[GZDoom] DOOM CE: PSX TC & D64 Retribution, overhauled

[Individualised]

Is there a way to play this on Ubuntu? The modDB download is very Windows-centric. I do have Doom 64 (Windows version which runs through Proton) on Steam, but even if I use Wine to run the included batch file it's not going to work because it expects the Windows version of Steam. Can I manually patch the Doom 64 WAD and run it/the included pk3s under a native version of GZDoom? There is a Linux version of Flips included in the package, in the "patcher" folder, but GZDoom doesn't like the file it outputs (it just doesn't recognise it) and it seems that there's more to it than applying a single patch to DOOM64.WAD judging by the batch file.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Individualised

[Immorpher]

7 hours ago, Individualised said:

Is there a way to play this on Ubuntu? The modDB download is very Windows-centric. I do have Doom 64 (Windows version which runs through Proton) on Steam, but even if I use Wine to run the included batch file it's not going to work because it expects the Windows version of Steam. Can I manually patch the Doom 64 WAD and run it/the included pk3s under a native version of GZDoom? There is a Linux version of Flips included in the package, in the "patcher" folder, but GZDoom doesn't like the file it outputs (it just doesn't recognise it) and it seems that there's more to it than applying a single patch to DOOM64.WAD judging by the batch file.

If you get the patched WAD, it should run on a native linux version of GZDoom. I had a friend stream CE from linux once doing that. I know little of how he set it up though.

[Individualised]

16 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

If you get the patched WAD, it should run on a native linux version of GZDoom. I had a friend stream CE from linux once doing that. I know little of how he set it up though.

Right, that's what I was thinking. I can't seem to be able to properly patch the WAD though, the file it produces is not recognised as a valid IWAD by either native Linux GZDoom or the exe included in the modDB package.

[Immorpher]

3 hours ago, Individualised said:

Right, that's what I was thinking. I can't seem to be able to properly patch the WAD though, the file it produces is not recognised as a valid IWAD by either native Linux GZDoom or the exe included in the modDB package.

Oh ya the patched WAD doesnt run in GZDoom itself, but Doom 64 CE needs it to run. So you would put that patched WAD in the same directory as the linux GZDoom but instead of running that WAD, run CE instead.

[Individualised]

24 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

Oh ya the patched WAD doesnt run in GZDoom itself, but Doom 64 CE needs it to run. So you would put that patched WAD in the same directory as the linux GZDoom but instead of running that WAD, run CE instead.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. There's nothing to run in the download other than the Windows GZDoom, and GZDoom does not recognise any of the pk3s included as being valid IWADs either.

[Individualised]

Managed to do it! I had to run the Flips patcher from the command line, and make the output file have an IWAD extension. For some reason if you don't do that or use the GUI it does not patch the file properly. Very strange. Problem solved!

[Immorpher]

2 hours ago, Individualised said:

Managed to do it! I had to run the Flips patcher from the command line, and make the output file have an IWAD extension. For some reason if you don't do that or use the GUI it does not patch the file properly. Very strange. Problem solved!

Ohh I see! Ya I think I got confused which step you were on. Glad it worked in the end! :)

[molecicco]

A new version (3.6.0) is up on ModDB.

 

Highlights:

• @DrPyspy shared with me the complete frames for the Archvile early, and gave me permission to include them in this release. No more mini mother demon!
  • I recommend disabling the upscales and smooth/interpolated animations because they butcher the great art! If you're disabling stuff, why not use the opportunity to also disable the PBR addon and extra particles and gore as well. The game looks and feels better than you think without them.
• Doom 64 sector light effects have been replaced with Thinkers that essentially function like the originals instead of hacking the Doom ones (please report new bugs that may appear because of this). Because the originals have very strong strobing effects, a slider to control their intensity has also been added.
• In PSX Doom, you can now switch super shotgun sprites between Final Doom style and the classic one.
• All non-gameplay maps have been reimplemented as GZDoom cutscenes, except for the title sequences. No more fake maps between levels.
• Improved mod compatibility and various bug fixes.

 

NOTE: Saved games from previous versions won't work! This version has breaking changes, so any map packs from ModDB's addons tab need to be downloaded again. The Doom 64 Lost Levels wad also needs to be generated again using the patcher.

 

A clip of Dark Citadel featuring the new Revenant and Archvile:

 

 

 

The complete Doom 64 monster roster if the extra monsters are enabled:

 

 

In addition, I released an experimental addon back in December that lets you play PSX Doom CE (or Final Doom or any CE map pack) with Doom 64 graphics and gameplay: https://www.moddb.com/mods/doom-ce/addons/psx-doom-64.

 

Hangar:

 

 

Plutonia's Congo (features Craneo's Chaingunner and DrPySpy's Revenant and Archvile):

 

 

EDIT: One more video, this time in low fidelity using a heavily configured Vanilla Essence:

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by molecicco

[molecicco]

Leaked footage of a lost doom 64 build before some monsters were cut:

 

That last video inspired me to make this haha. Could've made it more convincing with more effort!

[Individualised]

Is there a way to keep the fire sky on Tower of Babel while using the Lost Levels add-on for PSX Doom CE? When it's enabled, it moves Tower of Babel to its original PC spot (which is fine) and changes the sky to the The Shores of Hell one. Even if it makes less sense I'd rather keep the Inferno/Fire sky for that level, I still prefer it. I tried seeing if I could edit the Lost Levels' pk3's MAPINFO to change it back but weirdly enough it says that Tower of Babel should still have the fire sky even though it doesn't. Any ideas?

[RichardDS90]

Hiya, absolutely love this version of PSX Doom TC, I'm wondering if there is a way I can play it without the Lost Levels? So the map order is exactly like the PSX version? 

[Individualised]

3 minutes ago, Salahmander2 said:

Hiya, absolutely love this version of PSX Doom TC, I'm wondering if there is a way I can play it without the Lost Levels? So the map order is exactly like the PSX version? 

Just remove the Lost Levels addon from your GZDoom folder.

[Omega Tyrant]

20 hours ago, Individualised said:

Is there a way to keep the fire sky on Tower of Babel while using the Lost Levels add-on for PSX Doom CE? When it's enabled, it moves Tower of Babel to its original PC spot (which is fine) and changes the sky to the The Shores of Hell one. Even if it makes less sense I'd rather keep the Inferno/Fire sky for that level, I still prefer it. I tried seeing if I could edit the Lost Levels' pk3's MAPINFO to change it back but weirdly enough it says that Tower of Babel should still have the fire sky even though it doesn't. Any ideas?

In the console menu, you can enter "changesky firesk00" to get the fire sky on any map. The caveat is it uses the old fire sky even if you have the enhanced fire sky enabled (unless that got fixed in a more recent version, I last played on 3.3.0.1), and of course it won't change the lighting on the map to match the fire sky (not a problem with Tower Of Babel though since it still uses its old lighting that matches the fire sky).

[Individualised]

1 hour ago, Omega Tyrant said:

In the console menu, you can enter "changesky firesk00" to get the fire sky on any map. The caveat is it uses the old fire sky even if you have the enhanced fire sky enabled (unless that got fixed in a more recent version, I last played on 3.3.0.1), and of course it won't change the lighting on the map to match the fire sky (not a problem with Tower Of Babel though since it still uses its old lighting that matches the fire sky). 

I suppose that would work, though it would be nice if it could be done automatically.

[molecicco]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:39 PM, Individualised said:

I suppose that would work, though it would be nice if it could be done automatically.

 

If you download the latest version (3.6.3, which I've just uploaded), there is an option called "Use PC skies" that you can disable to change it back to a fire sky. You will need to re-enter the level though. The option has been there for a long time, but it wasn't working properly until now.

[Individualised]

On 2/11/2023 at 12:43 PM, molecicco said:

EDIT: One more video, this time in low fidelity using a heavily configured Vanilla Essence:

Out of curiosity, is this something that will ever be officially part of DOOM CE? I know the entire point of this project is supposed to be that it's a remaster, and I would probably still play it in it's remastered state, but I think this looks really cool, and it would be interesting to see how far you can get to the original PSX and 64 look in GZDoom.

 

If not, do you mind sharing your Vanilla Essence configuration you used?

[molecicco]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:34 AM, Individualised said:

Out of curiosity, is this something that will ever be officially part of DOOM CE? I know the entire point of this project is supposed to be that it's a remaster, and I would probably still play it in it's remastered state, but I think this looks really cool, and it would be interesting to see how far you can get to the original PSX and 64 look in GZDoom.

 

If not, do you mind sharing your Vanilla Essence configuration you used?

 

Actually, my preferred settings for this mod are the ones that keep it as faithful as possible, with a couple of exceptions. I also don't load any addon except for brightmaps, so I understand. The videos in the previous posts are how I play it (except for the crt filter and vanilla essence of course).

 

As for Vanilla Essence, I've only ever used it to record that video. I don't see the need to integrate it with this mod because it already works perfectly on its own. These are the settings I have saved, but don't remember if I changed something after I finished recording:

Spoiler

 

[Lysandus]

How different is Plutonia from the original PC version? I'm asking this because Plutonia is famous for it's high monster count and complex level design, and, since the mod's philosophy is "it must run on PSX", i'm afraid the maps have been too simplified/stripped down. As a reference, i've played through the TNT version, and although i noticed the lack of some high level encounters (like the Cyberdemon and final room in Nukage Processing), i didn't feel it detracted too much from the overall experience. Overall i felt the campaign was easier, but i enjoyed it more than i did the PC version, because it had better lighting and atmosphere.

 

But with Plutonia it's a different matter, because what made Plutonia great was it's difficult battles and level design. So that's why i'm asking: is it similar to TNT in terms of comparison to the PC version, or is it much different and simplified?

[Dynamo]

6 hours ago, Lysandus said:

since the mod's philosophy is "it must run on PSX", i'm afraid the maps have been too simplified/stripped down.

The reason why some people associate Playstation levels with much simplified geometry is because the majority of the layouts of the first episode of Playstation Doom were taken from the Jaguar version, which had significantly more severe technical restrictions. If you actually play the second Playstation Doom episode, even on original hardware, which is based off Doom II, you will notice that the maps have sacrificed far less in terms of geometrical complexity and detail than their Doom 1 counterparts, since they didn't go through the Jaguar blender first.

 

Now I haven't played Plutonia in CE yet, but consider those statements. Not all maps are going to be as plain as some of the Jaguar D1 maps were.

[Shepardus]

6 hours ago, Lysandus said:

Plutonia is famous for it's high monster count

Plutonia averages fewer monsters per map than Doom II.

[Omega Tyrant]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:21 PM, Lysandus said:

How different is Plutonia from the original PC version? I'm asking this because Plutonia is famous for it's high monster count and complex level design, and, since the mod's philosophy is "it must run on PSX", i'm afraid the maps have been too simplified/stripped down. As a reference, i've played through the TNT version, and although i noticed the lack of some high level encounters (like the Cyberdemon and final room in Nukage Processing), i didn't feel it detracted too much from the overall experience. Overall i felt the campaign was easier, but i enjoyed it more than i did the PC version, because it had better lighting and atmosphere.

 

But with Plutonia it's a different matter, because what made Plutonia great was it's difficult battles and level design. So that's why i'm asking: is it similar to TNT in terms of comparison to the PC version, or is it much different and simplified?

Plutonia maps are pretty small on average both in size and enemy count. Having played through the entire Plutonia episode on PSXCE, I can attest its maps are mostly faithful to the original without any major map cuts. The main two apparent differences are that the PSX limitations forces less enemy variety per map (so for example, a map with Mancubi may have them all replaced with Revenants or groups of Imps instead), and that map verticality is more limited (so there will be platforms with their height shortened, for example the pit in the final room of Abattoire is a lot less shallow, though still too deep to get out of). There's also of course no Archvile and the Mastermind is barely around, but PSXCE gives you the option to reenable them in most of their same placements of the original maps.

 

For one more thing, as a plus, since barely any of the Plutonia maps were actually converted for the official Final Doom PS1 port, most of the Plutonia maps in PSXCE are fan-created, and thus have a noticeably improved conversion quality to them compared to many of the TNT and Master Levels conversions (e.g. you won't be fighting Hell Knights in place of the bigger enemies all the time).

[Gez]

On jeudi 18 mai 2023 at 3:21 AM, Lysandus said:

How different is Plutonia from the original PC version? I'm asking this because Plutonia is famous for it's high monster count and complex level design

Plutonia actually has a rather low monster count; but it gives off the impression of a higher monster count than it really has because it uses low-tier monsters less, and mid-tier or high-tier monsters more. Total numbers of placed monsters across all 32 levels in UV, for Doom II, TNT, and Plutonia, sorted by decreasing use in Plutonia. (Stats from Doom Wiki, it has appearance statistics for each monster type, e.g. barons here.)

MONSTER		Doom II		TNT: Evi	Plutonia

chainies	 273		 601		704
imps		1223		1357		436
revs		  90		 223		422
shotties	 483		1041		315
knights		  75		 110		151
mancs		  66		  84		140
pinkies		 331		 219		139
cacos		 188		  99		123
spectres	 175		 224		111
archies		  17		  38		 99
arachnos	  64		  57		 94
barons		  31		  61		 90
zombies		 290		 443		 86
painies		  64		  40		 74
skullies	 197		 264		 47
cybies		   5		   6		 23
spidies		   5		   3		  4

You can see that while both Doom II and TNT bust out over a thousand imps for you to kill, Plutonia has basically just about 1/3 of that number, and actually has less of them than it has chaingunners. On the other hand, revenants are the third most common enemy type, being only slightly less numerous than imps.

[Lysandus]

Yeah, that's what i wanted to say. Not particularly higher monster count, but rather higher level and more diverse, the latter of which i was afraid was lacking from PSX Plutonia. Anyway, i started a playthrough, and mostly my fears have been allayed. I did use the option of restoring spidies and archies to the levels, because i'm not interested in a faithful recreation of the PSX's limitations, and i think the mod suffers from trying to impose some of those limitations on itself. Instead, it would have been better having a best of both worlds approach: keeping the graphics and sounds of the PSX, and the enemies and level design of the PC. Even the user made maps keep some of those limitations, like fewer enemy types.

 

Still, as I said, i mostly like the conversion, from what i've played. I don't miss a few Mancubi and Pain Elementals here and there, but the worst omission is the lack of a Cyberdemon in MAP06: Baron's Lair. I know there wasn't a need for it in the PSX version, but in the PC campaign, that level acts as a boss level, and the Cyberdemon is even referenced in the post-mission text. Not having it kinda breaks the continuity. I don't know if other blatant omissions are present in later levels, i'll keep playing.

[Omega Tyrant]

29 minutes ago, Lysandus said:

Yeah, that's what i wanted to say. Not particularly higher monster count, but rather higher level and more diverse, the latter of which i was afraid was lacking from PSX Plutonia. Anyway, i started a playthrough, and mostly my fears have been allayed. I did use the option of restoring spidies and archies to the levels, because i'm not interested in a faithful recreation of the PSX's limitations, and i think the mod suffers from trying to impose some of those limitations on itself. Instead, it would have been better having a best of both worlds approach: keeping the graphics and sounds of the PSX, and the enemies and level design of the PC. Even the user made maps keep some of those limitations, like fewer enemy types.

 

Still, as I said, i mostly like the conversion, from what i've played. I don't miss a few Mancubi and Pain Elementals here and there, but the worst omission is the lack of a Cyberdemon in MAP06: Baron's Lair. I know there wasn't a need for it in the PSX version, but in the PC campaign, that level acts as a boss level, and the Cyberdemon is even referenced in the post-mission text. Not having it kinda breaks the continuity. I don't know if other blatant omissions are present in later levels, i'll keep playing.

Unfortunately the Cyberdemon in particular is going to often be missing on maps he was on originally, since he is a lot more complex than the the other non-Mastermind enemies (I recall from the Lost Levels thread that he took up nearly half of the Playstation's enemy RAM allotment alone) and thus enemy variety would really suffer on maps that Cybers appear in if not removed. I would like if PSXCE later adds the option to reenable missing Cyberdemons, he is not missing as badly as the Mastermind is but you still really notice the lack of Cyberdemons in the PSXfied maps, especially since Cybers tend to be pretty integral to the maps they were originally on (such as in your example).

[Lysandus]

Ok, so I finally played through the whole of Plutonia and, overall, I stick to my first impression. Most of the maps are pretty faithful conversions, and the overall experience is good, but there are some problems that i must address. 

 

As far as i could discern, the only maps that have any actual areas removed are some of the original PSX ones, but even those are minor, out of the way areas that i didn't even notice before doing a side by side comparison. There is, though, another difference when it comes to map design, that's rather more difficult to accept: most of the verticality of the larger maps has ben considerably toned down. Apparently the PSX can't render tall rooms, and the map designers decided they should keep that limitation even though in a PC mod there's no technical reason for that. The effect of this change is that some of the more epic maps from the original, are now rendered considerably less impressive. Where you had a room so huge that you couldn't even see the ceiling or the floor, and you had to navigate multiple rows of stairs to get anywhere, now there's just an average room, two or three levels tall, that's pretty flat, the stairs being replaced with normal platforms above a visible damaging floor. Overall it diminishes the awesomeness of some maps. One example that comes to mind is the Cyberdemon room in MAP31 Cyberden. The Cyberdemons in that map aren't visible anymore, so it lessens the impact of seeing 4 caged Cyberdemons that you know you'll have to fight at some point.

 

The other big problem is, as i've mentioned before, the omission of certain monsters, again, because of artificially enforced limitations. The Cyberdemons are mostly gone, and in the case of MAP06, that's a pretty bad omission. Pain elementals are mostly gone as well, and even though i hate to complain about the lack of such an annoying enemy, it does lessen the challenge of some encounters. Mancubi are mostly gone as well, but at least they're sometimes replaced with Revenants, which are more dangerous, so that balances it out a bit. And even though the menu has the option of adding Arch-Viles and Spiderdemons back, there are still some missing, and in case of Arch-Viles, some of the important ones. There's this brilliant trick that the Casali brothers pulled, of placing hidden Arch-Viles behind some enemies, so that whenever you killed that enemy, the Arch-Vile would immediately resurrect them, thus making it essentially a permanent obstacle in your way, until you figured out some way to reach the hidden Arch-Vile and kill him. None of those Arch-Viles were added back to the game. Also there's no Icon of Sin in the final map, making that final boss fight kinda meh. But you do get to finally fight a Cyberdemon... Yay, i guess...

 

The major consequence of all these changes is that the overall difficulty of the game is much lower. I played it on Ultra-Violence and i didn't even break a sweat. On the plus side, you could brag to have finished Plutonia on Ultra-Violence lol.

 

But, even though this post might appear ranty, i have to restate that o overall liked the mod. The graphics, sound, texture work and new music are all great and imo, it's a better sensory experience than vanilla, and the fact that it all comes prepackaged and easy to use is a big plus. It's just not the definitive version of Final Doom, and it could have been, had the devs not decide to stick to the limitations of a system that was even back in the day criticized for putting out a stripped down version of Doom. 

 

Doom64 CE, on the other hand, that one's great. Sorry Nightdive, but THIS is the definitive version of Doom64.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Lysandus

[NaliSeed]

6 hours ago, Lysandus said:

Ok, so I finally played through the whole of Plutonia and, overall, I stick to my first impression. Most of the maps are pretty faithful conversions, and the overall experience is good, but there are some problems that i must address. 

 

As far as i could discern, the only maps that have any actual areas removed are some of the original PSX ones, but even those are minor, out of the way areas that i didn't even notice before doing a side by side comparison. There is, though, another difference when it comes to map design, that's rather more difficult to accept: most of the verticality of the larger maps has ben considerably toned down. Apparently the PSX can't render tall rooms, and the map designers decided they should keep that limitation even though in a PC mod there's no technical reason for that. The effect of this change is that some of the more epic maps from the original, are now rendered considerably less impressive. Where you had a room so huge that you couldn't even see the ceiling or the floor, and you had to navigate multiple rows of stairs to get anywhere, now there's just an average room, two or three levels tall, that's pretty flat, the stairs being replaced with normal platforms above a visible damaging floor. Overall it diminishes the awesomeness of some maps. One example that comes to mind is the Cyberdemon room in MAP31 Cyberden. The Cyberdemons in that map aren't visible anymore, so it lessens the impact of seeing 4 caged Cyberdemons that you know you'll have to fight at some point.

 

The other big problem is, as i've mentioned before, the omission of certain monsters, again, because of artificially enforced limitations. The Cyberdemons are mostly gone, and in the case of MAP06, that's a pretty bad omission. Pain elementals are mostly gone as well, and even though i hate to complain about the lack of such an annoying enemy, it does lessen the challenge of some encounters. Mancubi are mostly gone as well, but at least they're sometimes replaced with Revenants, which are more dangerous, so that balances it out a bit. And even though the menu has the option of adding Arch-Viles and Spiderdemons back, there are still some missing, and in case of Arch-Viles, some of the important ones. There's this brilliant trick that the Casali brothers pulled, of placing hidden Arch-Viles behind some enemies, so that whenever you killed that enemy, the Arch-Vile would immediately resurrect them, thus making it essentially a permanent obstacle in your way, until you figured out some way to reach the hidden Arch-Vile and kill him. None of those Arch-Viles were added back to the game. Also there's no Icon of Sin in the final map, making that final boss fight kinda meh. But you do get to finally fight a Cyberdemon... Yay, i guess...

 

The major consequence of all these changes is that the overall difficulty of the game is much lower. I played it on Ultra-Violence and i didn't even break a sweat. On the plus side, you could brag to have finished Plutonia on Ultra-Violence lol.

 

But, even though this post might appear ranty, i have to restate that o overall liked the mod. The graphics, sound, texture work and new music are all great and imo, it's a better sensory experience than vanilla, and the fact that it all comes prepackaged and easy to use is a big plus. It's just not the definitive version of Final Doom, and it could have been, had the devs not decide to stick to the limitations of a system that was even back in the day criticized for putting out a stripped down version of Doom. 

 

Doom64 CE, on the other hand, that one's great. Sorry Nightdive, but THIS is the definitive version of Doom64.

 

Couldn't agree more with that last part, which is why it baffles me that almost every Doom 64 wad that comes out runs solely on Nightdive's version and doesn't work with this ☹️

[Immorpher]

1 hour ago, NaliSeed said:

Couldn't agree more with that last part, which is why it baffles me that almost every Doom 64 wad that comes out runs solely on Nightdive's version and doesn't work with this ☹️

For a long time GZDoom didn't support basic Doom 64 things like gradient lighting, so we learned the vanilla Doom 64 way of doing things. And unfortunately GZDoom doesn't support the Doom 64 mapping format, so we can't easily translate our Doom 64 way over to the engine (like macro scripting).

In an interesting tidbit! We had a vote whether Ethereal Breakdown should be a Doom 64 Retribution /  CE mod or a Doom 64 EX / Doom 64 Remaster mod. It was overwhelmingly voted to go for the latter and the more native Doom 64 mapping format (since it was to honor the 25th anniversary of the game). The idea was it could be adapted to GZDoom later, but we ended up using so many Doom 64 specific quirks that it has made it hard to translate over.

[Omega Tyrant]

17 hours ago, Lysandus said:

 It's just not the definitive version of Final Doom, and it could have been, had the devs not decide to stick to the limitations of a system that was even back in the day criticized for putting out a stripped down version of Doom.

 

Well these maps are from the PSX Doom: The Lost Levels project, which had the explicit goal of showing what these maps could have been like on the actual Playstation if the official Final Doom Playstation port wasn't a rushed cashgrab that scrapped most of the maps, rather than trying to be some "definitive version of Final Doom". If you want essentially just the PC maps with colored lighting, you would have to get another project started up for that (which I don't think is a bad idea itself, I do find it a bummer going back to the original maps and not having any colored lighting).

[Individualised]

On 2/11/2023 at 12:43 PM, molecicco said:

 

How were you able to get filtering on the game world without it affecting the HUD? This is the last piece I'm missing for a "truly" vanilla Doom 64 experience in GZDoom.

[RichardDS90]

Has there ever been plans to use the GEC version of the Lost Levels instead of the original version?