Switcheroom 2 - Alpha 2

walter confalonieri said:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/54lrb3bblazal63/Switcheroom_2_-_Alpha_2.zip

here we go... is still the last alpha without the fixed maps...

Some maps seem to be fixed, what do you mean?

I mean that the maps we fixed recently aren't in the main compilation....

I made an alpha 3: Features new midis, map fixes, updates, difficulties and placement and level title namings with graphics, all what's left to do is to add a .deh file and a make text file to IDgames and new graphics for M_DOOM TITLEPIC CREDITS BOSSBACK and INTERPIC.
Replaced "Evil Church" with a map I made.(picture)

Link : https://www.mediafire.com/?dbglw72wswdw30t

The project rules stated that nobody's map would be modified without their permission - that alone invalidates your effort, because I don't believe you've got those permissions, considering you haven't even contacted me that you're going to do anything with files of this project - so, you definitely didn't get permission to do such things as replacing maps, replacing midis or renaming maps to your likings, either.

Alright, Switcheroom went to development hell due to lack of interest of everybody - players, mappers, leaders - and it's my fault the most. But joe-ilya, you can't take over the project that way, it's a betray not only to me, but to all the participants too.

Development of this project WILL be revived, and it will be revived PROPERLY, that is, with regards to the rules that were set at the beginning. This is all I can say for now, sorry.

Is it that bad? All I did was add difficulty settings and fix maps, with your approach you don't have to develop anything but submit the wad to IDgames and consider it done since you can't modify anything without premission of otherwise inactive mappers.

After playing through the project I did post quite a bit of feedback, though aside from cannonball I'm not sure if anything was changed. (Not that anything HAS to be changed based on one person's feedback of course)

The most pertinent issues that I don't believe were addressed are:

Map 15 - The ambushes are fairly harsh. They need either toning down or more health/armour added.

Map 28 - This needs a serious rework because it's actually easier than the original. It has less monsters and less threatening monsters. Even if you move it to the earliest point in the last episode it is still way too easy.

Map 29 - Like 28, this also needs a rework. I don't think it's a particularly good map to have as the penultimate one in terms of layout, though the main issues are the lack of secrets and how easy it is.

Map 30 - Needs a MegaSphere at the start and there are too many AVs, especially in the 4 AV + Revenants ambush.

23 and 25 are good maps to go in 28 and 29 as they stand, but 28/29 both need reworking regardless of where they end up.

scifista42 said:

The project rules stated that nobody's map would be modified without their permission - that alone invalidates your effort, because I don't believe you've got those permissions, considering you haven't even contacted me that you're going to do anything with files of this project - so, you definitely didn't get permission to do such things as replacing maps, replacing midis or renaming maps to your likings, either.

Alright, Switcheroom went to development hell due to lack of interest of everybody - players, mappers, leaders - and it's my fault the most. But joe-ilya, you can't take over the project that way, it's a betray not only to me, but to all the participants too.

Development of this project WILL be revived, and it will be revived PROPERLY, that is, with regards to the rules that were set at the beginning. This is all I can say for now, sorry.

I was expecting something like that... it's a shame that this project derailed after all the work we had to do (similar to the fate of UDINO imo), but maybe a megawad release with our modified maps without the joe-ilya stuff (that I think it was helpful in some way... even without the full knowledge of the rules, he just wants to be helpful to this project). I also known that you (scifista42) are also work on compiling the dmp 2015 megawad and maybe some other projects...

degree23 said:

After playing through the project I did post quite a bit of feedback, though aside from cannonball I'm not sure if anything was changed. (Not that anything HAS to be changed based on one person's feedback of course)

The most pertinent issues that I don't believe were addressed are:

Map 15 - The ambushes are fairly harsh. They need either toning down or more health/armour added.

Map 28 - This needs a serious rework because it's actually easier than the original. It has less monsters and less threatening monsters. Even if you move it to the earliest point in the last episode it is still way too easy.

Map 29 - Like 28, this also needs a rework. I don't think it's a particularly good map to have as the penultimate one in terms of layout, though the main issues are the lack of secrets and how easy it is.

Map 30 - Needs a MegaSphere at the start and there are too many AVs, especially in the 4 AV + Revenants ambush.

23 and 25 are good maps to go in 28 and 29 as they stand, but 28/29 both need reworking regardless of where they end up.

This I basically agree with this. However MAP21. I've said a couple times needs to be reworked bad because. There's way too many unfair moments. Especially the damaging floor at the beginning. What if you don't have enough health on continuous to get past the very beginning?

BTW I did go back and re-texture some of the ugliness of the map for the next official Alpha release.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/gs25nnbe3fckhfc/Vanilla+23.wad

scifista42 said:

The project rules stated that nobody's map would be modified without their permission - that alone invalidates your effort, because I don't believe you've got those permissions, considering you haven't even contacted me that you're going to do anything with files of this project - so, you definitely didn't get permission to do such things as replacing maps, replacing midis or renaming maps to your likings, either.

Alright, Switcheroom went to development hell due to lack of interest of everybody - players, mappers, leaders - and it's my fault the most. But joe-ilya, you can't take over the project that way, it's a betray not only to me, but to all the participants too.

Development of this project WILL be revived, and it will be revived PROPERLY, that is, with regards to the rules that were set at the beginning. This is all I can say for now, sorry.

You said that the maps won't be modified against the mappers will, not anything permission related.

So you're just going to ignore my hard work just because it's not official? Stupid excuse.

joe-ilya said:

You said that the maps won't be modified against the mappers will, not anything permission related.

The original rules (still at the bottom of the OP, now spoilered) literally said:
-When your map is done, post it in the thread. No changes will be made to it without your permission, you may only receive a criticism about compliance to the rules, and may be asked to rework it.

joe-ilya said:

So you're just going to ignore my hard work... ?

Yes, and the reason is that you made decisions and did actions on your own that:
-weren't approved by anybody in the first place
-resulted in a wad that broke the explicit project rules
-some of them were of the kind that belonged to the respective map authors to do, and the map authors might disagree with them if only they knew
-some of them were of the kind that belonged to the project manager to do, and I disagree with them

scifista42 said:

The original rules (still at the bottom of the OP, now spoilered) literally said:
-When your map is done, post it in the thread. No changes will be made to it without your permission, you may only receive a criticism about compliance to the rules, and may be asked to rework it.

But these are old rules, you've put new ones on the top; so I didn't break any rules making that recompilation. Seeing how you've finally came back, do what you want.

You shouldn't need a rule to tell you it's not okay to mess with other people's maps, unless they've explicitly given permission to do so, or the project rules specifically say that any submitted maps are open to outside editing. It's just even more egregious when there was a specific rule against it in the original project rules.

The fact that it was listed under "old rules" doesn't mean it went away just because the project shifted into another phase with new rules.

I do think you're trying to be helpful and get this out, but making unilateral changes to it without even asking or discussing it when you aren't the project leader isn't the way to do it. Yes, it sucks that the project has lapsed considerably, but that's how it goes sometimes (and scifista42 is still around here all the time, so there's no reason to think the project has been abandoned and is up for grabs). Better to stick to common decency and respecting the rules and other people's work.

Magnusblitz said:

Better to stick to common decency and respecting the rules and other people's work.

Just how 'Jaws in space' treated my map in 'Bloody rust'; by removing it.

I'm noticing a trend with joe-ilya and negative attention on community projects.

Does this always happen?

If I wouldn't recompile this wad, scifista would probably forget about this community project forever, and now he says that I can't do that recompilation and that he'll do something soon.

The fact that he ignored this thread for several months got me thinking.

walter confalonieri said:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/54lrb3bblazal63/Switcheroom_2_-_Alpha_2.zip

here we go... is still the last alpha without the fixed maps...

Would any testing be useful or are you waiting for (an official) third alpha?

Yeah, for me it could be good to test this, together with the latest map fixes (they're in this and the previous page), but in the end we have to heard the scifista42 words about this....

Well maybe a good idea, rather than debating the merit's of joe's efforts, would be to pull together some sort of "to do" list based on the feedback that's been given by the various people who played the WAD or maps within it. Then those points can be addressed or ignored depending on general consensus, or what scifista wants to do. I posted quite a bit, though the summary of what I felt the most important things to address is a few posts up.

I basically followed feedback from other playtesters including myself.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/nt4w4wwim091vmr/swrm18_rdwpa_fda.lmp

Started off good, but AVs ended up being huge timesinks. The first AV ended up reviving a bunch of stuff and mostly eating up time and providing ammo I guess. Most egregious was an AV that wakes up at the bottom of a pit; all you can do (unless you know the map) is snipe at it tediously.

And Thus this project gets buried again...

Someone hosted a Zandronum server with my version in it and I had a good run through it with some other people. No bugs found.

sorry for the little bump, but wasn't there a map 18 that became a map 30? i would like a link to that if possible.

the link also died.

Are you ever going to finish this Scifista, & don't tell me that you're waiting to work on this after you upload DWMP2015. All you need for that project is some credits info for the text file, you can easily work on this project while you get the information for DWMP2015.

Pure Hellspawn said:

sorry for the little bump, but wasn't there a map 18 that became a map 30? i would like a link to that if possible.

the link also died.

what link? To the complete project? I've re-uploaded it some months ago and the link still work... i think it must have that map18 as map30 map too, or you're looking for that specific map?

Jaws In Space said:

Are you ever going to finish this Scifista,

See, I'm in a complicated position. On one hand, I detest this project now and don't feel like working on it, especially not alone. On the other hand, I consider it absolutely necessary to let the project be developed and finished only in the spirit of its very original rules. These rules, the rules that people read before even deciding to join the project, among other things, assured mappers that no maps would be modified without their permissions. In my eyes, this is serious business. So, anytime someone suggests to advance the project's development in ways that could lead to violating the rules, I say no.

My idea of properly continuing the project's development is as follows:

1. Let all maps be playtested by at least several people who will identify and report their qualitative flaws, that means not just bugs and errors, but subjectively perceived flaws in the map's design and gameplay as well.
2. (Try to) contact authors of the current maps to make them return to the thread to at least passively participate in the consequent discussion over their map's quality and fate. (Or better, participate actively. Or even better, be willing to work on the maps still.)
3. Based on the playtesting reports, (try to) collectively decide for each map what and how much is needed to improve it. (Note: I will not respect a "collective decision" where only a small fraction of the original mappers participate + a majority of those who do participate are those who clearly oppose the project's rules + their decisions show their bias to change most maps in the project to their likings. If a similar scenario happens, I'll rather decide by myself.)
4. If any map will be decided to be unredeemably bad, it will be rejected and someone should make a new map to take its place.
5. If any map will be decided to be imperfect but redeemable, further course of action will depend on how much tolerable the current map is and whether its author is available and willing to modify it or give somebody else a permission to do so. The possibilities are:
a) The map will be accepted as is.
b) The map will be rejected and someone should make a new map to take its place.
c) The map will be reworked by its author.
d) The map will be reworked by someone who gets explicit permission from the map's original author, but after the rework is done, the map's original author must confirm that he's OK with the changes that were done to the map.
6. Once all maps are decided to be acceptable, the project should be considered finished and be released.

My idea of setting this process into motion is as follows:

1. Somebody could help me with going through all the maps and provide feedback and suggestions for each of them. I'll take part of this playtesting as well, but not alone.
2. Somebody other than Joe and Jaws could let me know that he is still willing to do something for this project.
3. If somebody wants to take over my role in this project, I will agree if and only if the person vows to let the project be developed and finished only in the spirit of its original rules (+being a decent candidate for a project leader in my view).

That's how I feel. Comments are welcome, though, especially from long-inactive mappers who once contributed to this project.

Problem is ; you were doing this for half a year already and got nowhere because you're literally waiting for people with no more interest in finishing this up because of rules you made up.
And lots of people already gave feedback, but you still don't want to modify the maps because you think it's rude somehow, so what's the point in feedback if you can't fix or change anything unless you luckily got permission to do so. (there are mostly inactive mappers in this, when have you last heard of Blue Feena or Torniquet for example?)
And I have no idea what's your role in this project right now, what are you doing now that all maps are done?

My fixes :
MAP01 : Added -nomonsters route that opens up in 5 minutes, all imps in the cages are crushed upon entering the exit room.
MAP05 : Useless stuck spectres are now teleporting everywhere, removed invulnerability, replaced the goofy midi.
MAP06 : Sprawling line of armor bonuses indicating where you can go, exit crate quickly lowers and gets back up upon approach, removed invulnerability, added midi.
MAP07 : Removed first soulsphere "secret", added health at the exit switch for continuous players.
MAP08 : Fixed tutti-fruity glitch, replaced several stuck demons with imps, fixed a HOM and an unfitting marble texture.
MAP09 : Less health and ammo, lights are fixed on the ceiling.
MAP10 : Shotgun is now visible from start POV, added some rad suits, added midi.
MAP11 : Moved player start a little backwards so he'll see the shotgun to the right, added midi.
MAP12 : Soulsphere at start, can't void glide behind exit switch, added midi.
MAP13 : Shitload of changes. (My map)
MAP15 : More ammo and health.
MAP32 : Made the layout uncampable. (my map)
MAP17 : Fixed HOM in nukage, replaced cyberdemon with spider mastermind.
MAP23 : Removed invulnerabilities.
MAP24 : Put more ammo for the people who won't find the secrets.
MAP28 : Replaced an entire map that was hugely turn down by many.
MAP30 : Put a big black arrow pointing towards the otherwise inobvious teleport that gives you way to the right switch to open walls to boss, made final boss more threatning by adding monsters and monster spawners in the same arena.

The rest I either added difficulty levels and/or midi or neither.

Also note that levels are from the order of my own compilation.

joe-ilya said:

you still don't want to modify the maps because you think it's rude somehow

Worse than rude - an actual betray.

joe-ilya said:

what's the point in feedback if you can't fix or change anything unless you luckily got permission to do so.

Explained in my previous post, points 2-5 of the first list. If permission is unobtainable, the map will either stay in unmodified, or get replaced by an entirely new map, depending on the feedback.

joe-ilya said:

My fixes :

Except for your own maps, these "fixes" will be regarded merely as a form of feedback (you showed what you thought that ought to be changed in the maps), but not as serious candidates to replace the original maps in the project.

Another permission-related thing: If anyone intends to actively contact any of the mappers to get a permission to modify his map, then before actually asking for the permission, he should point out the mapper to this thread (specifically these couple of posts here) to let him know how this project's permission rules work, and only after making sure he knows, ask for the permission. In other words, don't obtain permissions via misinformation or pressure or whatever. For any permission obtained privately, I'll investigate if this wasn't the case. Finally: Any mapper who gives a permission will have the right to change his mind and take the permission back anytime.

scifista42 said:

Worse than rude - an actual betray.

It's not that bad if you have good intentions.