Devils and Demons (A.K.A Super Ghouls and Ghost)

[Fonze]

Arctangent said:

Sawing the faces off of live pigs in a brutal matter doesn't suddenly become acceptable because you're doing it for the pork, especially well within the realm of reason to kill them in painless ways before you chop their bodies into pieces.

I agree, but throwing away said pork is merely cutting off the nose to spite the face. Joe should know by now to work on his delivery, but two wrongs don't make a right and neither do two half-wrongs.

Also, as someone who works in the meat industry, I love that analogy you used :)

That all said though, we should try to focus on what was done right here equally as much as what needs to be worked on; of course specifics are always better than a general "this sux."

It's good that the OP here has a solid concept and it's good to take pride in one's work. The addition of custom monsters and music shows at least some basic understanding of a wad editing software, which is good as well. I took me over 4 years to figure out DB2 didn't have the ability to add music; I was running on D_RUNNIN or weird map slots for a while.

On the flip side, think about the map from an objective standpoint; to do so, play other maps. Many, many other maps. Play some of the best and some of the average; see what makes them tick, how they work, and what sets them apart. Study the flow of combat; people find it fun to be pressured from multiple angles, rather than facing everything from the front like a massive shooting gallery. Most of Doom's monsters are projectile-based enemies which shoot projectiles in a straight line towards the player's current position. That basically means move slightly left or right and those projectiles do nothing. Pressure from multiple angles would force players to have to manage a fight that they cannot see all-at-once, which requires at least a small amount of strategy. On that same note, mixing groups of low- and high-priority targets will further demand more on the part of the player, increasing the difficulty level in a fun way. Make sure that after the main threat is absolved, clean-up is relatively quick; this will avoid tedium. When you build your levels, shape areas to accentuate the combat you wish to achieve; it is much easier to take something which functions but is ugly and make it beautiful than to take something that is beautiful, but doesn't function, and try to force you vision's function on it. Your vision isn't set in stone until you make it in the map editor. On the note of detailing, as you play other wads, look at what makes them pretty. Height variation not only helps combat, but also helps areas to look pretty more naturally, without the addition of tons of lines. Still, tons of lines can pretty-up an area well; little things like adding in some stuff on the walls and ceilings/floors can go a long way to bring out the best in a map. Support beams are among the easiest bits of detailing to add and make for excellent trim when transitioning between textures. Always try to present the lines and sectors you build as 3D objects, rather than walls/floors/ceilings with wallpaper plastered on, which is something you did well with the stairs in your video, as that's how a 3D object (stair, in this case) should appear.

My biggest recommendation, though, is to start small and keep it small for a while, at least until you have a firm grasp on what makes a map fun and what will attract players to play a map you spent tons of time on over another map. Good luck as you continue to make maps and have fun with what you build :)

[everennui]

Someone is willing to dedicate time to learning a skill to create a conversion and people want to pick the low hanging fruit and state the obvious about how a new mapper doesn't have experience. It looks like he/she/you is/are asking questions and that's how you will get better. This place is just like high school. There are some awesome people and there are some sheisters. You'll get better with time. You'll learn from experience - just like everyone else. Dooming isn't innate.

[Misty]

And this mess or flames on thread happens,because I didn`t think before I wrote first comment. For me,this first attempt was good,because OP know some basics of how to include new monsters and textures. Yes,I know a lot of work must add in map before you can call it playable. Instead of saying "good",I should say "you made a good start,but it`s not enough to call it good map and you must work more and play more wads and see how it works".
Anyway,I`m sorry and I will really think before I post in first map threads to not cause any troubles. Good luck for everyone.

[Merry Widow]

@Mistress Pearl: At least you're learning.That's a start.Good luck to you on this! :D

[Doomkid]

Ah yes, I remember my first Doom wad. Everyone has thrown a fair bit of advice your way, so I'll just echo them: Start small, but keep on trying! I've been mapping for almost 16 years so trust me I say it can take time to refine your style and your mapping skills. (depending on who you ask, I've still yet to make a fun map, so keep in mind that you'll never please everyone no matter how good your map may seem)

Keep working on it, it's very rewarding when you get it right :)

Arctangent said:

Sawing the faces off of live pigs in a brutal matter doesn't suddenly become acceptable because you're doing it for the pork, especially well within the realm of reason to kill them in painless ways before you chop their bodies into pieces.

what in the fuck

[Bauul]

I love the texture use! Where did you find them OP?

Good luck with the wad, feel free to come here and ask for as much help as you need. Having more Doom mappers is never a bad thing!

If you're struggling to come up with an interesting design for a level, try drawing it on paper first. Just start scribbling a maze down. It's much easier to come up with an overall design when you're not limited by the speed of your Doom mapping skills.

joe-ilya said:

The thing is, everyone's first maps are crappy, that means my first reply wasn't personal, nor an attack.

I basically told the guy to get experience before coming up with an over-the-top idea for making a wad or he'll end up embarrasing herself/himself

My first ever map was a ridiculously over-the-top idea, and I got pretty good feedback from it (even a Cacoward nomination). There is never anything wrong is pushing yourself.

[MistressPearl]

thank you everyone for all your support....and im slowing learning the ropes on it atm. first thing is first im gonna start with the maps before i even work with slade, cause i feel i am putting too much on my plate cause i keep switching between slade and doom builder at the same time when i should be working on one thing at a time. =3

[joe-ilya]

Bauul said:

My first ever map was a ridiculously over-the-top idea, and I got pretty good feedback from it (even a Cacoward nomination). There is never anything wrong is pushing yourself.

I'm sure you worked long and hard with your first ever map, which is a rare occurrence.

I'm sure this map was done in around 30 minutes.

[MistressPearl]

longer than 30 minutes....

[Pure Hellspawn]

Dragonfly said:

Now, disregard the total assholish nature of Joe's post, that was incredibly rude and not how someone should be welcomed to the community.

...

So let me first take the time to say welcome to Doomworld, MistressPearl.

Unfortunately, among the teenage angst fueled crap Joe posted were some good tips that are often posted here on these forums.

1) Learn the basics of Doom mapping with the base doom resources. By that I mean no custom monsters or textures. (I know, I know, where's the fun in that, right?)

2) Try to map for a range of source ports. Start close to "vanilla" (as in, use no source ports or simply chocolate Doom). step it up and use Boom. Learn the new features given to you. Then step it up again and try ZDoom or 3DGE or one of the many other source ports. Familiarise yourself again with the even larger pool of features.

3) Once you've gotten quite used to the stock doom resources and know what source port you enjoy the most, learn what makes a level GOOD. Play a bunch of cacoward winning maps to see what people often rate as the best maps / projects. Start to emulate parts of these projects that you like. e.g. "The interconnectivity of this level was fantastic", "That ambush was really fun", "Even though it was a keycard hunt, I didn't ever feel lost".




4) Now you're a bit better, take a texture pack or two. Play around, make something new and fun. Maybe be daring and add a new monster or two, but don't go overboard - keep it "Doom".



5) Once you feel you've mastered what makes a level fun, how to put together a strong / enjoyable visual style and, equally as important, what NOT to do... That's when you start to make your magnum opus.

tl;dr - welcome to Doomworld. Be less ambitious to begin with, as your end product will be something that may not be very good.
Simply start from the basics, work your way up and THEN get to work on your masterpiece.

If you need any help, there's some great threads that can assist you.

1)No custom monsters: Learn monster placement with vanilla monsters first. This helps with monster placement. For instance, chaingunners or revenants inside spots that are hard to aim for the player make devastating foes. A well placed Pain Elemental or two can be more of a threat than a poorly placed Cyberdemon.

As for textures: the main thing i saw is the door and the wall are the same. This is a no no. Try to diversify the textures a bit. I do think custom textures are okay, but layout is more important.

2)From what I remember, things are done differently depending on the map type. You make a door differently in UDMF than in Doom in Doom.


3)I'd recommend this before mapping possibly. Maybe make this number one.
4) Here, sometimes less is more. A pack with a few good custom monsters is better than a lot of various monster types. And I strongly advise keeping weapons to a MAXIMUM of 2 per slot (since slots 1 and 3 have this).

And also, I recommend speaking to Jimmy about The Joy of Mapping.

[MistressPearl]

I shall keep that in mind also just to give a heads up...I still am doing mapping on doom but it will be a long while before i even release a beta for it cause I'm also writing a manga and doing a bit of practice on voice acting so kinda doing multiple projects atm but I shall be working on it from time to time and every advice helps on making it possible

I keep updating on any news here if you want to keep track

https://twitter.com/MistressKeyne

[Pure Hellspawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QA75z81wRk

this is the actual level in the game.

[MistressPearl]

yes but i might be re-vamping it once i get a little more use to doom builder

It was a first run on it but like they say the original i made, it wont be the same as the full release