Doom Marine
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Which projectile travels faster: BFG or Plasma gun?
 
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 09:33. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
KiiiYiiiKiiiA
Senior Member


Posts: 1423
Registered: 04-11


Or do they both travel at the same speed? I was messing around with those two just today and it suddenly occurred to me to wonder which traveled faster. And then it occurred to me that I couldn't actually tell one way or the other.

Obviously the Plasma shot will get to its destination quicker seeing as the BFG has a charge-up time, but I am purely talking about the relative 'airspeed' here.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 11-14-12 at 23:33

Old Post 11-14-12 23:28 #
KiiiYiiiKiiiA is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Edward850
Member


Posts: 424
Registered: 08-07


They both move at 25 units (or 25*FRACUNIT). So neither the BFGBall or PlasmaBall is faster.

Old Post 11-15-12 00:06 #
Edward850 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12755
Registered: 07-06


Surprisingly (for me, at least), the wiki gives their velocity as equal, at 25 map units per tic. I never noticed, and wouldn't be able to tell that. The ball's size is deceiving O_o

Old Post 11-15-12 00:07 #
Maes is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Avoozl
Forum Staple


Posts: 2718
Registered: 06-09


Well the bfg projectiles size probably balances out with its higher amount of power than the plasma projectile.

Old Post 11-15-12 00:16 #
Avoozl is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Rizera
Member


Posts: 589
Registered: 12-07


How about the Rocket? 25 units as well?

Also, I was always in doubt, of which weapon killed the non-splash damage takers (Cybie/Spider Mastermind) faster, the rocket or the Plasma?

__________________
You are very welcome to watch my Doom speed demos: http://www.youtube.com/user/1ntru

Old Post 11-15-12 00:45 #
Rizera is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Edward850
Member


Posts: 424
Registered: 08-07



Rizera said:
How about the Rocket? 25 units as well?

20.

Old Post 11-15-12 01:01 #
Edward850 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Nomad
Not dumb enough to get a custom title


Posts: 2745
Registered: 04-04


20 map units per tic? No wonder doomguy regularly outruns them, can't he run like 50 per tic?

Old Post 11-15-12 01:40 #
Nomad is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
TimeOfDeath
Forum Regular


Posts: 2754
Registered: 06-06


He can outrun rockets but not plasma/bfg, unless wallrunning.


Rizera said:
Also, I was always in doubt, of which weapon killed the non-splash damage takers (Cybie/Spider Mastermind) faster, the rocket or the Plasma?

wepsvcybspd.zip

Old Post 11-15-12 01:49 #
TimeOfDeath is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Rizera
Member


Posts: 589
Registered: 12-07



TimeOfDeath said:
wepsvcybspd.zip

Thanks a lot for making these wads!! Now I got the answer. :)

__________________
You are very welcome to watch my Doom speed demos: http://www.youtube.com/user/1ntru

Old Post 11-15-12 02:45 #
Rizera is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
KiiiYiiiKiiiA
Senior Member


Posts: 1423
Registered: 04-11



TimeOfDeath said:
He can outrun rockets but not plasma/bfg, unless wallrunning.


wepsvcybspd.zip



Wallrunning allows you to outrun plasma and BFG shots? Whoah. T.I.L...

Old Post 11-16-12 11:14 #
KiiiYiiiKiiiA is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12755
Registered: 07-06



TimeOfDeath said:
He can outrun rockets but not plasma/bfg, unless wallrunning.


Yeah, but even rocket outrunning requires doing the SR-40 trick.


Nomadsaid:
20 map units per tic? No wonder doomguy regularly outruns them, can't he run like 50 per tic?



Not really.


  • Running: 16.666 mu/tic
  • Walking: 8.333 mu/tic
  • Strafe-running: 13.333 mu/tic
  • Strafe-walking: 7.9999 mu/tic
  • SR-40 effective: 21.34 mu/tic
  • Wallrunning: ~30 mu/tic(CAPPED BY MAXMOVE)


Source: My definitive Doomguy effective speed calculations, measured with an in-game speed-o-meter.

Old Post 11-16-12 11:32 #
Maes is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
GhostlyDeath
Forum Retard


Posts: 1027
Registered: 08-05



Maes said:
[*]Wallrunning: ~30 mu/tic(CAPPED BY MAXMOVE)
[/list]



I've gone faster than that wallrunning.

Old Post 11-16-12 14:34 #
GhostlyDeath is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12755
Registered: 07-06



GhostlyDeath said:
I've gone faster than that wallrunning.


Not in a unmodified port implementing the vanilla mechanics, you didn't. There's an active speed capping imposed by the MAXMOVE constant (30* FRACUNIT) in P_XYMovement, so even if you force Doomguy's speed to exceed that limit somehow (by forcing momx/momy), it will not actually be applied but instead be capped before even applying damping or friction.

If there's another mechanism in place that can affect doomguy's position that does NOT pass through P_XYMovement (other than teleporting), I am not aware of it.

But don't take my word for it. As a source port author yourself, you could implement a speed-o-meter and measure the effective map speed yourself (not just the momentary impulse values assigned to momx/momy).

Edit: looking at P_XYMovement again, I realized that the caps only apply to each direction separately, so it's possible to get an effective 42.2 mu/tic if you manage to wallrun at a perfect 45 degree angle...but wallrunning is very hard to trigger on non 0 or 90 degree walls. Or at least I didn't have a chance to test that when I took the measurements: running along 0 and 90 degree walls was capped to 30 mu/tic.

Last edited by Maes on 11-16-12 at 15:50

Old Post 11-16-12 15:42 #
Maes is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Grazza
Let's try Caesium


Posts: 12496
Registered: 07-02


In this post I referenced a demo featuring a running speed of 40 units per tic when "thing running" along the west->east axis. I don't think this is particularly unusual (the speed boost when wallrunning compared to normal strafe-50 - i.e. 23 upgt - feels very large) - it's just something I could reference without additional research.

If you're right about the 30 upgt cap, it might relate just to the player's movement (forward and sideways), and not the map axes. For further empirical testing, I'd suggest Looper's recent built demos (such as this one). If nothing he does there produces a speed of more than 42 upgt, then that would be rather suggestive.

Old Post 11-16-12 19:09 #
Grazza is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
GhostlyDeath
Forum Retard


Posts: 1027
Registered: 08-05



Grazza said:
In this post I referenced a demo featuring a running speed of 40 units per tic when "thing running" along the west->east axis. I don't think this is particularly unusual (the speed boost when wallrunning compared to normal strafe-50 - i.e. 23 upgt - feels very large) - it's just something I could reference without additional research)


Thing running is much faster than wall running and is usually much easier to perform. Especially in Coop situations, you can thing run off another Doomer, in fact both Doomers can do so at the same time. So you could probably beat MAP01 in maybe 4 seconds doing this.


Maes said:
Not in a unmodified port implementing the vanilla mechanics, you didn't. There's an active speed capping imposed by the MAXMOVE constant (30* FRACUNIT) in P_XYMovement, so even if you force Doomguy's speed to exceed that limit somehow (by forcing momx/momy), it will not actually be applied but instead be capped before even applying damping or friction.


In an unmodified port implementing the vanilla mechanics, yes I did.

Also, I measured actual distance between tics rather than momentums, but only on a two dimensional plane.

Old Post 11-16-12 19:26 #
GhostlyDeath is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12755
Registered: 07-06



Grazza said:
If you're right about the 30 upgt cap, it might relate just to the player's movement (forward and sideways), and not the map axes.


Well, it's hardcoded and out there for public scrutiny :-p

However, it applies only to the x and y axes separately -not to their vector sum, which, per-se, is uncapped. However, its contituents momx/momy are not.

If you perform a "vanilla" wallrun accross a perfectly N/S or W/E wall, then only one of the axes will be activated significantly, hence the 30 mu/tic cap I measured. If there's a slope, then both axes can be activated, with a maximum possible vector sum of ca. 42.2 mu/tic.

This is also the reason why -among others- Doomguy can't reach the "nominal" impulse speed of 50 mu/tic.


GhostlyDeath said:
In an unmodified port implementing the vanilla mechanics, yes I did.

Also, I measured actual distance between tics rather than momentums, but only on a two dimensional plane.



I think I addressed those points in my edit. The individual momx/momy components are still capped at 30 mu/tics, and while their vector sum can reach 42.2 mu/tics, in theory the places where this would be possible should be few and far between (executing a perfect wallrun on a wall with a 45 degree y/x slope). Wallrunning strictly on one of the x or y axis would result in the single component 30 mu/tic cap.

My measurements also came from distance (x-y) euclidean measurements but as I said, I didn't exactly push the wallrunning scenarios. In the few places in IWADs where I know it's possible (e.g. MAP01 corridor, E2M8 perimeter) it never went beyond 30 mu/tic.

Last edited by Maes on 11-16-12 at 19:36

Old Post 11-16-12 19:26 #
Maes is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
TimeOfDeath
Forum Regular


Posts: 2754
Registered: 06-06



GhostlyDeath said:
Thing running is much faster than wall running and is usually much easier to perform.

I know you mean wallrunning against a solid wall, but wall running against an impassible 2-sided line gives the same effect as thingrunning, right?

Old Post 11-16-12 19:35 #
TimeOfDeath is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
marineController
Mini-Member


Posts: 58
Registered: 08-12


In Looper's demo that Grazza referenced both Indigo and Red achieve 60mu/tic on MAP30.
High speeds (>32mu/tic) are also necessary to be able to run through blocking lines / solid walls.

Old Post 11-16-12 21:56 #
marineController is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12755
Registered: 07-06



marineController said:
In Looper's demo that Grazza referenced both Indigo and Red achieve 60mu/tic on MAP30.


Can you provide a measurement procedure/actual speed logging for that or explain how such a speed could be achieved through Doom's movement routines? Speed per axis can't exceed 30 mu/tics, even if their vector sum can, but of course even this DOES puts an absolute top cap of 42 mu/tic.

Unless you count teleporting...that can be up to 32k mu/tic fast in every direction ;-)

Maybe techniques such as gliding or pathological map geometry can run afoul of P_XYMovement's checks and bypass the MAXMOVE limit?

Old Post 11-16-12 22:40 #
Maes is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
jongo
Member


Posts: 311
Registered: 07-07


xdre outputs speed/momentum/coordinate values, check map30 in that demo around tic 22250 to witness speed 60. Map29 start is good as well (42+ along one axis), there could be more examples. Map29 utilizes wall wobble trick to build up speed and then uses buddyrunning (wallrunning off the other player while he's wallrunning off you).
And seems like it only can be done in coop? Normal wallrunning essentially doubles your speed, and probably buddyrunning throws in another doubling factor as well.

Old Post 11-17-12 02:59 #
jongo is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 09:33. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
 
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Which projectile travels faster: BFG or Plasma gun?

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.