maps you find too hard/unfair to revisit

[fruity lerlups]

this is a thread for maps you find so difficult you just can't bring yourself to revisit them, not "hard but there's a strategy", but genuinely WTF AM I MEANT TO DO MOMENTS.
I'll start: Map26 Scythe 2, Death.. does anyone enjoy this? thats my whole deal with some of these brutally cruel maps is.. how are you meant to enjoy it? It seems like its just meant to be cruel for no reason.

Edited May 22 by fruity lerlups : i'm bad with tone and bad at peopling

[Doom-X-Machina]

Oh fuck here we go again...

[fruity lerlups]

5 minutes ago, Doom-X-Machina said:

Oh fuck here we go again...

am i literally not allowed to discuss anything? wtf is with this automatic response to anything i post like "OHH GOD ITS TRYING TO START DRAMA", like is it ok to discuss maps that people found genuinnely cruel and unfair or not? can you just relax for once and let people discuss stuff

[BeachThunder]

Have you beaten Scythe 2? Because it only gets more brutally cruel...

[fruity lerlups]

2 minutes ago, BeachThunder said:

Have you beaten Scythe 2? Because it only gets more brutally cruel...

map 24 and 25 were quite reasonable, map 23 is just poorly balanced, map 25 is both boring and cruel because its just being chased down a claustrophobic place with no ammo and then there's the fricking afrit with no ammo to deal with, i feel like some of these are genuinely fun difficult challenges like map 24 and 25, but some seem made with just "if they die a lot they'll think this is pretty hardcore" and it makes me just wish more of these latter maps were like 24 or 25 with genuinely clever encounters you've gotta think about.

[fruity lerlups]

7 minutes ago, BeachThunder said:

Have you beaten Scythe 2? Because it only gets more brutally cruel...

genuine question, is the cruelty enjoyable, because i've played maps that feel "cruel" but fun but sometimes it genuinely seems like the cruelty factor outweighs any fun you're having

 

[Lila Feuer]

MAP26 is my least favorite level in Scythe II because my least favorite things are total resource starvation and difficult to navigate environments paired with dangerous and unavoidable monsters. The last four levels however are some of the craziest slaughter maps I've ever played, I would suggest periodic savegames while taking cover somewhere during them because my ass was not ready.

[fruity lerlups]

3 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

MAP26 is my least favorite level in Scythe II because my least favorite things are total resource starvation and difficult to navigate environments paired with dangerous and unavoidable monsters. The last four levels however are some of the craziest slaughter maps I've ever played, I would suggest periodic savegames while taking cover somewhere during them because my ass was not ready.

yeah im looking for some balls to the wall slaughter not resource starvation puzzles, i just find it so unenjoyable

[fruity lerlups]

4 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

MAP26 is my least favorite level in Scythe II because my least favorite things are total resource starvation and difficult to navigate environments paired with dangerous and unavoidable monsters. The last four levels however are some of the craziest slaughter maps I've ever played, I would suggest periodic savegames while taking cover somewhere during them because my ass was not ready.

i enjoy some genuinely fun slaughter, i'm playing through pocket slaughter rn and i like those puzzles where its like "what position do you take and what do you eliminate first" not, "here go through this labrynth you need to perfectly allocate 24 shells to the 7 archvilles, carefully punch out 20 revenants in cramped spaces, perfectly time the response of these barons so they infight the arachnotrons, do the konami code to access the secret invuln where you have to punch out the last 4 archvilles, all while a mastermind is teleporting around and sniping you.. isnt this fun? its hard so its fun?"
i'd rather "here's 200 revenants blocking the red key, and 20 cyberdemons and archville hotspots youve got to avoid so you dont get zapped while dancing around thousands of projectiles! press the red key to get the BFG and 4000 cells to waste those sexy cow boys, ARE YOU A BAD ENOUGH DUDE?!?" I like those kinda challenges more than these ammo starvation and like claustrophobic encounters with archvilles, there's literally spots where whether or not you get zapped is dependent on whether you luck out on a pain state with the SSG, at that point its not strategy. I saw a video online where a guy did 96 tries before he single segmented it, which tells me the map is less about strategy and more about getting extremely lucky with the rng.

[Lila Feuer]

Just now, fruity lerlups said:

yeah im looking for some balls to the wall slaughter not resource starvation puzzles, i just find it so unenjoyable

I'm similarly annoyed with forced pistol starts (in a non-episodic structure wad) at some random point during continuous play that, often knowing full well you just got your arsenal and any topped off health and armor reset, the mapper will almost always subject you to some really tedious setup near the start (if you're lucky, it might be the entire time), so any good flow and pacing you had prior grinds to screeching halt as you now scrape by on nothing. It's kinda like those crappy forced stealth sections in early naughties FPS games, the switch-up no one asked for during their power fantasy.

Yeah I'll take difficult combat, combat puzzles, anything fighting, any day over w.e the hell that nonsense is I just listed.

[Jacek Bourne]

42 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

this is a thread for genuinely like BS difficult maps, not "hard but there's a strategy", but genuinely WTF AM I MEANT TO DO MOMENTS.
I'll start: Map26 Scythe 2, Death.. does anyone enjoy this? thats my whole deal with some of these brutally cruel maps is.. how are you meant to enjoy it? It seems like its just meant to be cruel for no reason.

 

Don't be closed minded when it comes to what people like. While you may not enjoy this map, I know many people who do. Also, there are fairly consistent ways to beat this map. Either your strategies don't work or you aren't executing them well enough to survive. If I were you I wouldn't rag on any particular map design style as it will always end poorly. Instead, you should either try the map again and see if you can figure it out or just accept that you won't be able to enjoy every style of mapping regardless of it's quality. Nobody can enjoy everything.

[fruity lerlups]

Just now, Jacek Bourne said:

 

Don't be closed minded when it comes to what people like. While you may not enjoy this map, I know many people who do. Also, there are fairly consistent ways to beat this map. Either your strategies don't work or you aren't executing them well enough to survive. If I were you I wouldn't rag on any particular map design style as it will always end poorly. Instead, you should either try the map again and see if you can figure it out or just accept that you won't be able to enjoy every style of mapping regardless of it's quality. Nobody can enjoy everything.

lol your video is the one i watched, 96 tries to single segment, but if you enjoyed it you enjoyed it. I think its ok to discuss design you find genuinely just frustrating, sometimes expressing what you want means someone who wants to make what you want will see it and go "yeah.. i wanna make that". For me resource starvation puzzles just aren't my jig.

[Jacek Bourne]

2 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

lol your video is the one i watched, 96 tries to single segment, but if you enjoyed it you enjoyed it. I think its ok to discuss design you find genuinely just frustrating, sometimes expressing what you want means someone who wants to make what you want will see it and go "yeah.. i wanna make that". For me resource starvation puzzles just aren't my jig.

 

I came back to it about a year ago and got it on my first attempt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtDujFI58OQ

[Obsidian]

40 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

am i literally not allowed to discuss anything? wtf is with this automatic response to anything i post like "OHH GOD ITS TRYING TO START DRAMA", like is it ok to discuss maps that people found genuinnely cruel and unfair or not? can you just relax for once and let people discuss stuff

 

It helps if your thread is written in a way that invites actual conversation instead of coming off as aimless complaining. In case you're wondering, this thread is doing the latter.

[fruity lerlups]

Just now, Jacek Bourne said:

 

I came back to it about a year ago and got it on my first attempt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtDujFI58OQ&t=12s

good job, ill probably study your run for when i record my (saved) run. I genuinely wish I was good enough to tackle these super difficult maps and enjoy them, I found like my limit has been reached with NewGothic Movement 1's latter maps and Scythe 2's, when i finally cracked Rush's entire roster and UV-Maxed every level I was like ecstatic, the reward was so worth it, and I really want to relive that joy of just cracking through an entire set like that again, alas I think i've reached my current limit and it makes it hard to enjoy stuff.

[fruity lerlups]

2 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

 

It helps if your thread is written in a way that invites actual conversation instead of coming off as aimless complaining. In case you're wondering, this thread is doing the latter.

it helps if people just discuss the topic, what are some levels you genuinely find insufferable and don't want to look back on, some people have suggested Hell Revealed 2 has quite a few of these, I wanna know, was there any maps you just felt like, "ok this is BS"? discuss

[fruity lerlups]

9 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

I'm similarly annoyed with forced pistol starts (in a non-episodic structure wad) at some random point during continuous play that, often knowing full well you just got your arsenal and any topped off health and armor reset)

I play pistol starts every level but sometimes with those hotstarts where you run around like a headless chicken until you've got an arsenal that lets you basically scrape by, one of my biggest pet peeves, and when you find out the level is a resource puzzle it just makes me want it to end, its a little nicer when its a wide open area where you're dashing around and slowly building up an arsenal and can return and wreak havoc on the riff raff, but when its like just scraping by it just feels like im stressing myself out. Furthermore when I feel like i just scraped by, i never really "solved" the combat puzzle I just grit my teeth through it and hope for the best, i feel like i'm deprived of the satisfaction of a job well done, that eureka moment where I figure out a combat puzzle is the high I live for in doom and i've been striving to find content that does it since. My most recent experience with that was map24 and 25 of Scythe 2, great maps that make you genuinely feel like "uh huh! thats how its done".. just kinda, wanna relive that.

[Obsidian]

1 minute ago, fruity lerlups said:

it helps if people just discuss the topic

 

I'm going to stop you right there. As the thread author, you set the baseline for the content that follows through both your topic and your conduct: you do something, people react to something, simple enough to grasp. Now, what impression do you think "genuinely BS maps thread" gives? Because to me it gives off the impression that the thread author just wants to complain about maps in a disparaging manner, which in turn will inform my responses that I give. The language that you pick matters and it isn't fair to put the onus on conducting a respectable conversation on others when you're trying to be that conversation's instigator.

[fruity lerlups]

3 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

 

I'm going to stop you right there. As the thread author, you set the baseline for the content that follows through both your topic and your conduct: you do something, people react to something, simple enough to grasp. Now, what impression do you think "genuinely BS maps thread" gives? Because to me it gives off the impression that the thread author just wants to complain about maps in a disparaging manner, which in turn will inform my responses that I give. The language that you pick matters and it isn't fair to put the onus on conducting a respectable conversation on others when you're trying to be that conversation's instigator.

ill change the title
i seem to just genuinely have a problem with conveying myself without coming across as combative, i'm sorry but it just seems to keep happening

[Amaruψ]

1 hour ago, fruity lerlups said:

but genuinely WTF AM I MEANT TO DO MOMENTS.

 

There aren't any particular maps that I've come across that feel unfair when it comes to difficulty, but I do have come across a few where the difficulty doesn't actually come from the enemies themselves, but instead from the map's layout and "puzzles". 

 

People love to take a dump on Hexen for its obtuse progression and obscure switches, but Jim Flynn puts Guardian of Steel to absolute shame. The amount of effort the man put in his maps to make them as confusing as possible requires a round of applause. Seriously, "WTF AM I MEANT TO DO" is an unadulterated, genuine description of any of his content. Apart his maps, another one that comes to mind is Eternal Doom's map 20. Quite possibly the worst map in the entire wad, solely because of the switches disguised as walls (without any sort of indication that they are, mind you) paired with decorations acting as "switches". It took me about 3 hours or so to get across the map just because of this. Even when I was just a hair too close to finishing the wad, I simply threw away every intention of finishing it once I learned that the last map's author was the same as Map 20.

 

Sorry if this wasn't the intent of this thread, but I suppose that map layout themselves can contribute to a lot of frustration and cruelty too. Plus, when was I going to be able to channel my bottled up frustration about this anyways.

[Lila Feuer]

18 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

when i finally cracked Rush's entire roster and UV-Maxed every level I was like ecstatic, the reward was so worth it, and I really want to relive that joy of just cracking through an entire set like that again, alas I think i've reached my current limit and it makes it hard to enjoy stuff.

The real problem is instant gratification, or lack thereof, getting good at anything is going to take time, whether you think that time is worth investing in or not is up to you, if you don't enjoy the grind for more difficult sets, then you'll have to either lower your expectations with it or else move on to something more suitable.

[fruity lerlups]

1 minute ago, Amaruψ said:

 

Sorry if this wasn't the intent of this thread, but I suppose that map layout themselves can contribute to a lot of frustration and cruelty too. Plus, when was I going to be able to channel my bottled up frustration about this anyways.

this is the point of the thread! discuss maps you find just so frustrating, obtuse, with obscure progression or unfair combat situations that you just go "f this" and don't want to ever see it again.
Let out your frustrations! Here's your chance to rant about a map you just genuinely cannot bring yourself to enjoy! Its ok to criticize!

[fruity lerlups]

Just now, Lila Feuer said:

The real problem is instant gratification, or lack thereof, getting good at anything is going to take time, whether you think that time is worth investing in or not is up to you, if you don't enjoy the grind for more difficult sets, then you'll have to either lower your expectations with it or else move on to something more suitable.

i'm trying to find stuff that feels like Rush or map24 of Scythe 2, stuff with little combat puzzles that eventually *click*, I found like with Map09 of NewGothic Movement 1 for example, like I could get to the end, but then it just suddenly throws absolute curveballs at you and then there was one run where I had no cells to actually deal with that fort of cyberdemons and I was just like "this is.. BS". I had a similar problem with Rush's Map05 where I had an almost successful run, but then I ran out of ammo of everything with 1 enemy remaining, the Spider Mastermind, and I just felt robbed. I'm not looking for instant gratification but sometimes I just feel like surviving a map doesn't feel as satisfying as conquering it.

[Li'l devil]

17 minutes ago, Amaruψ said:

 

There aren't any particular maps that I've come across that feel unfair when it comes to difficulty, but I do have come across a few where the difficulty doesn't actually come from the enemies themselves, but instead from the map's layout and "puzzles". 

 

People love to take a dump on Hexen for its obtuse progression and obscure switches, but Jim Flynn puts Guardian of Steel to absolute shame. The amount of effort the man put in his maps to make them as confusing as possible requires a round of applause. Seriously, "WTF AM I MEANT TO DO" is an unadulterated, genuine description of any of his content. Apart his maps, another one that comes to mind is Eternal Doom's map 20. Quite possibly the worst map in the entire wad, solely because of the switches disguised as walls (without any sort of indication that they are, mind you) paired with decorations acting as "switches". It took me about 3 hours or so to get across the map just because of this. Even when I was just a hair too close to finishing the wad, I simply threw away every intention of finishing it once I learned that the last map's author was the same as Map 20.

I had the exact same problem with Eternal. It was already annoying me to have to look up a guide to be able to beat half of the maps, but when I reached map 30, looked up the walkthrough and realized how insane it is, I quit right at the start.

[fruity lerlups]

2 minutes ago, Li'l devil said:

I had the exact same problem with Eternal. It was already annoying me to have to look up a guide to be able to beat half of the maps, but when I reached map 30, looked up the walkthrough and realized how insane it is, I quit right at the start.

this seems to be the case with so many 90s wads, just so obtuse with obscure progression, the idea i guess was the longer you spent trying to figure them out the "better" they were?

edit: i wanna do some stuff like Icarus Alien Vanguard or Memento Mori but i fear i'll just end up pulling my hair out going "where.. the frick.. do.. i.. GOO?!?"

[Amaruψ]

In my opinion, this sort of progression tends to stem from both the inexperience of the early map makers, plus their attempts to incorporate something into the game that it doesn't natively support, adding to the confusion in the progress when it doesn't translate well.

 

For example, the first secret map of Eternal Doom. Alright, I'd say that turning on the TV with the remote and going through it is a neat gimmick, but knowing how to summon the remote and that you've to actually walk over it for it to activate and then you have to walk in through the TV to progress is... a bit much for someone who's more experienced with typical Doom progressions. Hell, it's a bit too obscure for those who're seasoned in this area of expertise. And no, the more time I spend finding out how something works, the less desirable it becomes for me to revisit it. 

[GreenAnime]

From all of the wads I've played so far, getting through Hell Revealed's early-mid game puts you into a nearly impossible situation in which forces you to retry the map if you mess it up. The map design is kind of rushed and uncanny, uncanny meaning liminal space-like, just a lot of gigantic blocks slapped with one texture in it. Also that million imps punching map, fuck that shit.

 

Tetanus tore my sorry ballsacks back when I'm pretty new at Doom 2's gameplay but decent enough to pass through community made wads. However, I somewhat adored this more than HR due to the combat design and choreography are surprisingly well thought out which made me to enjoy pain. There are also some certain situations that traps the player forcing him to fight and go absolute balls but without the slaughtery concept. And this wad is doing way too good job of doing it. One sample is a tight arena where you fight a bunch of revenants, the revs will just try to chase and punch you forcing you to quickly find space and resources so that you can kill them as fast as you can. Those are one of my favorite highlights of the wad. 

[fruity lerlups]

5 minutes ago, GreenAnime said:

From all of the wads I've played so far, getting through Hell Revealed's early-mid game puts you into a nearly impossible situation in which forces you to retry the map if you mess it up. The map design is kind of rushed and uncanny, uncanny meaning liminal space-like, just a lot of gigantic blocks slapped with one texture in it. Also that million imps punching map, fuck that shit.

 

Tetanus tore my sorry ballsacks back when I'm pretty new at Doom 2's gameplay but decent enough to pass through community made wads. However, I somewhat adored this more than HR due to the combat design and choreography are surprisingly well thought out which made me to enjoy pain. There are also some certain situations that traps the player forcing him to fight and go absolute balls but without the slaughtery concept. And this wad is doing way too good job of doing it. One sample is a tight arena where you fight a bunch of revenants, the revs will just try to chase and punch you forcing you to quickly find space and resources so that you can kill them as fast as you can. Those are one of my favorite highlights of the wad. 

i've heard hell revealed I and II are full of a lot of nonsense

[Devalaous]

Most maps that I find rage inducing and 'never play again' tend to be, suprise surprise, IoS maps. AV's is literally unwinnable on controllers since you pull off some kind of ridiculous megastraferun, HR's is bullshit, Whitemare's also drove me up the wall.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, Citadel at the Edge of Eternity is a 'once, never again' kind of map because its too long and exhausting, I never once was frustrated and having a bad time. It doesn't look THAT massive on the automap, yet it took me 8+ hours to beat. The actual rageinducer map from that set was Blood Demesne.

 

24 minutes ago, Amaruψ said:

In my opinion, this sort of progression tends to stem from both the inexperience of the early map makers, plus their attempts to incorporate something into the game that it doesn't natively support, adding to the confusion in the progress when it doesn't translate well.

 

For example, the first secret map of Eternal Doom. Alright, I'd say that turning on the TV with the remote and going through it is a neat gimmick, but knowing how to summon the remote and that you've to actually walk over it for it to activate and then you have to walk in through the TV to progress is... a bit much for someone who's more experienced with typical Doom progressions. Hell, it's a bit too obscure for those who're seasoned in this area of expertise. And no, the more time I spend finding out how something works, the less desirable it becomes for me to revisit it. 

 

Eternal Doom doesn't actually have secret maps...but that map in that slot makes it so noone would ever blink an eye if it WAS a secret map.

[Lila Feuer]

I thought Hell Revealed 1 was pretty easy, I didn't start running into serious resistance until MAP23, its difficulty is exaggerated much like Plutonia's. HR2 on the other hand, wew, although I think that one suffers more from artificially inflated difficulty more often than not due to arch-vile vomit leading to a regiment's worth of resurrections on some maps, which can sometime cause you to actually run out of ammo...in a slaughter map. This was also during continuous play too, so I can't even imagine how comically awful pistol starting those might be.