Talking to people you don't like

[ClumsyDoomer]

10 hours ago, Noiser said:

How do you expect me to react? These people literally want me dead for being a "sub-human" in their eyes.

No one wants you literally dead, very unlikely you're that special. Immediate attack without prior conflict is what i certainly don't expect from a human. Stand up for yourself when needed, that's what i do and what i'd expect from a respectable opponent of any sort. Perhaps i live in a better country, lol.

I'm very straightforward and hostile with my wording irl. You could say my temper is flawed, but it never got to an actual fight. There were several cases when a dude seemed to desire one, but when i made a step forward, he suddenly changed his attitude. Sad, i'm always up for one but have both respect and self-respect. Most people don't live up to their "values", often to their own said words too.

Btw, talking and communicating is an investment. Takes time and emotional resource, which isn't infinite. You can't talk with everyone.

[mrthejoshmon]

Back when I was a young lad growing up in England, people would say they were Nazis in school as a joke.

 

The crux of the joke was there was nobody more irredeemable yet thankfully extinct, they didn't exist anymore because why the fuck would they? As I grew older, it was slowly realised that making the joke wasn't actually that funny, because those boogeymen weren't extinct, despite how ludicrous the idea of Nazis still running around was, they were real.

 

I remember seeing an interview with a neo Nazi and being absolutely blown away that these cretins got dicked so hard into the dirt, were objectively the villain and you could actively mock them by just pretending they still exist (as the very existence of a Nazi in modern times was ridiculous) just to find out that, no, they're still running around.

 

What a sad existence being a Nazi must be, literally inconceivable that they dare to exist.

[Merry Widow]

If I don't like someone, I don't talk to that person. But that's only if they try to pull some crap. I'm not a trusting person. 

[Noiser]

2 hours ago, ClumsyDoomer said:

Immediate attack without prior conflict is what i certainly don't expect from a human. Stand up for yourself when needed, that's what i do and what i'd expect from a respectable opponent of any sort. Perhaps i live in a better country, lol.

I'm very straightforward and hostile with my wording irl. You could say my temper is flawed, but it never got to an actual fight. There were several cases when a dude seemed to desire one, but when i made a step forward, he suddenly changed his attitude. Sad, i'm always up for one but have both respect and self-respect. Most people don't live up to their "values", often to their own said words too.

I can't deal with this level of ignorance. Nazism should not be tolerated in any case or situation and if you are complacent with it, you are part of the problem.

[ChopBlock223]

12 minutes ago, Noiser said:

I can't deal with this level of ignorance. Nazism should not be tolerated in any case or situation and if you are complacent with it, you are part of the problem.

Yeah! I'm confident OP really changed the heart and mind of this special ed Nazi junkie ex-con!

[ClumsyDoomer]

15 minutes ago, Noiser said:

you are part of the problem

 Perfect example of "communication breakdown". Is the problem in the room with you? Or it's just a bunch of letters and pictures on the screen? 

[Rudolph]

3 hours ago, ClumsyDoomer said:

No one wants you literally dead

Yes, they do. Even if they are themselves in no position to physically threaten us, they will still either implicitly or explicitly support systems that are designed to do just that. Moreover, oftentimes, they will even benefit from those and so they really have no incentive to change.

 

Anyway, I am not latino myself, yet I have been called subhuman too - in my case, for being neurodivergent - and as such I see no point in interacting with them. I just wish they would do the same, but then again, I guess even that is too much to ask. So fuck them.

[Noiser]

55 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Yeah! I'm confident OP really changed the heart and mind of this special ed Nazi junkie ex-con!

Not sure what you are trying to imply, but I suggest to be direct. Btw, aren't you from 4chan? Just to know.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, ClumsyDoomer said:

 Perfect example of "communication breakdown".

No. This is:

 

 

["JL" was too short]

12 hours ago, EraserheadBaby said:

Sorry I came off like a bad after school special.

I've had a night to sleep on it, and I want to elaborate my position a bit more, because, to be clear, in no way do I think it's a bad thing if the mind of a single would-be Nazi happens to get changed and they realize "hey, maybe this isn't actually me."  And the way you did it is pretty close to exactly the way it should be done: being casually and unapologetically inclusive and appreciative of Jews (and every other sort of non-evil person), offering an enticing view of a more positive world to those who want it and leaving the actually evil folks with the sole option to go fuck themselves and die.

But I think that doing it with the specific, individual intention of "oh, I just need to reach out to this guy and change his mind" is philosophically and practically perilous.  There's a very real danger in normalizing this implicit narrative that all you have to do to address the threat of Nazis is to educate them or talk to them.  The reason why I say there's a danger is because it delays, or diverts, people's time and effort away from actual constructive action, and can lead them to thinking a problem is being addressed when it's not.  Also, it has the potential to, even if only unconsciously, shift the responsibility away from where it could be.  If the narrative (again, possibly only implicit and/or unconscious) is that people are nazis because someone hasn't been nice to them in just the right way yet, then suddenly the next implication, in turn, is that being a nazi might be the fault of anyone except the nazi themselves; the burden, in other words, might be on those who are already being targeted and victimized by hate, or their allies.  Which, uh, no.  I'm certainly not saying you (EraserheadBaby) were deliberately trying to push that narrative, but you may have unconsciously bought into it at some point along the line.

Yes, educating those who can be educated is good. But nazis, and for that matter everyone else, are (in the general, societal case) already absolutely drenched in sources of education or communication.  People don't need to hear that 2 + 2 = 4; they need to actually have a desire inside themselves to put 2 and 2 together.

[LexiMax]

37 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

Yes, educating those who can be educated is good. But nazis, and for that matter everyone else, are (in the general, societal case) already absolutely drenched in sources of education or communication.  People don't need to hear that 2 + 2 = 4; they need to actually have a desire inside themselves to put 2 and 2 together.

 

I've heard it put another way - it's really difficult to reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

 

People don't become Nazis because there's any basis to the ideology.  They do it because they're sociopaths, opportunists, or at the very least have unjustified grievances towards others.  You don't fight that with reasoned debate, you fight it by upending the source of their underlying grievances or just straight up ostracism.

Edited December 1, 2023 by LexiMax

[Rudolph]

54 minutes ago, LexiMax said:

People don't become Nazis because there's any basis to the ideology.  They do it because they're sociopaths, or at the very least have unjustified grievances towards others.  You don't fight that with reasoned debate, you fight it by upending the source of their underlying grievances or just straight up ostracism.

I would not call them "sociopaths", since that is rather ableist. I also do not believe it is a matter of "unjustified grievances".

 

The truth is, fascists do have a vested interest in thinking the way they do. For example, the whole concept of whiteness was made up to help slaveowners address the cognitive dissonance of using fellow human beings as free labor and also prevent class solidarity among workers. Business owners were quick to prop up the likes of Mussolini and Hitler in order to break up unions and scare the workers into submission. The same goes with the proponents of malthusianism who were just looking for an excuse not to give a shit about all the people who would suffer or die (notably in the Great Famine of Ireland, inaccurately referred to as the "Potato Famine") as a result of the formers' capitalistic pursuits. Even the unlamented Henry Kissinger knowingly caused countless millions of deaths all to secure his own political career.

 

These people generally are not the way they are because they are irrational or do not know any better - which is getting increasingly difficult in this age where information is readily available for free. More often than not, they do know better, but will cynically pretend not to, as it would otherwise require them to break away from the systems they are in. It is the same reason why the businesses that come out on top happen to be the most callous and vicious, as fairness always ends up getting in the way of profit.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Rudolph

[OpenRift]

On 11/29/2023 at 10:31 AM, EraserheadBaby said:

It seemed to plant a seed of doubt in his mind

I've talked to people before where I get the impression that I was able to give them a moment of pause, but then find later that practically nothing has changed. Honestly, I would be very careful around him, because this is one of many psychological tactics that neo nazis and people of that ilk will employ to lower your guard and try to drag you in with them.

 

I don't want to be pessimistic here, but the reality of the situation is that a turnaround from depths that low are very, very rare. Humans can be very arrogant creatures, no matter how disabled they may or may not be. 

[OpenRift]

13 hours ago, RDETalus said:

It's certainly a hilarious situation. I've been in weirder though. One time I was in an auditorium with Richard Spencer and a dozen nazis (some in uniforms and armbands) and I asked them what they would do if I refuse to be deported lol

Damn, that would've been the perfect opportunity to bring a molotov. Get a whole bunch of 'em at once.

 

For real though, they do not deserve your turnout. Even if you were just there to troll them, that still gives them a platform.