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Memfis
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Bob Evans said:
One name comes to mind. Lisa Moore who was a very avid player and
mapper back in the day although calling her a Doom chick might be
a bad choice.


are you THAT Bob Evans? (Eternal Doom, Odessa, etc) If the answer is "yes", please post the Odessa wads. :)

Old Post 12-22-13 14:31 #
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Bob Evans
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Memfis:

Yes I am the obtuse SOB that made those levels.
Why would you want those old Odessa levels? They are extremely simple wads. I would have to dig thru a bunch of old HDs and CDs. Maybe I still have them?
Hurricane Ivan in 2004 claimed a lot of Computer junk I am afraid.

Old Post 12-22-13 15:15 #
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Memfis
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Wow, welcome to Doomworld!
Many people love the Odessa series for your unique puzzle style and other creative ideas. However, there is a problem: in the readme files provided you wrote something like "these files shouldn't be distributed outside of Compuserve forums". Because of that people aren't even allowed to link to them. And the admins here on Doomworld are very serious about Copyright and stuff like that and might even ban people for distributing something without permission. So can you please finally give the permission to distribute these wads? We've been looking for them for years, believe it or not! :)

Old Post 12-22-13 15:34 #
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fraggle
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First, welcome to Doomworld!

Bob Evans said:
Memfis:

Yes I am the obtuse SOB that made those levels.
Why would you want those old Odessa levels? They are extremely simple wads. I would have to dig thru a bunch of old HDs and CDs. Maybe I still have them?
Hurricane Ivan in 2004 claimed a lot of Computer junk I am afraid.

It might surprise you but they are very highly sought-after. Other than Odessa 14 most of them seem to be (publicly) lost, though some collectors seem to have them in their private collections. I retrieved a couple of them from old shovelware CDs.

Part of the problem is that the text files said that they were only allowed to be distributed on Compuserve, which now no longer exists. If you could at least clarify that it's perfectly fine to distribute them elsewhere, that would help a lot.

Here's a video of someone playing through ODESSA_1.WAD. Read the video description.

Old Post 12-22-13 16:22 #
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Bob Evans
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Memfis,
Well, I found Odessa 1 and 13 fairly quickly which surprised me.
As I recall there were 9 of the 14 (?) which were released on CompuServe. The other 5 or 6 I abandoned, except for 1 I just recently resurrected. The others I didn't like the direction they were going. 1 level went to Eternal (Silures).
The text file will have to be changed for distribution I guess.
"Available for download ONLY from Doomworld Archives and it's mirrors" should be OK?
I will keep checking on the others.
I prefer not making them TOTALLY freely distributable because a lot us at CompuServe back then really got annoyed with CDs coming out charging money for what was intended to be free.
Doom add on levels were meant to be free, IMO.

This post got way way off topic I know. I apologize.

Old Post 12-22-13 16:23 #
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fraggle
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Bob Evans said:
I found Odessa 1 and 13 fairly quickly which surprised me.
If you found them here, that's my website - I got those off old shovelware CDs as mentioned. Obviously I'm distributing those in violation of the terms in the text file, and I hope you don't mind - Compuserve no longer exists so I made the decision to put them there anyway with the assumption that you'd probably rather see them still available than lost forever. They're obviously historically relevant - Odessa 14 is listed in the Doomworld top 100 WADs of all time list.

No disrespect is intended and if for some reason you'd prefer I remove them then just say so and I'll do so immediately.


Bob Evans said:

"Available for download ONLY from Doomworld Archives and it's mirrors" should be OK?
I will keep checking on the others.
I prefer not making them TOTALLY freely distributable because a lot us at CompuServe back then really got annoyed with CDs coming out charging money for what was intended to be free.
Doom add on levels were meant to be free, IMO.

The sentiment is understandable, but it would be better to just say something like "You may distribute this as much as you want, as long as it is not for commercial gain". Who knows if Doomworld or the idgames archive will be around in 5 years from now? If they aren't then we have the exact same problem all over again.

Old Post 12-22-13 16:27 #
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Gez
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Bob Evans said:
"Available for download ONLY from Doomworld Archives and it's mirrors" should be OK?

No, because it should be "its". :p


Bob Evans said:
I will keep checking on the others.
I prefer not making them TOTALLY freely distributable because a lot us at CompuServe back then really got annoyed with CDs coming out charging money for what was intended to be free.


Honestly, I really doubt the risk of them getting on shovelware CDs now is anything higher than "non-existent".

You could use the same kind of licensing terms as Hacx:

Hacx can now be distributed freely by any site that wishes to host it. Also, any site that wishes to create a distribution area for files, mods, bug fixes, etc., please, feel free to do so.

Hacx is now a royalty free item. This means that Hacx may NOT be used to generate income of any kind nor can it be used to promote any activity that would generate income.

Old Post 12-22-13 16:33 #
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fraggle
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For reference, previous threads about the Odessa WADs:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mo...-odessa-levels/
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mo...s-by-bob-evans/

Old Post 12-22-13 16:37 #
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Memfis
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Gez said:
Honestly, I really doubt the risk of them getting on shovelware CDs now is anything higher than "non-existent".

Well, remember the case when someone stole the resources from "A Fistful of Doom" and some other wads and made a commercial western style game for iPhone? And that was maybe one year ago, so the risk definitely still exists and Bob's position is perfectly understandable. But yes, tying the distribution rights to Doomworld only is probably a bad idea because what if it becomes unavailable in the future? Then we will face the same problem again...

Old Post 12-22-13 17:06 #
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Bob Evans
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Fraggle and Gez,
Thanks for all the info.
I am having trouble grasping this "historic" thingie about the Odessa
levels. I now consider them pretty much junk and almost embarrassing.

Fraggle,
Those 2 levels I got from your site. Thanks. They are fine where they are.:)

Not to change the subject.....oops too late........are Chris, Rich, Paul, Jim Flynn or anyone from Team TNT still around? Ty is still here I know.

Old Post 12-22-13 17:09 #
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fraggle
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Bob Evans said:
Fraggle and Gez,
Thanks for all the info.
I am having trouble grasping this "historic" thingie about the Odessa
levels. I now consider them pretty much junk and almost embarrassing.

Well, I can't comment on most of the other Odessa WADs (I don't have them!) but Odessa 14 is certainly highly thought-of. People probably want to play the earlier ones as well for that reason. The fact that they're missing certainly adds to the intrigue.

As Memfis points out, the Odessa WADs have a pretty unique puzzle style that appeals to some people.

EDIT: I've split the thread so that we can continue discussing this without disrupting the original thread.

Old Post 12-22-13 17:15 #
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kmxexii
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Bob Evans said:
Fraggle and Gez,
Thanks for all the info.
I am having trouble grasping this "historic" thingie about the Odessa
levels. I now consider them pretty much junk and almost embarrassing.



Odessa has been the holy grail of "missing" Doom WADs for years. Some people truly do love playing your levels and the idea of playing any of your stuff that's been lost to the winds of time appeals to them; it's caused some heated forum discussions about author distribution rights. I know Chris Klie doesn't think very highly of his ancient Doom levels but I know he's still thrilled to see people playing them and made some pains to make some previously missing stuff available. Basically, I'd love to play what are currently the missing / banned from redistribution Odessa maps, and while some people have tracked down a couple of them, having the glut would fill in one of the most notorious gaps of Doom user-level history.

Old Post 12-22-13 17:43 #
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Zed
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First of all, welcome to Doomworld. As kmxexii said, your levels are something like the Holy Grail of "Doom archaeology". I think the main reason are your Eternal Doom levels, which made a lot of people rage-quit in frustration. And some of us happen to love that kind of maps.

And Silures was from the Odessa series? Wow.

Old Post 12-22-13 18:08 #
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Bob Evans
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Over the next week I will do my best to locate the other levels since I am off work all week. "Doom Archaeology"? Not sure if I should be flattered or feel just old. :)
BTW, I located a review (BLOG) on ODESSA14 and posted a comment.
It seems like a "clue" was missed.
How do I "reference" someone's post. Just copy and paste? It isn't clear or I missed something?

Old Post 12-22-13 18:30 #
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esselfortium
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Bob Evans said:
How do I "reference" someone's post. Just copy and paste? It isn't clear or I missed something?

Click the "Quote" link at the bottom right of their post. If you want to quote multiple posts in one reply, you can open a few in separate tabs/windows and paste them into one reply box.

Welcome to Doomworld btw :)

Old Post 12-22-13 18:36 #
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Bob Evans
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esselfortium said:

Click the "Quote" link at the bottom right of their post. If you want to quote multiple posts in one reply, you can open a few in separate tabs/windows and paste them into one reply box.

Welcome to Doomworld btw :)



Thanks. :)

Old Post 12-22-13 18:47 #
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kmxexii
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Bob Evans said:
BTW, I located a review (BLOG) on ODESSA14 and posted a comment.
It seems like a "clue" was missed.



Thanks, man! Pattern recognition and the like is usually my forte but it seems I failed to pick up on that one.

Old Post 12-22-13 19:33 #
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Springy
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Holy shit cookies, I wondered if you were THE Bob Evans. The level design work you did was amazing. I always assumed when I was younger that it was just called Odessa 14 just because it sounded better than the other numbers, I never realised that there were actually previous installments (though I did wonder later). By the way, welcome to Doomworld.

Old Post 12-22-13 20:00 #
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Zed
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Bob Evans said:
Over the next week I will do my best to locate the other levels


Thanks man, you're going to make a lot of people happy with this.

By the way, I wanted to ask, and I'm sure I'm not the only one: What's the story of the Odessa series? I mean, what was your inspiration? I ask this because you and Jim Flynn are maybe the most mysterious/cryptic TNT members, in part because you both made some of the most "infamous" puzzle maps of the 90's, in part because your names are almost synonyms of Eternal Doom.

Also, do you have any other maps/wads we aren't aware of?

I'm sorry if I bother you with so many questions, but seriously, you have no idea for how long some of us have been waiting for this. I think I can say this is some Serious ShitŪ.

Old Post 12-22-13 20:22 #
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Bob Evans
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Springy said:
Holy shit cookies, I wondered if you were THE Bob Evans. The level design work you did was amazing. I always assumed when I was younger that it was just called Odessa 14 just because it sounded better than the other numbers, I never realised that there were actually previous installments (though I did wonder later). By the way, welcome to Doomworld.


Thank you. Actually there were around 13 levels (?) before Odessa14. Some were uploaded to CompuServe and some were scrapped for various reasons...dead ends, excessive Visplanes, etc.

Old Post 12-22-13 20:33 #
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Bob Evans
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Zed said:


Thanks man, you're going to make a lot of people happy with this.

By the way, I wanted to ask, and I'm sure I'm not the only one: What's the story of the Odessa series? I mean, what was your inspiration? I ask this because you and Jim Flynn are maybe the most mysterious/cryptic TNT members, in part because you both made some of the most "infamous" puzzle maps of the 90's, in part because your names are almost synonyms of Eternal Doom.

Also, do you have any other maps/wads we aren't aware of?

I'm sorry if I bother you with so many questions, but seriously, you have no idea for how long some of us have been waiting for this. I think I can say this is some Serious ShitŪ.



Thanks I think. :) Jim and I were friends back in the day. Still are although I lost track of him years ago. When Jim decided not to Sysop on CompuServe anymore and concentrate on his levels/utilities I was fortunate to replace him. Great guy.
I don't think either of us really cared to continue in the same Gun and Run vein. Enter the puzzle WAD. The audience for that type of wad is relatively small though.
Odessa originated back in my AD&D days (pencil and paper)as a high Cleric (around 27th level) who died after one too many aging spells.
Choosing Odessa was by chance when I ran across his AD&D yellow character sheet and decided to use that name.
The only levels I ever made were the Odessa Series and Eternal.
About 2 months ago I resurrected one of the old unreleased levels never completed due to Visplanes, sprite O/L, Saved Game Size, etc.
and loaded it up with ZDoom. I not only resurrected the level but the monster within I thought long dead or dormant. Now it's GZDoom and UDMF. After a 10 year absence it will take awhile but I may release it in 6 months or so.
Thank you for your interest.

Old Post 12-22-13 20:55 #
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Clonehunter
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Dude, I love your restaurants.

Old Post 12-22-13 20:55 #
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Bob Evans
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kmxexii said:


Thanks, man! Pattern recognition and the like is usually my forte but it seems I failed to pick up on that one.



The play testers back then missed that too and I almost deleted it. :)

Old Post 12-22-13 20:57 #
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kmxexii
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Bob Evans said:


Thanks I think. :) Jim and I were friends back in the day. Still are although I lost track of him years ago. When Jim decided not to Sysop on CompuServe anymore and concentrate on his levels/utilities I was fortunate to replace him. Great guy.
I don't think either of us really cared to continue in the same Gun and Run vein. Enter the puzzle WAD. The audience for that type of wad is relatively small though.
Odessa originated back in my AD&D days (pencil and paper)as a high Cleric (around 27th level) who died after one too many aging spells.
Choosing Odessa was by chance when I ran across his AD&D yellow character sheet and decided to use that name.
The only levels I ever made were the Odessa Series and Eternal.
About 2 months ago I resurrected one of the old unreleased levels never completed due to Visplanes, sprite O/L, Saved Game Size, etc.
and loaded it up with ZDoom. I not only resurrected the level but the monster within I thought long dead or dormant. Now it's GZDoom and UDMF. After a 10 year absence it will take awhile but I may release it in 6 months or so.
Thank you for your interest.



Interesting stuff. I know I'm in the minority but I loved Jim Flynn's levels - all of them - and as exhausting as your Eternal Doom plus Odessa maps were, they are firmly within my favorite style of gameplay. A few authors are still carrying that torch, but it's great to see you back in the fold, if only for so long. Sverre Kvernmo is back and mapping too - a great time to be playing Doom.

Old Post 12-22-13 20:59 #
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40oz
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I've never played any of the Odessa levels but the fact that their "rare" makes me want to have them!

I'm hearing a good bit about puzzles which I really like, puzzles are a dying art in Doom levels, at least ones that really make you think, so I think that has a lot to do with it's appeal.

Good to hear from you!

Old Post 12-22-13 21:08 #
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Grazza
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Bob: I have sent you a private forum message and emailed you the Odessa files that I have which haven't already been mentioned here. I don't have LORDDOOM, the 17-level wad that you mention in some of your text-files.

This guy appeared to have a copy of Odessa_9, which is one of the ones I don't have. But even that post was 12 years ago...

Old Post 12-25-13 01:19 #
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Zed
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Well, Bob has appeared after a dozen years... now it's time to locate ericjmz!

EDIT: Grazza, if I understand correctly, I think Bob never finished LORDDOOM (he even mentions Silures ending up in Eternal Doom).

Old Post 12-25-13 01:35 #
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Bob Evans
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Grazza said:
Bob: I have sent you a private forum message and emailed you the Odessa files that I have which haven't already been mentioned here. I don't have LORDDOOM, the 17-level wad that you mention in some of your text-files.

This guy appeared to have a copy of Odessa_9, which is one of the ones I don't have. But even that post was 12 years ago...


Thanks. I was running into deadends. The HD which stored all my old Odessa Wads was a 100M Windows 98 (water damaged?) HD. :(
LORDDOOM was never completed. Eternal came along and that pretty much ended Odessa.
Just prior to the demise of the ACTION GAMES FORUM I downloaded the entire contents of the Doom1, Doom2, DeathMatch and UTILITIES folders which was not an easy task for 56K modem. Took several days so "somewhere" buried I have about 3 CDs of all that material. It would have taken longer but being a Sysop I had a backdoor pass. :)

Last edited by Bob Evans on 12-25-13 at 02:02

Old Post 12-25-13 01:48 #
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Ragnor
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Wow, another famous Doomer has returned!

IT'S LIKE CHRISTMAS...oh wait.

I remember reading about Odessa levels and how it had the same Forbidden status as Perditions Gate, with members regularly getting assassinated, err, banned, over its mention and discussion. Now I know what that was all about.

I wonder how many more retired mappers will return, its always fun learning about the history of famous old works

Old Post 12-25-13 06:48 #
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Zed
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Ragnor said:
I wonder how many more retired mappers will return, its always fun learning about the history of famous old works


Albert Valls from Cyberdreams and Soundblock (Sverre Kvernmo) from Eternal Doom are back as well.

Old Post 12-25-13 09:50 #
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