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Dark Pulse

Project Proposal - Ultimate Doom: By The Map

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On 2/23/2019 at 7:50 PM, Dark Pulse said:

Whether or not you want to ditch the Caco on ITYTD/HNTR is up to you

Actually, I was wondering about difficulty. Of course, the first level of an episode is usually more about setting up what's to come than presenting a serious challenge, but given that most of us could blaze through Doom E2M1 on UV in our sleep (thanks to experience with gameplay and modern controls) am i right in thinking I can ramp it up a bit?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LordEntr0py said:

Actually, I was wondering about difficulty. Of course, the first level of an episode is usually more about setting up what's to come than presenting a serious challenge, but given that most of us could blaze through Doom E2M1 on UV in our sleep (thanks to experience with gameplay and modern controls) am i right in thinking I can ramp it up a bit?

Well, while a lot of us are diehards in terms of Doom (and indeed, one of the reasons I wanted to use Doom II was because I felt it'd be too easy with just the regular Doom bestiary), I also don't want to make something that only the really skilled players can beat, either. Lots of WADs tend to only cater to the diehard players, but I honestly want something that resembles regular Doom, in that people who aren't super-skilled in FPS games can still play it, enjoy it, and beat it, even if they have to turn down the difficulty a notch.

 

In short, obviously the balance of the 1993 versions of the levels tends towards a little easy for those of us who grew up playing FPS games, so on UV I don't mind it so much, but difficulty level is definitely something to be aware of, and figuring out what to replace your encounters with for lower difficulties is a good idea. The UV versions will generally be the ones most will play, so it's fine to use that as the base, and retool the lower difficulty levels around that accordingly. Tools that are used to analyze maps (WadSpy comes to mind) would be a good loose way of establishing difficulty - personally I'd consider the Ammo-to-HP ratio to be easy for anything under 0.5, moderately tough for anything up to 0.7, challenging for anything up to 0.85, and punishing for anything higher. A ratio over 1.0 means you actually have less ammo in your map compared to monster HP, and of course, that ratio is assuming every shot does maximum damage (which it won't).

 

Of course, even decent ratios can still be nasty - I wrote a bunch of mini-reviews for the GEC project on "expanded Master Levels" and multiple times in my notes I mention how tough some of those maps could be from pistol start, even if the ratios were around 0.6-0.7, so make sure you give pistol start players a decent chance, too.

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This looks like a fun project. I'd like to give E1M8 a try.

 

I haven't done much non-vanilla mapping, but Phobos Anomaly looks like it'd good for learning some UDMF mapping.

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3 minutes ago, dpstatic said:

This looks like a fun project. I'd like to give E1M8 a try.

 

I haven't done much non-vanilla mapping, but Phobos Anomaly looks like it'd good for learning some UDMF mapping.

Don't worry, how "not vanilla" it is is pretty much up to you guys. You may want to communicate with @LordEntr0py though, as the layouts of the Anomalies do seem vaguely similar, and it's possible you two may want to "interconnect" them somehow or something, I'm not sure.

 

Either way, welcome aboard!

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Don't worry, how "not vanilla" it is is pretty much up to you guys. You may want to communicate with @LordEntr0py though, as the layouts of the Anomalies do seem vaguely similar, and it's possible you two may want to "interconnect" them somehow or something, I'm not sure.

 

Either way, welcome aboard!

I think it makes sense to coordinate the end of E1M8 with the start of E2M1, but I reckon we should design the general level and layout of the facilities separately, as we don't want the player to feel like they're playing the same level backwards with different textures.

 

@dpstatic, if you want a look at what I've got so far, let me know. I've designed the start of the level to follow immediately from E1M8.

 

I've bulked out the shape of the structure, and designed a vantage the player gets to see it from, using line and sector portals. The interior of the building hasn't been touched yet.

 

Also, i haven't gone for UDMF. I opted for Hexen format as a middle-ground between vanilla format and UDMF because I enjoy a vanilla feel.

Edited by LordEntr0py

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14 minutes ago, General Rainbow Bacon said:

I've never seen that e4 overworld map before.  Where did it come from?  It wasn't in the original release.

 

As stated in my initial post, it comes from the third-party thyinterpic.wad, which to the best of my knowledge was made by Xaser and Skunk.

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14 hours ago, LordEntr0py said:

I think it makes sense to coordinate the end of E1M8 with the start of E2M1, but I reckon we should design the general level and layout of the facilities separately, as we don't want the player to feel like they're playing the same level backwards with different textures.

 

@dpstatic, if you want a look at what I've got so far, let me know. I've designed the start of the level to follow immediately from E1M8.

Agreed. I'd like to see what you've got so far.

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14 hours ago, LordEntr0py said:

I think it makes sense to coordinate the end of E1M8 with the start of E2M1, but I reckon we should design the general level and layout of the facilities separately, as we don't want the player to feel like they're playing the same level backwards with different textures.

Yeah, I'd definitely agree there as well. Linkage is good, but there definitely shouldn't be a carbon copy.

 

E2 levels are defined by being just a little bit weird, after all, so we definitely need a good transition. It needs to feel familiar, yet alien, all at the same time, because Hell is starting to warp everything.

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Nothing like agreeing to show someone my unfinished work to bring on a certain sense of panic!

Not to worry - I'll send you - @dpstatic - a link tonight.

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Hey all.  I'm interested in this project.  So far I've worked with Hellbent regarding textures.  I'm wondering if anyone needs more textures done.  Or even just general Doom art ideas.

 

 

989.jpg

GSTFONT1.png

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New textures are totally welcome for the project, if anyone feels like that will help!

 

Maybe those guys who lost a couple of textures in the move away from the Doom II IWAD could use some help.

 

I am planning on having this eventually be a PK3 when all is said and done, so keep that in mind when making the textures up.

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Posted (edited)

So @DJVCardMaster I was considering doing Phobos Lab and challenging you but I came up with a cool idea. Since Deimos Lab and Phobos Lab appaear to be the same place, maybe you could send me a rough outline of your work map and I could hellify it a bit and change up its game play. Just an idea, maybe a shabby one. Sorry @THMG but if this goes through I challenge you to a map off!

EDIT: Also @Dark Pulse what do you think of this idea?

Edited by Bushpig2dope

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6 hours ago, Kracov said:

Hey all.  I'm interested in this project.  So far I've worked with Hellbent regarding textures.  I'm wondering if anyone needs more textures done.  Or even just general Doom art ideas.

These are gorgeous!

 

I do have some ideas, if you're interested in working on them...


Working on E2M1, I've been concealing a few demonic face textures designed to turn up around the level as the player progresses - an indication that behind the tech, something has gone very wrong with the Deimos base.

So far I've been using the stock textures - the large Vile face and small marble satyr, specifically. Some fresh textures might be more effective than the old familiar ones, though. Especially if used alongside a mostly-vanilla set.

  • I don't recall the exact dimensions of the surfaces I'm texturing, but I'll find them tonight and let you know. I'll show you the context I'm using them in, too. The red demon face you posted above looks fantastic, but the colour might be a little *too* Hellish to include at Deimos Anomaly.
  • In general, any faces you have or can knock up to work with subtler colours to work alongside techbase textures would be fantastic.
  • Another thought: how about black or grey marble? I love the stock green, but I think it looks too obviously non-techbase. Black/grey marble might blur the lines a little -- did the UAC install it or has hell started to seep in here?
  • One more (and this might be of interest to @dpstatic as well, working on E1M8) -- I'm using the four-part demon face for the "landing" telepad. I really like this texture, but if we're using black/grey marble at Deimos Anomaly, maybe an equivalent demonic-face ritualistic telepad texture would be nice? Doesn't need to be implemented as four flats; I'm using Hexen format, which allows me to use wall textures on floors/ceilings.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Bushpig2dope said:

So @DJVCardMaster I was considering doing Phobos Lab and challenging you but I came up with a cool idea. Since Deimos Lab and Phobos Lab appaear to be the same place, maybe you could send me a rough outline of your work map and I could hellify it a bit and change up its game play. Just an idea, maybe a shabby one. Sorry @THMG but if this goes through I challenge you to a map off!

EDIT: Also @Dark Pulse what do you think of this idea?

I think it's a similar situation to Phobos and Deimos Anomaly - superficially similar structure, but not QUITE carbon copies. There's definitely bound to be some similarity and familiarity (especially in terms of them being military-grade buildings and thus having a somewhat predefined floor plan), but there definitely needs to be some extra trickery afoot for Deimos Lab, and as you said, some hellification for sure since it's a Shores of Hell level.

 

That said, it'd definitely be good to talk with him and see what you come up with together. And yes, it would create our first competition in the project, which will hopefully result in a better overall map for that slot. :)

41 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

These are gorgeous!

 

I do have some ideas, if you're interested in working on them...


Working on E2M1, I've been concealing a few demonic face textures designed to turn up around the level as the player progresses - an indication that behind the tech, something has gone very wrong with the Deimos base.

So far I've been using the stock textures - the large Vile face and small marble satyr, specifically. Some fresh textures might be more effective than the old familiar ones, though. Especially if used alongside a mostly-vanilla set.

  • I don't recall the exact dimensions of the surfaces I'm texturing, but I'll find them tonight and let you know. I'll show you the context I'm using them in, too. The red demon face you posted above looks fantastic, but the colour might be a little *too* Hellish to include at Deimos Anomaly.
  • In general, any faces you have or can knock up to work with subtler colours to work alongside techbase textures would be fantastic.
  • Another thought: how about black or grey marble? I love the stock green, but I think it looks too obviously non-techbase. Black/grey marble might blur the lines a little -- did the UAC install it or has hell started to seep in here?
  • One more (and this might be of interest to @dpstatic as well, working on E1M8) -- I'm using the four-part demon face for the "landing" telepad. I really like this texture, but if we're using black/grey marble at Deimos Anomaly, maybe an equivalent demonic-face ritualistic telepad texture would be nice? Doesn't need to be implemented as four flats; I'm using Hexen format, which allows me to use wall textures on floors/ceilings.

If you're doing UDMF, you can set texture scale per-line on walls and flats as well, so that definitely helps. I also definitely like what you have in mind, and I'd agree that we could use some variety in where the hellish faces turn up.

 

While we're not really making use of the old patches system, nowadays that kind of layering is easy enough to do in Photoshop and whatnot, and then finals can simply be generated off those. (Maybe consider supplying mappers with the PSDs if that's done.) 

Edited by Dark Pulse

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I didn't made a layout for this one at the moment, but it would be probably something like this :2323.png.16f5009ff5ce61abbdbfd0077ac4e48a.png
Basically, the Intermission shows a central circle with 4 paths and 4 more circular areas at the end, I would like if most of those outer circular areas have some access to the outdoors. 
The central room would feature a lift that would only work if you lower it from the Yellow Door room, this may work through the use of UDMF flat portals. The second floor, however, would be something like the central indoor area with little space mostly for the column with the lift switch, and the lift itself, and an outdoor "balcony" area which would may feature somewhat of a big encounter, and a switch that slowly lowers a TP platform.

32432.png.ce4c64ae56fefdbac322b242f9713285.png

You should see the rest of the base from this balcony area.

The teleport sends you to the top of the tower, which could be a bigger hexagonal area with another encounter, and a switch that lowers the exit, at this point.

I don't know what you guys think about this, and actually I don't feel like working on this alone, since my time is shortening more and more. So feel free to work on it based on this layout and ask me for help or further suggestions on layout or aesthetics.


 

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For what it's worth, I'm perfectly fine with collaborations on maps if that helps anyone. Nobody said a map must be a one-mapper show. 

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13 hours ago, DJVCardMaster said:

I didn't made a layout for this one at the moment, but it would be probably something like this :2323.png.16f5009ff5ce61abbdbfd0077ac4e48a.png
Basically, the Intermission shows a central circle with 4 paths and 4 more circular areas at the end, I would like if most of those outer circular areas have some access to the outdoors. 
The central room would feature a lift that would only work if you lower it from the Yellow Door room, this may work through the use of UDMF flat portals. The second floor, however, would be something like the central indoor area with little space mostly for the column with the lift switch, and the lift itself, and an outdoor "balcony" area which would may feature somewhat of a big encounter, and a switch that slowly lowers a TP platform.

32432.png.ce4c64ae56fefdbac322b242f9713285.png

You should see the rest of the base from this balcony area.

The teleport sends you to the top of the tower, which could be a bigger hexagonal area with another encounter, and a switch that lowers the exit, at this point.

I don't know what you guys think about this, and actually I don't feel like working on this alone, since my time is shortening more and more. So feel free to work on it based on this layout and ask me for help or further suggestions on layout or aesthetics.


 

Alright thanks for all the information. I'll have a think and a play around and I'll get back to you sometime hopefully!

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2 minutes ago, Bushpig2dope said:

Alright thanks for all the information. I'll have a think and a play around and I'll get back to you sometime hopefully!


Fine, really looking forward to it, good luck!

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@Kracov - Are you gonna regret asking about this project? I've had another thought...

 

Designing the buildings also requires a fair amount of rock outside the facilities. While I clearly don't need to use a uniform colour, doom.wad is fairly limited on options for plain grey rock of the kind seen on the E2 intermission screen.

 

How about grey and brown (for E1) versions of a new rock type? Possibly a couple of variants with cracks if they're easy to put together?

It's all hard work and I know I've asked a lot! Please think of it all as suggestions...

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I've got exactly one room done for my map, so I'll just let the more experienced people take over for the labs. My plan was more fitting for command center in the same episode anyways. @Dark Pulse , @Bushpig2dope can have Deimos Lab, I'll take over E2M5: Command Center to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.

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2 hours ago, THMG said:

I've got exactly one room done for my map, so I'll just let the more experienced people take over for the labs. My plan was more fitting for command center in the same episode anyways. @Dark Pulse , @Bushpig2dope can have Deimos Lab, I'll take over E2M5: Command Center to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.

I'll move you, but I'll leave it up to him to decide if he wants to stick with challenging @DJVCardMaster on Phobos Lab, or if he'd like to take Deimos Lab all for himself.

 

@Bushpig2dope, please get back to me and let me know what you'd prefer.

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On 3/9/2019 at 6:30 AM, THMG said:

I've got exactly one room done for my map, so I'll just let the more experienced people take over for the labs. My plan was more fitting for command center in the same episode anyways. @Dark Pulse , @Bushpig2dope can have Deimos Lab, I'll take over E2M5: Command Center to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.

I didn't mean for you to back off from the map you chose. One of the main reasons I wanted to challenge someone with a map is because I'm not sure if I'll get time to create a map worthy of this community project, so please dont feel like I'm pushing you off your selected map.

 

On 3/9/2019 at 9:14 AM, Dark Pulse said:

I'll move you, but I'll leave it up to him to decide if he wants to stick with challenging @DJVCardMaster on Phobos Lab, or if he'd like to take Deimos Lab all for himself.

 

@Bushpig2dope, please get back to me and let me know what you'd prefer.

I'd prefer to continue doing Deimos Lab

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21 minutes ago, Bushpig2dope said:

I'd prefer to continue doing Deimos Lab

Okay, then I'll put you down for that officially, since you never really committed to it earlier and I wasn't sure of where you'd want to be with him shifting. I'll get you added there.

 

As for him not wanting to continue, I don't think it's so much you making him back off from that map, but just that he wasn't feeling satisfied with what he was doing with it. That's bound to happen at least a couple times during this project.

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On 2/24/2019 at 1:23 AM, SiFi270 said:

Man, whoever gets Sewers is really going to have their work cut out for them.

DOOM0001.png.2b5ffcb36749cad7dd0ba0fb27e2854f.png

Just an empty expanse in the corner of nowhere.

 

Actually sounds cool to me, a vast empty asteroid landscape that you start on, before descending into a crack or other small opening, into a vast massive sewer system

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Posted (edited)

I want to do Toxin Refinery please!

 

(though i might not since i'm pretty busy, maybe some time)

Edited by Thedoctor989

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4 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 

Actually sounds cool to me, a vast empty asteroid landscape that you start on, before descending into a crack or other small opening, into a vast massive sewer system

Well, again, I don't really see the need for Sewers - at least, not until the original 27 levels are done. Episode 4 is already a stretch goal; something like Sewers would be a stretch goal's stretch goal.

 

That, and it's kind of weird to me to have a sewer system just all the way hell out there. But hey, if someone really wants to do it, I guess. :P

2 hours ago, Thedoctor989 said:

I want to do Toxin Refinery please!

 

(though i might not since i'm pretty busy, maybe some time)

Sure thing! Thanks for volunteering, and bringing this topic back a little from its slumber. :)

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Posted (edited)

We need a better Phobo's sky, the pic now looks like a earth setting, also judging by the way the bases are, the sky should look kinda like this:

 

space-settlement-art-contest-phobos-base-650.jpg

 

with Mars being a not so close, as Phobo's is 48.34 miles or 6.86214845123795e-12 light years away (for realism)

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Thedoctor989 said:

We need a better Phobo's sky, the pic now looks like a earth setting, also judging by the way the bases are, the sky should look kinda like this:

 

space-settlement-art-contest-phobos-base-650.jpg

Sure, but that could be done fairly easily, and it's also something that I'd feel admittedly should come in a "spit and polish" pass for lack of a better phrase.

 

Right now, the priority is definitely maps. This project remains a proposal until maps start coming in.

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