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purist

Progressive Fiction (Hadephobia now on /idgames)

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I liked it from the early draft but I have a particular soft spot for it now I've done some work on it. It will also contrast well against your MAP17 too.

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I think that map 17 is finished till we start full wad tests.

well... after the misaligned textures on in the yellow key hallway are fixed (they are to the left right after you enter it).

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Nice. I'll fix that then put it in the megawad and upload the new beta.

Tonight I'll do some testing for MAP30.

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I made you wait enough for this. Depuis this more than half-a-year, many decisions were made and realised/cancelled. The map that was willing to be small and simply hard turned to a monster that would take even Sindrom11 more than 25 minutes to complete.

It would still contain loads of flaws, since I've only tested it 117 times instead of the standard-required 120. But I consider this done. I consider this a whole creation of mine, maybe the zenit of my mapping career, even overdoing Five Places E1M9: Cybernetic Apartment.

It had survived 17 system crashes of mine, and I spent 4 entire days altogether to corrige or redo all the errors or outtaken data lost in the blue eternity of the Hard Drives, Error Screen and Matrix.

Started on a hot Monday afternoon, 09. 05. 2011., and finished on this cold Saturday night, 26. 11. 2011., it took 201 days to be already completed. Since then, I'd been taking my end-of-year exams, participating in an unforgettable school excursion, living the birth of the summer vacation, going to Spain during that, then mourning the end of summer and starting the new term in school, organising one of the events and - only two weeks earlier by now - celebrating my 19th birthday.

It was all during the slow, but certain construction of the twenty-sixth map of Hadephobia.wad which was my last mapslot in the entire megawad, along with MAP02: Storage Basement, MAP07: Deadly Exploitation, MAP13: Metal Territory, MAP19: Satan's Fortress, and now, after all these long dramatising minutes and speeches of mine to celebrate the end of my WAD compilation along with my #1000 forum post I'm glad to introduce MAP26: Predestined Mortality.

Of course you shouldn't consider that this lyric-dramatic memento means that I've finally done with everything that has to do about Progressive Fiction Community Project, Team Progfic and Hadephobia.wad. Since I've asked community leader purist about whether we can do final changes to our maps, I'm willing to corrige numerous visual flaws and other stuff that playtesters would complain about.

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After that introduction I had to have a go! Here's my FDA

Watch it, it's the best feedback I can give. I only got as far as the hole in the ground the headlines from my testing so far is:

  • I ran into several ammo problems and would have appreciated the SSG earlier.
  • Most areas were so narrow I sometimes could not avoid projectiles. It is annoying to take damage in this way.
  • Also because of the tight spaces some monsters movement was also restricted so it felt like you were fighting them in single file.
  • A couple of areas seem to have been designed with mouselook in mind because you had to fight monsters from above on a ledge at an angle to steep to see them.
  • The map looks beautifully detailed and texturing is impeccable as always.
  • Maybe because it was because I'd played before but I never really felt lost like I worried I might.
  • I'm looking forward to proceeding and providing more notes.
  • I like the music
  • The story is OK. It gets lost in translation in points but the theme fits nicely with the megawad narrative.

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It looks like we're getting close to having at least a first draft of all of the maps. What's left now, maps 24 and 32? I've not had time for Doom these last few days but will have to give maps 17 and 26 a go tomorrow and give some feedback on those. Looking forward to playing Cell's magnum opus.

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purist said:

  • I ran into several ammo problems and would have appreciated the SSG earlier.
  • Most areas were so narrow I sometimes could not avoid projectiles. It is annoying to take damage in this way.
  • Also because of the tight spaces some monsters movement was also restricted so it felt like you were fighting them in single file.
  • A couple of areas seem to have been designed with mouselook in mind because you had to fight monsters from above on a ledge at an angle to steep to see them.
  • The map looks beautifully detailed and texturing is impeccable as always.
  • Maybe because it was because I'd played before but I never really felt lost like I worried I might.
  • I'm looking forward to proceeding and providing more notes.
  • I like the music
  • The story is OK. It gets lost in translation in points but the theme fits nicely with the megawad narrative.

  • I see your point, it's mostly because you might have crossed the waterfall immediately, omitting those extra little ammo pickups in the cracks.
  • During my playthrough time of MAP19 using Prboom+, I didn't experience whether obstacles block projectiles in that port or not. Maybe that's why the Hell Knight would have almost owned you in the Plutonic crossroads. The vents are, however, designed for Lost Souls and Sergeants, combined with the chaingun, are not that moral. The Cacodemon is the only threat that might scratch you if you are not careful enough - still, I've always managed to kill him with less than 14 units of health loss.
  • I had to. It was just about predestining mortality even more if I didn't do so.
  • Mostly, monsters overdone my perception. Valinly I've deafened all monsters at the feet of the first steeper staircase next to the droning refineries, it was inefficient. I don't consider the farthest basement as a major fault, as I've always taken them out with little risk and pain level.
  • You should have got familiar with my fetishy aesthetism by now...
  • I wish you weren't alone in this point. I've already imagined people cursing all my ascendants, looking for the solution and then suddenly getting owned by Barons of Hell.
  • Try not to make me wait too long! My timetable is fulfilled as usual.
  • I've forgotten to represent details. It's Mark Anthony Klem's "Give in with Pleasure", right from Memento Mori II MAP03. I've chosen song because it fits in both the technologic and hadistic fort's themes and environment.
  • I don't wonder it. Despite learning English for the ninth year, my knowledge still suffer from stylistic faults that make it be an individual, broken kind of "Engrish". As for the story, I've redirected it so many times since May to be the most appropriate and precise, also fitting in the story that I don't even remember, what kinds of bětises were in the very-first variant of that!

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Melon said:

It looks like we're getting close to having at least a first draft of all of the maps. What's left now, maps 24 and 32?


Yeah, status of the outstanding maps:

  • MAP17 is pretty much done, pending anything you find in playtesting.
  • MAP18 has had a full draft but NoneeLlama is bugfixing from my playtest notes.
  • MAP24 is, I think, the only map I've not seen any version of yet.
  • MAP26 is in playtesting and might yet require some fixes.
  • MAP30 is also in playtesting but you've got texturing work to do regardless of any other issues.
  • MAP32 is still being worked on but I've got a part-finished version of the map.

Melon said:

I've not had time for Doom these last few days but will have to give maps 17 and 26 a go tomorrow and give some feedback on those. Looking forward to playing Cell's magnum opus.


Cool, demos are welcome as always!

Cell said

  • I see your point, it's mostly because you might have crossed the waterfall immediately, omitting those extra little ammo pickups in the cracks.
  • During my playthrough time of MAP19 using Prboom+, I didn't experience whether obstacles block projectiles in that port or not. Maybe that's why the Hell Knight would have almost owned you in the Plutonic crossroads. The vents are, however, designed for Lost Souls and Sergeants, combined with the chaingun, are not that moral. The Cacodemon is the only threat that might scratch you if you are not careful enough - still, I've always managed to kill him with less than 14 units of health loss.
  • I had to. It was just about predestining mortality even more if I didn't do so.
  • Mostly, monsters overdone my perception. Valinly I've deafened all monsters at the feet of the first steeper staircase next to the droning refineries, it was inefficient. I don't consider the farthest basement as a major fault, as I've always taken them out with little risk and pain level.
  • You should have got familiar with my fetishy aesthetism by now...
  • I wish you weren't alone in this point. I've already imagined people cursing all my ascendants, looking for the solution and then suddenly getting owned by Barons of Hell.
  • Try not to make me wait too long! My timetable is fulfilled as usual.
  • I've forgotten to represent details. It's Mark Anthony Klem's "Give in with Pleasure", right from Memento Mori II MAP03. I've chosen song because it fits in both the technologic and hadistic fort's themes and environment.
  • I don't wonder it. Despite learning English for the ninth year, my knowledge still suffer from stylistic faults that make it be an individual, broken kind of "Engrish". As for the story, I've redirected it so many times since May to be the most appropriate and precise, also fitting in the story that I don't even remember, what kinds of b├Čtises were in the very-first variant of that!

  • I don't think 4 shells and an ammo clip would have helped against the baron and imps I ran dry against in my last playthrough. The first problem is at the PE/arachnatron where you need to go into the room to get the shell box. If you get blocked off you will run out. Perhaps I could have used the bezerk more. I'll try that next time.
  • Have you watched the demo? The worst points was the HK and revs.
  • I honestly don't know what that means.
  • You should continue seeking solutions. There little worse than losing health to something you cannot see.
  • I am, but the efforts you go to continue to impress me.
  • We'll see but it's always harded navigating a map with no monsters in so now it's populated it should be easier.
  • Well, I have to playtest MAP30 first. Melon uploaded before you. But I'm sure Melon will provide useful notes for you.
  • It's a nice choice. Did you have permission?
  • Don't worry, I might fix some of the grammar but I won't change the events.

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1. I really made it depending on wise ammo economisation rather than luck. Also, what kind of Baron? The very first, even in UV, appears in the background refinery section.

2. No, I didn't, because ZDoom couldn't do anything with it. As for even the testing of MAP19 for PrBoom+, I've borrowed my friend's laptop because back then in the time, when I was only attempting to create playable maps, I accidentally modified both the UD and the D2 IWAD, therefore PrBoom+ is unable to play them. Crap. Now the friend of mine gone abroad and I'm not willing to repurchase the IWADS.

3. Forget about it. I accidentally made the line in front of the gothic entrance blocking, because I was fed up with the Caco ceaselessly opening it and awakening all those shit-eaters inside before I wanted to do so. Then, I got the solution marking the door linedef as a secret one, but I forgot to "unblock" the other.

4. Maybe I didn't deafen the Imps, I just remember doing it - wrongly of course.

5. Subscribe for the Doom2 Megawad "Going Cellistics" previsioned to a release date of 2017 or so. That would be a nasty masterpiece of mine overdoing every of my previous works.

6. I'm curiously waiting your feedback on the "two gargoyles and a shoot" doortrick. I made it be more obvious (mappers should know that G stands for Gunfire actions). As for the other signs: hope players would understand that explosion means that them barrels would also explode and provide the hole in the ground.

7. Of course I'm waiting his feedback, too.

8. I did, but Klem and Tolwyn both stated that one could use them even without permission. Still, my conscience lurked around and made me ask him whether he's OK with it. He agreed.

9. I can sleep with tranquility then.

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Melon, I've completed MAP30. No demo I'm afraid. I needed my saves. Many saves :-)

Notes

  • It would be nice to be able to revisit the start area to get those medikits after you're done with the first big battle.
  • I can't figure out how to get to the invulnerability secret. Will you spill the beans?
  • What's the intention with the fight involving the first cyberdemon? At first I thought it was a cool, slightly convoluted infight setup but the AVs weren't killing the cyb so I looked it up in the wiki and found their attack only deals 20 HP damage to cybs due to them being invulnerable to blast damage.
  • The treble AV fight is great. My favourite part of the map.
  • There are few gameplay comments for me to make since there's no real issues. The only problem I have with the gameplay is that it doesn't feel like a last level or boss map. For a community project with the goal of having the map structure of a personal project this is a real shame. More so that the map is perfectly setup for a race against time in the spirit of Lunatic. You are on a planet about to be consumed by Hell in a compound with an evacuation spaceship ready to go. I know it's unhelpful of me to raise it at this stage but, in the absence of any nit-picks, it's what nags at me most about the level. I think players will have fun with the map but I worry the megawad will end on a bit of a flat note.
  • You can go ahead and texture/detail the map now :-) I'll give you aesthetic critique when you're done.
  • Don't forget the story and to find the music source. In the story you might want to note why the player doesn't try to board the airbourne spaceship. Perhaps it took off too early.
  • I don't believe you've named the map. May I suggest Hadephobia or Fear of Hell as fitting for the finale in the megawad and also with the fact you're fleeing - not fighting Hell.
@Cell:

1. The baron and imps you face when you drop down the hole.

2. The fact you don't playtest in PRBoom+ explains a few things. The monsters below the ledge wouldn't be an issue with mouselook and the ammo shortage eased by the ZDoom blockmap fix.

I will playtest MAP26 in full next. I hopefully will be done this time next week.

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Well it looks like I didn't have time to play much at all today, but I did have a go at Cell's MAP26, prioritizing it over MAP17 because Cell said it fits his situation to have feedback sooner rather than later. As usual I attach an ]FDA but I didn't get too far, I wanted to leave time to watch purist's demo too so I wouldn't repeat any points. The furthest I got was the vents where I died to the cacodemon.

The comments I have so far are pretty much identical to purist's comments, but I'd like to reiterate a few points because I think they're important.

  • Ammo. I would currently consider the low ammo situation to be "critical", it's really low. A shell box near the start of the level would be nice. I get what you're going for with the sheer tightness of ammo, but always being on the verge of running out made the level feel a bit less fun for me, and sometimes made me feel like I was having my weapon choices dictated to me rather than letting me choose. It's also worth noting that in prBoom+ that this wad is designed for, the BLOCKMAP bug means that in certain situations a number of your hitscan shots will not actually hit, making the ammo situation even worse.
  • Picking up the green armour before the arachnotron/mancubus fight is quite awkward, could we get it without needing to jump from the staricase?
  • I died against a cacodemon in a 32-unit wide corridor with the entrance closed behind me. My only chance of survival felt like it entirely rested on my invisibility randomly making the caco miss. He didn't. I'm really sorry but that fight just feels unfair. It made me feel like the death was not due to a lack of skill but luck.
  • I was impressed by your sheer attention to detail and some cool ideas you had for detailing the level.
@ purist:

purist said:

It would be nice to be able to revisit the start area to get those medikits after you're done with the first big battle.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say no to letting you return to the opening ammo cache because I don't want players starting with ammo from the previous level to stock up even further on ammo. As a compromise, a previous draft of that level had two extra medikits in the opening fight within easy reach, would you prefer if I put these back in? Or maybe add a bit more health on the higher floor after the fight?

purist said:

I can't figure out how to get to the invulnerability secret. Will you spill the beans?

Archville jump. I like the way that getting the invulnerability gives a bit of a trade off against your health for the remiander of that area, but I can add in another way to reach it for people who like to mop up all of the secrets later on if you'd prefer. I don't want it to interfere with the triple archville fight though. Hmmmm......

purist said:

What's the intention with the fight involving the first cyberdemon? At first I thought it was a cool, slightly convoluted infight setup but the AVs weren't killing the cyb so I looked it up in the wiki and found their attack only deals 20 HP damage to cybs due to them being invulnerable to blast damage.

The intent is mainly to use the cyberdemon to neuter the impact of the respawning chaingunners while you try to pick off the archvilles, and then before you finish knock out the cyber while he's distracted. Ultimately you're trying to conserve as much ammo as you can by letting the cyberdemon take out the front wave of chaingunners that are too dangerous for you to take head on to avoid having to spam away all your rockets.

purist said:

There are few gameplay comments for me to make since there's no real issues. The only problem I have with the gameplay is that it doesn't feel like a last level or boss map. For a community project with the goal of having the map structure of a personal project this is a real shame. More so that the map is perfectly setup for a race against time in the spirit of Lunatic. You are on a planet about to be consumed by Hell in a compound with an evacuation spaceship ready to go. I know it's unhelpful of me to raise it at this stage but, in the absence of any nit-picks, it's what nags at me most about the level. I think players will have fun with the map but I worry the megawad will end on a bit of a flat note.

I agree completely with this and was worried that it was going to be a disappointing ending. I've had an idea though, at the end of the level, have the big outdoor area be a huge final fight to get a key to open the spaceship. I'm not sure if I could make a boss fight as I don't want to end this project on a generic Icon of Sin, but going out with a bang could work. I'll try some things out and see how it goes. It's worth keeping in mind that teleport traps like the final level of Lunatic are a no go because all of the monsters would telefrag each other, which greatly restricts what I can actually do.

purist said:

I don't believe you've named the map. May I suggest Hadephobia or Fear of Hell as fitting for the finale in the megawad and also with the fact you're fleeing - not fighting Hell.

Oh yeah whoops. Hadephobia is a good suggestion, lets go with that.

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Regarding the final area, let's put our heads together or even have a community discussion since, if we want to be dramatic, it is the culmination of everyone's work.

I agree about avoiding an IoS battle. I'm not adverse to having a custom monster for the boss. The Nazi sprites are unused so can be overwritten in DeHacked if need be...

Alternatively, couldn't a countdown clock theoretically be done using voodoo scripts?

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I know you can time events using a voodoo doll and conveyour belt, I meant a visual representation of a clock.

Could a digital clock display be created on the floor or ceiling using lighting effects? Or if not a specific timer, something more primitive like a row of columns that drop in intervals to signify time lost. Where only one column is remaining the player would know they had better move fast.

Also, Melon - forgot to mention. Don't worry about the medikits or invulnerability secret. Your explanations suffice.

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purist said:

I know you can time events using a voodoo doll and conveyour belt, I meant a visual representation of a clock.

Could a digital clock display be created on the floor or ceiling using lighting effects? Or if not a specific timer, something more primitive like a row of columns that drop in intervals to signify time lost. Where only one column is remaining the player would know they had better move fast.

Also, Melon - forgot to mention. Don't worry about the medikits or invulnerability secret. Your explanations suffice.


I know Hell to Pay's MAP32 has a 10 minute timer that counts down by the minute before killing the player (self-destruct). The timer actually appears a lot in that map so the player always has an idea of how much time he has left.

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Cool, thanks Grain of Salt that might come in useful. 10 minutes might be a bit tight for the whole map at present but we could either shorten the map/gameplay, start/introduce the timer part way through the map or change the length of the timer.

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Hey sorry for the absence these past few days.

Putting the level on a timer is an interesting idea and I wouldn't be opposed to it. Grain of Salt's clock is pretty cool, although I'd personally prefer a wall mounted one if it were possible (would be easily doable with custom textures, but the wad has been designed without them so far).

If we go the custom boss route, does anybody know of any good ones?

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I come bearing ]demos of MAP17. I didn't want to double-post but sod it.

That zip contains not one, not two, but three demo attempts done at different times. The first one isn't really all that interesting as I was tired while playing and got nowhere.

My comments:

  • There's a pinky demon on some blue stairs near the start that can't go down them, this allows you to use him to block the revenants and baron behind him and encourage them to infight while you remain perfectly safe. I'd suggest removing that demon.
  • I'd personally move the SSG slightly so it's more visible, and definitely move it off of the medikit because it forces you to pick up the medikit which can feel like a waste sometimes.
  • Blue armour secret is hardly secret but I think it works out OK. Maybe make the switch a repeatable door that closes so you have to at least run to it?
  • The door frames of this compartment should be lower unpegged on the inside, the metal slides up with the door and looks a bit silly. There's also a texture misalignment on the green brick where the blue armour is (not pictured).
  • The cyberdemon fight is awesome, the PG is in a really dangerous position but I think that's great. I also played this level on the other two difficulty levels afterwards (not recorded) and on HMP some revenants and an archville teleported in. Are they supposed to teleport in on UV too? They made the fight way more difficult and personally I prefer the fight without them.
  • The blue key trap seemed trivially avoidable. Did something go wrong? The mancubi took ages to teleport in.
  • In the final outdoor area monsters kept getting stuck on the bars that lower and raise (the shotgun guys in the picture can't move or fire).
  • Aside from swapping the cyberdemon with an archville on easy, I wasn't really feeling like the other difficulty levels were much different in some places.
This size of this list probably gives the impression that things are worse than they really are, the level is solid and enjoyable.

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Well, yes and no. The gameplay is there but it needs some texturing in places and we're wondering if something can be done to make it a bit more like a final level instead of a regular level. Any comments are appreciated with regards to this or the level as it stands now.

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Melon said:

I come bearing ]demos of MAP17. I didn't want to double-post but sod it.

That zip contains not one, not two, but three demo attempts done at different times. The first one isn't really all that interesting as I was tired while playing and got nowhere.

My comments:

  • There's a pinky demon on some blue stairs near the start that can't go down them, this allows you to use him to block the revenants and baron behind him and encourage them to infight while you remain perfectly safe. I'd suggest removing that demon.
  • I'd personally move the SSG slightly so it's more visible, and definitely move it off of the medikit because it forces you to pick up the medikit which can feel like a waste sometimes.
  • Blue armour secret is hardly secret but I think it works out OK. Maybe make the switch a repeatable door that closes so you have to at least run to it?
  • The door frames of this compartment should be lower unpegged on the inside, the metal slides up with the door and looks a bit silly. There's also a texture misalignment on the green brick where the blue armour is (not pictured).
  • The cyberdemon fight is awesome, the PG is in a really dangerous position but I think that's great. I also played this level on the other two difficulty levels afterwards (not recorded) and on HMP some revenants and an archville teleported in. Are they supposed to teleport in on UV too? They made the fight way more difficult and personally I prefer the fight without them.
  • The blue key trap seemed trivially avoidable. Did something go wrong? The mancubi took ages to teleport in.
  • In the final outdoor area monsters kept getting stuck on the bars that lower and raise (the shotgun guys in the picture can't move or fire).
  • Aside from swapping the cyberdemon with an archville on easy, I wasn't really feeling like the other difficulty levels were much different in some places.
This size of this list probably gives the impression that things are worse than they really are, the level is solid and enjoyable.


It was fun watching your demos. A shame you never finished though. I agree with all your points. To answer them in turn:

  • I've removed that demon and replaced the next two that also cannot get down stairs with imps.
  • Moved the SSG near the dead sergeant. Makes sense there.
  • Yeah, I'm rubbish at secrets. The blue armour doesn't break the gameplay by any means though so it's OK. I made the switch repeatable like you suggested to add a slight degree of challenge.
  • That was originally going to lead to another secret. I abandoned that idea but forgot to re-align. Fixed that and lower unpegged the metal door sides.
  • On HMP the AV/Revs are supposed to be instead of the Cyb. Crossed wires in the demon warp tunnels. Fixed that now.
  • That trap only really works if the player fires at the revs before going up the stairs as the mancs don't warp till then. It's not been setup that way on purpose - they're supposed to already be awake and warp in as soon as the key is picked up. I'll try to fix it.
  • They don't start on those bars. The switches at either end of that area lower/wait/raise the bars at their opposite end. Sometimes the monsters on the other side of the bars try to walk through and get stuck when the bars pop back up.
  • There are changes in difficulty levels throughout but only to mid-tier monsters and above. Imps, demons and zombies are all the same in every skill since they're never in large groups or a big threat. I've done some changes though so it should be more noticiable in the next version.
I'm glad you liked it overall, it's one of my favourites in the megawad.

Re: MAP30. I've not forgotten about our considerations. I'm not too hot on custom monsters and how they fit into dehacked. My thought was to browse Realm 666 for sprites and (with consent & credit) apply attributes as close to the original behaviour as best we see fit. I've had a quick look and Thamuz, Arachnophyte, Demolisher, Annihilator, Incubus, Terminator and Hectebus all look contenders.

The countdown, I think, will only work if it starts closer to the end of the level (from the triple cyb fight or a new end area). You'd need to re-work the gameplay completely if the player was racing against time.

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Just posting to say I've not forgot about MAP26. I've playtested it some more and got quite a way past the red key door. Most of my points apply to the level in general.

- The earlier notes made by Melon and I still stand. More ammo (at least 50% more, maybe even double) is essential pretty much throughout and the SSG from the start would speed up some of the slower-paced fights.

- Almost every fight involving a monster with higher HP than a demon was in an area too small to have fun in. The exception to this was the roomy library/wooden area with several Mancs in and the Baron/Demon fight in the area you teleport to. The offending areas either need expanding or the bigger monsters replaced my zombies or imps. Both monsters and players are critically impeded by the lack of space and it results in very linnear battles.

- The first 2 AV battles I came across were almost unplayable. The first I only got past by hiding behind the rising rocks and provoking it to infight with the rev and HK, taking pot shots at it when I got a decent line of view between a crack in the rock. Not fun. The second one, which teleported on the raised rock was impossible as I'd ran out of ammo. Both need replacing or reworking completely. The first one could work if the area with the raised rock was expanded to allow the player more room to move and the second one would be helped with a RL and more rockets and cells.

- Health is too scarce considering the tightness of most areas means you're guaranteed to take damage. Armour is almost non-existence. Both need a boost.

- Things have improved as the map has progressed so I hope this is going to continue being the case but I've twice had to cheat (once due to the AV fight mentioned earlier, another IDDQD/IDDQD due to a lack of health) and I've had to save after almost every fight. From where I've saved I will have to cheat at least once more due to being down to bezerk/chainsaw with a Baron and Arachnatron to fight.

- I see this map being a problem for both demo runners and co-op players due to being a long map but with narrow, linear gameplay and frugal resources.

I appreciate Cell has put a lot of work into this, rather beautiful, map and it might feel like you have to butcher your map to implement my suggestions but if it goes in the megawad as it is I'm certain there will be a lot of complaints about the gameplay. Melon found the same points as me so I'm not alone on these issues.

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Oh purist, in unrelated news, your MAP20 is ]easily skippable. Not sure if you're already aware of this "exploit" or not.

In MAP30 news, I've still been thinking about what I can do to MAP30 to make it a more suitable end level. At the moment my best thought is to just make an entirely new map, I'm happy with the way the current MAP30 is as a whole and trying to change some part of it to make it more suitable for the map slot isn't lying too well with me. My current plan is to have the player run through a ruined city while monster spawners like the one in MAP20 are spewing monsters everywhere, but you don't kill them, you're only aim is to get on a ship to escape.

I'll try to map something out and you can see what you think. Maybe it's an odd idea to suggest replacing a largely finished level entirely, but it's not like I haven't done that before (I remember the first draft of MAP28 was done in about 2 days after scrapping the initial plan for it entirely, such is the way I do things).

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Watched the demo. Easily fixable but, like you are with MAP30, I'm considering replacing the map anyway. I like the concept but the execution could be better and it's ugly.

I suppose I have to reluctantly agree with you about MAP30. I didn't want to suggest replacing the map because I quite like it and it's not the sort of thing you want to impose on a fellow author. What I suggest is that you try a new map with your concept being foremost in your mind and we'll see how it comes out. There's no massive rush and we will still have your original version if the new one doesn't work out.

Boss maps are hard aren't they?

Your new concept makes sense with the story as a whole. Maybe I will need to change the end of MAP29 though since the ship is right there... that's a shame for me, but I will do it if it pays off overall. I expect the main challenge you will have on this is directing the player. There will have to be some intuitive way for the player to know it should not be attacking the Icon of Sin for example. Is this going to be timer based also by the way?

I'm more than happy to discuss this in detail with you. It might help me if I decide to re-make MAP20.

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You shouldn't really need to take away the spaceship from the end of your map, my thinking is that it's already in flight so you'll need to catch one that isn't.

There's not going to be a hard timer on the level because respawning monsters provide their own incentive to move on. Eventually you'd just run out of resources.

I'll try to "speedmap" an example layout as soon as I can in the busy lead-up to Christmas and we'll see how it plays. If we do end up replacing the previous MAP30 in it's entirely then it's no big deal, we can easily hold the map in "reserve" in case a map slot needs a last minute replacement or whatever, and if it's ultimately never used I'll just release it as a standalone.

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As I PM'd the community leader about it, I'll redo MAP26 in a more elegant way. This long-paced nasty piece of aesthetism just doesn't seem to play well for average Boom-port Doomers who we make this project for.

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