to kill resurrected monsters as well.

Apart from lost souls and boss-shooter-spawned monsters, NO monsters - resurrected or not, doesn't matter - may still be alive when you exit the map.

[Kristian Ronge]

Okay, I finally got around to recording some Fragport stuff yesterday and today. I've been busy with playing HR2! :-)

Here's map 4 UV max in 5:15, recorded in ZDooM 1.22. Enjoy!

http://www.d.kth.se/~d99-kro/demos/fr04-515.zip

I also saved a "funny" misc demo to show a close call (to say the least!)... It's not intended to be in the pack.

http://www.d.kth.se/~d99-kro/demos/fr04misc.zip

[Grazza]

Kristian: Yes, new versions of Zdoom include absolutely all monsters for the purpose of the kills percentage. Not sure when that change was made, but it isn't a very recent one. If you exit with 100% kills, that means that there is not single monster left alive in the map of any shape or form. Makes "UV respawn" a pretty difficult category. :)

Kristian and Donce both said that:
(resurrected monsters all need to be killed in Max)

That's what I have always assumed, and I have never claimed a demo as Max unless I have re-killed them. Still the definition struck me as at least ambiguous, and I recall seeing a demo (by someone good) where the player ignored an obviously resurrected monster, and exited once he had killed the archie responsible. Can't remember if it was a compet-n or DSDA demo though.

Anyway, coming back to Fragport, map31 is just kind of weird.

I took a look at map29 (I remember finding it interesting when I first played Fragport), and can't see how Max would be possible from a pistol start, barring a total luckfest (wake up the boss shooter and hope the archies get killed by the crossfire... yeah, right). So is this one UV Speed then? (That's tricky enough, since you are pretty much forced to do it pacifist-style and hope the archies don't fry you too much.)

[Donce]

Recorded MAP31. Really weird map but not hard. My goal was to do a 4:xx and 4:58 was the first such exit. Also did a misc NM demo. Sent them both to Grazza.

Now the funny part. When I read fragport.txt I just then realized that The Ultimate Doomer is the author of Operation: Lightning. Steven, should you have noted this fact in your sig, you'd seen the demos for this wad quite a while ago :) I recorded all 11 maps nearly a year ago and wrote the corresponding textfile but never uploaded them to SDA cause I just thought the demos were too poor. I'll now e-mail you the lmps.

Map31 NM

Map31 UV Max

[Grazza]

Received OK, and links added to your post. (edit: I've watched them now; nice!)

I find it a bit hard to believe that your Operation Lightning demos aren't worth watching. Especially where there aren't any pre-existing demos on a wad, I think it is good to make demos public, if for no other reason than so people can see the maps without the hard work of actually playing them.

Edit: The Operation: Lightning demos now have their own thread.

[VinceDSS]

Is this demopack closed ? I see that the latest post is rather old.

I was thinking about contributing with a demo or 2 (on your empty slots). But I need to know which port is recommended ?

And I also have to look through the maps and look for something appealing... :) I never played it yet.

[Kristian Ronge]

Hallelujah! :-D

No, the pack is not closed, not by far.. It has stood still pretty much since the beginning of January, though.

You could try maps 25, 26 and 27... VERY cool ideas there.

As for ports, PrBoom will do nicely.

I might go for another map if it takes too long to complete the pack.

[Grazza]

Yes, not dead at all, just resting. I've been pushed for time lately, and got sidetracked by Icarus in what little time I've had.

No rules on which port to use, though using jDoom just for one demo would make the demopack a very large download. ;) A Doom2.exe compatible port would be great, but use whatever you're happy with. Ideally, it would be nice if there aren't multiple versions of the same port used for different demos in the pack, since that would make it quite difficult to watch them one after the other.