Talking to people you don't like

[EraserheadBaby]

TLDR at the bottom of the post. 

 

 

Life is full of difficult people.  Maybe they have a hateful ideology.  Maybe they have a class b personality disorder like narcissism or psychopathy.  Perhaps they are dangerously stupid.  Maybe they’re just a douche bag.  It’s hard to tell sometimes.  In all of reality, the slice that we can survive in is just a line on a pie chart, and the part of life that most find enjoyable is just 1% of that line.  Life is rough and it can make you a monster.  It’s important to learn to cope with people who suck because, and this is important, we are all the asshole to someone else.  Hell, there are people who hate the Dali Lama. 

 

I’m talking about this because there’s been so much breakdown in communication in recent years.  Many people have very firm stances on things (often things they don’t understand), and they refuse to listen to the opposing side.  Without communication to solve problems, we are left with a few options.  Violence, extortion, and siege (which is kind of extortion).  There’s probably more, but none of them are good. 

 

About 2 years ago I was at my dealer’s house.  We’re passing a blunt and another customer walks in.  A nazi.  And I don’t mean a “they don’t agree with every woke thing I say” kind of nazi.  I mean fresh out of prison, swastika tattoo on the neck nazi.  The guy obviously had some kind of learning disability and I don’t say that because of his tattoo.  He had speech difficulties, one eye wasn’t quite looking straight, he glanced around the room like a little bird, and he didn’t understand why gravity didn’t make water fall off the “bottom” of the earth.  Something was up with him beyond the tattoo. 

 

So, we start passing the blunt with this guy.  I ignore the tattoo and make no mention of it.  I just casually start talking about my ex-wife.  She’s a Jew with dual US/Israeli citizenship whose sister is a Rabbi.   I reflected on all the good times I’d had with her.  How her family treated me with more respect and dignity than my own family ever had.  I talked about how, in my experience, the Jews had solid values of family, hard work, education, charity, and equality.  I talked about how they appreciated my handyman nature, since their educated asses couldn’t fix a sink if their life depended on it.  Although I was different, and dropped out of college, they didn’t look down on me. Except my mother-in-law.  But that’s mother-in-laws.

 

I’m a tall, blue eyed, white guy, so he listened to me.  He did not interrupt and he did not at any point show signs of aggression.  He was tolerant of what I was saying.  He listened to me.  I’m not saying the guy dropped to his knees and begged for a belt sander for his tattoo, but I could tell by looking at him that he was internalizing the information he was receiving.  It was giving him pause for thought.  It planted a seed of doubt.  That’s about all you can hope for, but hopefully the seed grows. 

 

 

tldr: I talked to a nazi about all the good times I had with my Jewish ex-wife and her family.  It seemed to plant a seed of doubt in his mind

Edited November 30, 2023 by EraserheadBaby

[aloysiusfreeman]

tldr: conversations at a dealers house can bring change to the world

[RDETalus]

9 hours ago, EraserheadBaby said:

I’m a tall, blue eyed, white guy, so he listened to me.

lol. That's what they call "Nixon goes to China." It's a very strong persuasive position. People are, somewhat paradoxically, the most persuasive when supporting an idea that clashes with their other established ideas.

Edited November 30, 2023 by RDETalus

[Captain red pants]

Did he talk about his life much?

[EraserheadBaby]

2 hours ago, Captain red pants said:

Did he talk about his life much?

No.  He mentioned he was on parole but not house arrest.  Then he went in the back, got his bag and left.

[EraserheadBaby]

@RDETalusI knew that was gonna be the first quote someone pulled from it.

[dasho]

14 hours ago, EraserheadBaby said:

The guy obviously had some kind of learning disability and I don’t say that because of his tattoo.  He had speech difficulties, one eye wasn’t quite looking straight, he glanced around the room like a little bird, and he didn’t understand why gravity didn’t make water fall off the “bottom” of the earth.  Something was up with him beyond the tattoo. 

 

This is just kind of a sad story overall. How do you know that he internalized anything you were talking about and wasn't just a mentally disabled guy getting stoned and not responding to you?

[EraserheadBaby]

Just now, dasho said:

 

This is just kind of a sad story overall. How do you know that he internalized anything you were talking about and wasn't just a mentally disabled guy getting stoned and not responding to you?

It is a sad story.  Appalachia makes killer folk music for a reason.

 

It was just the vibe I got from him.  The look on his face.  He was scowling at me a little bit at first but he eventually started scowling at the floor.  When he looked at me again he had softened up, his eyes were a bit wider, he looked confused.  Maybe he was just bored.  Maybe he'd never heard someone say anything like that and his brain didn't know what to do with it.  Like the first time I had good Indian food.  Again, it was the vibe I got from him.  Also, just because someone is slow doesn't mean they don't understand simple stories. He was smart enough to drive a car.  He had money to purchase goods.  He picked up what I put down, to some degree. 

[Sonikkumania]

I don't like to talking to people who simply refuse to have a debate and go into "lalalala i can't hear you" mode,

so nowadays I don't even talk to them. They can be found everywhere.

[Captain red pants]

3 hours ago, EraserheadBaby said:

It was just the vibe I got from him.  The look on his face.  He was scowling at me a little bit at first but he eventually started scowling at the floor.  When he looked at me again he had softened up, his eyes were a bit wider, he looked confused.  Maybe he was just bored.  Maybe he'd never heard someone say anything like that and his brain didn't know what to do with it.

I guess it's not impossible that you're the first white man to politely explain that Jews are good actually, but in my view, it's probably dawning on him that the aryan brotherhood shit's not going to be useful on the outside if people don't mind telling you about their Jewish ex-wife to a stranger with a swastika tattoo. He's probably not sure what to do with that information.

Don't feel too bad though, he might decide to get that shit off his neck for purely practical reasons. A lot of places will cover it for free.

[RDETalus]

5 hours ago, EraserheadBaby said:

It was just the vibe I got from him.  The look on his face.  He was scowling at me a little bit at first but he eventually started scowling at the floor.  When he looked at me again he had softened up, his eyes were a bit wider, he looked confused.

How old was this guy? It sounds like he went to a jail at a young age for a long time and got sucked up into the gang culture to survive. Now he has no idea how to interact with the normal world.

[EraserheadBaby]

5 hours ago, Captain red pants said:

I guess it's not impossible that you're the first white man to politely explain that Jews are good actually, but in my view, it's probably dawning on him that the aryan brotherhood shit's not going to be useful on the outside if people don't mind telling you about their Jewish ex-wife to a stranger with a swastika tattoo. He's probably not sure what to do with that information.

Don't feel too bad though, he might decide to get that shit off his neck for purely practical reasons. A lot of places will cover it for free.

It's a possibility. Though people have a tendency to stick to bubbles.  I doubt he'd heard something like that in a social setting before.  Maybe at the shrinks office. I believe it made him a bit uncomfortable.  He just glanced at me and didn't say anything as he left.  I don't know his name either.  I didn't really want to get to know him.  That's about all I remember about it. 

 

Why would I feel bad?

 

4 hours ago, RDETalus said:

How old was this guy? It sounds like he went to a jail at a young age for a long time and got sucked up into the gang culture to survive. Now he has no idea how to interact with the normal world. 

Hard to tell how hold the guy was.  I'd guess mid twenties with some meth age on him.  but he could have been in his mid thirties.  I'd guess you're right about him being in jail from a young age.

 

I don't remember much else about it.  The whole interaction was less than 5 minutes from start to finish. 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by EraserheadBaby

[EraserheadBaby]

6 hours ago, Sonikkumania said:

I don't like to talking to people who simply refuse to have a debate and go into "lalalala i can't hear you" mode,

so nowadays I don't even talk to them. They can be found everywhere.

I can understand that.

[ClumsyDoomer]

Pretty sure you took that conversation more seriously than he did. It's very ironic anyway. Not only you started teaching a random dude and trying some sort of "seed" on him, but did that by pretending to casually reminisce about your personal life without context (?). Boasting a manipulation game... with a passerby junkie... from 2 years ago. 

From the thread title I was gonna say "I'm good at talking to people i don't like, 5 seconds and they never come close to me again", but siege, extortion, what the hell is it all about? Collision avoidance solves problems without communication, just as much as communication itself.

[EraserheadBaby]

25 minutes ago, ClumsyDoomer said:

Collision avoidance solves problems without communication, just as much as communication itself.

Thanks for adding to the list. 

 

As for boasting a manipulation game, that seems harsh.  I love how I can post something about trying to convert a nazi away from hate, and you have taken issue with it.  This is what I mean by communication breakdown.  People are so excited to assume the worst and try to tear someone else down that they miss the message.  I didn't post this to be self stroking.  It was just a story from my past that came to mind, and I thought people may find it interesting and have their own stories to tell. 

[Noiser]

4 hours ago, ClumsyDoomer said:

Not only you started teaching a random dude and trying some sort of "seed" on him, but did that by pretending to casually reminisce about your personal life without context (?). Boasting a manipulation game... with a passerby junkie...

The fact that they tried to communicate something positive to a nazi bastard was kind enough already, because what he truly deserved was a punch in the guts.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Noiser

[ClumsyDoomer]

31 minutes ago, Noiser said:

The fact that he tried to communicate something positive to a nazi bastard was kind enough already, because what he truly deserved was a punch in the guts.

For just the tattoo? A frail skew eyed junkie, potentially disabled? He's basically a living joke. And how many of them have you punched already?

1 hour ago, EraserheadBaby said:

As for boasting a manipulation game, that seems harsh.

Yeah, it's more harsh than should've been, sorry. True about assuming the worst, but that's killing me no less than it's killing others

Here wearing any sort of sociopolitical insignia isn't considered cool by anyone and swastika specifically can get you into jail. So it's just stupid in the first place - i won't talk nor listen not because of "hate" but because of the recklessness. Good that everyone here is less prone to immediate collision of views/interests like this, though.

But yeah, such people, like the one you described, they're way more... complicated than you may be thinking, and apart from that 5 minute talk, it will take him years of rehab and therapy to get a chance in the actual society. The swastika is not his biggest problem.

[Chezza]

@EraserheadBaby to be fair, I shared the same impression as @ClumsyDoomer's first post. A random person whom you never met and know nothing about, but clearly can identify his controversial extreme ideology via a tattoo walks in to smoke a blunt and you chose to subtly discuss your past relationship with a Jewish women.

 

Without a doubt on my mind you had a little agenda in mind, or a morbid curiosity, be it good intentioned or not, but you opted to gently stoke the fire a little and feeling proud (this thread) of a neutral or positive outcome.

 

If we are way off on your intentions then... well there is possibly an ironic outcome somewhere in the underlying message of this thread about effective communication haha

[DNSKILL5]

I have to talk and deal with people I don’t like as a job (security), so I sort of look at it like acting a part or role. They never see the real me. 

[Noiser]

1 hour ago, ClumsyDoomer said:

For just the tattoo? A frail skew eyed junkie, potentially disabled? He's basically a living joke. And how many of them have you punched already?

Oh, poor nazi.

I'm latino. How do you expect me to react? These people literally want me dead for being a "sub-human" in their eyes. No, there's no negotiation here. I applaud OP for their calm approuch and patience, but no one is obligated to show tolerance to this kind of people.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Noiser

[EraserheadBaby]

2 hours ago, Chezza said:

@EraserheadBaby to be fair, I shared the same impression as @ClumsyDoomer's first post. A random person whom you never met and know nothing about, but clearly can identify his controversial extreme ideology via a tattoo walks in to smoke a blunt and you chose to subtly discuss your past relationship with a Jewish women.

 

Without a doubt on my mind you had a little agenda in mind, or a morbid curiosity, be it good intentioned or not, but you opted to gently stoke the fire a little and feeling proud (this thread) of a neutral or positive outcome.

 

If we are way off on your intentions then... well there is possibly an ironic outcome somewhere in the underlying message of this thread about effective communication haha 

I don't think it's complex or organized enough to be an agenda.  More like, "just try not to hate people".  I don't remember morbid curiosity being part of the mix, but I wouldn't put it past me.  I don't know that I'm proud of it.  It's just a thing I did.  I thought people might find it interesting and post their own stories.

 

I was trying to get a point across to a mentally challenged nazi, so yeah, the communication was a little forced.  Still, genuine though. I told no lies and I just wanted to reach out to this guy as effectively as possible in the short amount of time I had available.  I never saw him again.  So yeah, it was motivated, targeted speech to get a point across.  I fail to see the problem.  I don't have a lot of power.  I'm a loser.  But I still want to try and do things.  Life is full of side quests.  Was it the perfect way to get it done?  Probably not, but I'm not Morgan Freeman.

 

To everyone who's wishing I'd followed him out to his car and stomped him, I can understand that.  But you don't fight at your dealers house.  I don't want to have to deal with police.  And it would likely deepen his resolve.  Still, if you punched one, I'd smile. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by EraserheadBaby

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

5 hours ago, Noiser said:

The fact that they tried to communicate something positive to a nazi bastard was kind enough already, because what he truly deserved was a punch in the guts.

People like that have already been punched so many times that it does no good other than adding more brain damage. They tattoo that shit on their neck/face because they want people to look at them, and they know that eventually someone will confront them, and they know there's a good chance that it'll lead to a fight. And people who go around looking for a fight always get their head kicked in. Then their ego gets hurt and they pull a weapon on someone and go (back) to prison where they get their head kicked in some more. Rinse and repeat. So the next time you see one of these people on the street, rest assured that they probably won't be on the street for long. Some of them are legitimately mentally ill to a severe extent, others are just legitimately stupid and choose to life that kind of life. Either way, they usually don't last long in public.

[Captain red pants]

11 hours ago, EraserheadBaby said:

Why would I feel bad?

Good point, 'don't feel like you've wasted an effort' would probably be a better fit for what I'm trying to say
 

[jerrysheppy]

How representative do you think your anecdote is likely to be of the wider world of social communication?

Slightly more snarkily put: How many people are there in 2023 who are just waiting to have their minds blown by the completely new informational input that Being A Nazi Is Bad, Actually?

[EraserheadBaby]

Just now, jerrysheppy said:

How representative do you think your anecdote is likely to be of the wider world of social communication?

Slightly more snarkily put: How many people are there in 2023 who are just waiting to have their minds blown by the completely new informational input that Being A Nazi Is Bad, Actually?

That wasn't really the point.  That was just the example for the idea of simply trying to reach out to people to bridge a gap in understanding.  And things hit differently in person than they do on the internet. 

 

However, if you would like to share something more representative of this point, please do.  That's the idea. 

[jerrysheppy]

I unfortunately(?) don't have any anecdotes that bear as directly and personally on this sort of case as yours, sorry!

In any case, I apologize if I misunderstood your intent in making this post—it seemed to me like you were trying to imply that this sort of encounter was worthy of serious consideration as a vehicle for social change, or even just for individual change.  Which makes it valid to ask the question of how broadly useful it's actually likely to be.  But if I missed the mark in my evaluation, then mea culpa, I suppose.

[EraserheadBaby]

Just now, jerrysheppy said:

I unfortunately(?) don't have any anecdotes that bear as directly and personally on this sort of case as yours, sorry!

In any case, I apologize if I misunderstood your intent in making this post—it seemed to me like you were trying to imply that this sort of encounter was worthy of serious consideration as a vehicle for social change, or even just for individual change.  Which makes it valid to ask the question of how broadly useful it's actually likely to be.  But if I missed the mark in my evaluation, then mea culpa, I suppose.

 

It doesn't have to be as extreme of an example. Just a reasonably civil ideological disagreement of any kind. I've got other ones, but I thought that one would be the most entertaining.

 

As for it being a vehicle for social or individual change, idk.  I sometimes think of society as a huge animal with people as cells.  If all the individual cells are staying copacetic, then the whole is better and vice versa.  I doubt what I did had a negative impact.  The positive, if there was any, would not be huge.  But I'm not huge either (lol).  The point is that it's important to try to stay calm and talk to people. We seem to be more divided than any time in my life and we need to keep talking.

 

Sorry I came off like a bad after school special.

[Captain red pants]

6 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

Slightly more snarkily put: How many people are there in 2023 who are just waiting to have their minds blown by the completely new informational input that Being A Nazi Is Bad, Actually?

I'll be honest, this is close to where I sat when I first read this thread, but thinking about it, some of these guys genuinely think that most people are as secretly super racist as they are but are too afraid to say anything. Normal people avoiding confrontation and pretending to listen to them when they start their shit sort of feeds into that a bit, and because it's pretty easy to convince yourself that being visibly angry is the same as being unreasonable, they can dismiss the people who do tell them to go fuck themselves.

Some dude casually talking about his life like that can clue them in that a lot of people don't think that way and might move the needle.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Captain red pants

[RDETalus]

It's certainly a hilarious situation. I've been in weirder though. One time I was in an auditorium with Richard Spencer and a dozen nazis (some in uniforms and armbands) and I asked them what they would do if I refuse to be deported lol

[ebrl]

I thought I'd drop a simple "there's too many people I don't dislike in this world to willingly stop and talk to the ones I do if I have the chance not to" after seeing the title, but after reading OP's story, this goes way beyond what I was expecting. Things can already be weird enough out there without actively trying to get stabbed by some random psycho.