Jesus' Existence

[Fredrik]

Is there a name for the theory that the true meaning of everything cannot be expressed or understood using any logic or form of consciousness that exists inside the universe?

I might convert.

[sargebaldy]

myk said:

It's not a religion. You can have a deist religion, but unless you're talking about a specific cultural manifestation of deism you aren't talking about a religion.

huh? why would it have to involve a particular culture? wouldn't that make christianity not a religion either, since it works differently in different cultures (and in the same culture for that matter, judging by the hundreds of branches of it).

[Cyb]

Doom-Child said:

Heliocentrism was "proven". The flatness of the earth was "proven". Spontaneous generation was "proven". Putting posie petals in your pocket was "proven" to keep away Black Death. I could find more.

I take approximately eight pounds of salt with every scientific "proof".

None of those things were proven, only speculated about (theories), nothing in science is ever proven until it is known for a fact to be true (when it becomes a theorem). Relativity for instance is a theory; it's not proven, and there's really no way to ever prove it fully really. If those things had been proven then nobody would have ever contested them and found them to be false later on. By the way, heliocentrism has HEAVY, HEAVY ties to religion, and in fact whenever anyone contested it (Galileo) they were put to death. Yes, put to death... yeah religion is so great. Don't dare insinutate that the Earth isn't the center of everything. The catholic church only apologized for that ordeal what, less than 10 years ago?

And aside from that I don't see how you can be so quick to disbelieve science because of a few ancient mistakes that were later remedied but are fine following some religion where the whole concept is to believe without seeing or knowing. Doesn't make any sense to me, but it's your life.

Grimm: Calling me close minded? that's rich.

Fredrik said:

Is there a name for the theory that the true meaning of everything cannot be expressed or understood using any logic or form of consciousness that exists inside the universe?

I might convert.

me too

[Grimm]

I ain't close minded. I changed two of my opinions in that same sex marriage spiel.

I truly wish I knew why the Catholic Church gave a damn about the solar system.

[myk]

doomedout said:
Petty? I can't recall in my last post that I was arrogant.

You saw the quotation marks; I never acclaimed you as arrogant or even felt that sargebaldy and Fredrik were accurately talking about arrogance. The pettiness, of course, comes from the concept of self-diminishment to justify oneself and then from there claim that others not bowing down the same way are a step below.

I said it with humility.

Oh, I love humility, when it isn't overused.

Stop being so fucking judgemental and cocky. ITS YOU WHO IS BEING ARROGANT.

That's all you can say? Why not just present your ideas and concepts and beliefs proudly and without fear, as opposed to getting all pissy at another's honest and undiminished claim?

I end here.

We can say you're doomed... out.

Fredrik said:
Is there a name for the theory that the true meaning of everything cannot be expressed or understood using any logic or form of consciousness that exists inside the universe?

Relativism. All understanding is contextual and you aren't ever out of context. Got any sort of evidence of anything "outside the universe," by the way? Aside from some people's claims and hearsay, that is.

sargebaldy said:
huh? why would it have to involve a particular culture? wouldn't that make christianity not a religion either, since it works differently in different cultures (and in the same culture for that matter, judging by the hundreds of branches of it).

All Christian cults are specific occurences and have their pratices, all centered around Christ and the activities of his followers. If you want call christianity a well-defined family of religions, but the fact there may be deist sects or religions does not make the deistic principle a religion.

Talking about Christ; we ended up pretty much forgetting about the fucker along the way. If he ever existed.

[Bucket]

Fredrik said:

Is there a name for the theory that the true meaning of everything cannot be expressed or understood using any logic or form of consciousness that exists inside the universe?

I might convert.

The closest thing I can compare is Chaos Theory. While not a religious institution, many researchers get so wrapped up in it that it conducts their daily lives.

Basically, it's centered around the fact that any pattern emerges from chaos, only by an extreme statistical improbability resulting from such chaos.

Let's say you keep a cat locked inside a box for a month. When you open the box, what will be the likelihood of it being alive? Pure statistics dicatate that it's a 50-50 chance. Regardless of what variables you can apply to any situation, you will only get (in this case)two outcomes: alive or dead. Why?

Because of the "unknown". Scientists can apply as many outcomes and possible happenings in any experiment they execute. But the likelihood of anything happening that they predicted is, in a philospohical sense, infinitely small. With infinite possibility, there is an infinite percent chance of "none of the above" happening.

So, in Chaos Theory, anything will potentially cause anything else. A butterfly will flap its wings on an African plain, causing it to rain in Buffalo, NY. There is no pattern, because there is no origin nor result to ANYTHING.

[læmænt]

Galileo wasn't put to death

[læmænt]

Numbermind said:

Let's say you keep a cat locked inside a box for a month. When you open the box, what will be the likelihood of it being alive? Pure statistics dicatate that it's a 50-50 chance.

No, the cat will obviously be dead after sitting in a box for a month without food or water.

The rest of your post is similarly garbage.

[Fredrik]

Numbermind said:

The closest thing I can compare is Chaos Theory.

No, that's not the same thing. Chaos is hard to compute, but easy to understand.

[toxicfluff]

Or whatever.

[sargebaldy]

myk said:

Talking about Christ; we ended up pretty much forgetting about the fucker along the way. If he ever existed.

doesn't really matter if he did or not. christianity has extended far beyond the bible or the actual life of jesus now. if someone found evidence jesus was actually some fanatic serial killer with a cult, i doubt it would have much affect on christianity. it's gotten to the point where it seems like people delude themselves on purpose because it gives their lives purpose, and wish for an orderly system of heaven and hell and god. sometimes i wonder if even fanatic christians really truly believe, or just brainwash themselves into thinking so because the alternative would be unbearable. just my two cents.

[myk]

Yes, it doesn't matter.

It's not that things cannot be understood, really, but that all understanding is by nature imprisoned in existence and can never exceed it and grasp it all. Or, if you will, things can never be utterly understood.

The desperate in denial do not dare fully grasp that, and pray or pretend there's a safe answer hidden somewhere. And if they can say they have it, or will find it, they can dream they will never die and will finally ascend to perfection (utter understanding.)

Oh, about our friend Jesus; I see this personage as a disagreeable, mortuary, undead being living on the drained souls of the miserable, demanding humanity's abasement for a promise.

[Sharessa]

Since everyone seems to be against me and there are some pretty stupid arguments being made that are so stupid I didnt even think about them, I'm going to opt out of this discussion. You won't see me here again.

But as a final not I'll just say I don't like or get religion at all. Makes no sense. To me life is something you should learn, not something to be told to you. But thats just my personal beliefs, and thus can neither be changed nor imposed on anyone.

[sargebaldy]

I don't really know what you're talking about. I for one am not against anyone in this thread, and I think almost everyone has made at least one good observation.

[Doom-Child]

Cyb said:

None of those things were proven, only speculated about (theories), nothing in science is ever proven until it is known for a fact to be true (when it becomes a theorem). Relativity for instance is a theory; it's not proven, and there's really no way to ever prove it fully really. If those things had been proven then nobody would have ever contested them and found them to be false later on. By the way, heliocentrism has HEAVY, HEAVY ties to religion, and in fact whenever anyone contested it (Galileo) they were put to death. Yes, put to death... yeah religion is so great. Don't dare insinutate that the Earth isn't the center of everything. The catholic church only apologized for that ordeal what, less than 10 years ago?

And aside from that I don't see how you can be so quick to disbelieve science because of a few ancient mistakes that were later remedied but are fine following some religion where the whole concept is to believe without seeing or knowing. Doesn't make any sense to me, but it's your life.

My point was not that those things were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Looking back, we can find several easy ways that they could have disproven those theories long before they were actually found out to be garbage. My point was that using science as an end-all for understanding life is like trying to drive in a car with square wheels, you've only really got half of what you need. Perfect engine, perfect transmission, even 400 miles to the gallon, it doesn't matter because you're not going to go anywhere.

I think the phrase goes something like "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." If I'm not mistaken, that's Einstein.

DC

P.S. The Catholics have almost always been crazy. Think Dune:Messiah where Alia is using the religion of Muad'Dib to further her own ends. A perfect parallel, I think.

[Szymanski]

Doom-Child said:

I think the phrase goes something like "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." If I'm not mistaken, that's Einstein.

Einstein rejected quantum mechanics, not because of it's technical merits but because it didn't fit with his view of the universe. Sound familiar?

[Doom-Child]

Extremely. Even intelligent people are biased by their views.

DC

[Bucket]

læmænt said:

No, the cat will obviously be dead after sitting in a box for a month without food or water.

The rest of your post is similarly garbage.

Well, YOU obviously didn't take a philosophy class. Or you claim to be able to see through boxes.

[Fredrik]

Numbermind said:

Well, YOU obviously didn't take a philosophy class. Or you claim to be able to see through boxes.

This isn't philosophy, it's biology. A cat cannot survive a month in a box without food and water.

[Cyb]

læmænt said:

Galileo wasn't put to death

damnit... who the hell am I thinking of then...

oh and I think the thing numbmind is trying to convay, if I remember correctly from my psych class (and I may not, I took it 2+ years ago) is that if you put a cat in a box for a month (which will clearly kill it) you don't know when it died, and based on human perception, the cat is alive until you open the box and find it dead, even if it died after three days (which is a likely scenario).

[Doom-Child]

It's moot. The cat's dead. Who cares when it died?

DC

[Piece_O_Mind]

Doom-Child said:

It's moot. The cat's dead. Who cares when it died?

DC

People who adore cats.

[Doom-Child]

Listen buster, there are only two kinds of people in this world: those that kick cats, and those who say they don't, but really do.

DC

[fraggle]

I think hes confused with Schroedingers cat.

[Fredrik]

fraggle said:

I think hes confused with Schroedingers cat.

Confused, allright :P

[Scabbed Angel]

But if you put Jesus in a box for 40 days and 40 nights, what is the chance that Satan tempted him with food and water, and perhaps a dead cat to play with?

[Fletcher`]

Doom-Child said:

It's moot. The cat's dead. Who cares when it died?

DC

It's not talking about when the cat died. It's trying to describe human perception.

[Grimm]

Heh.

Danarchy, you have too negative of a view on religion. It isn't always that way; oft it is, but not always. (Everyone against you, eh? Now you know how I feel.)

[mewse]

i can't believe some of the stuff i'm reading here. it really makes me sad for America's future to see the youth of today having such a bad opinion of the church and Jesus.

i'm especially angry with Cyb, who i thought was my friend, for renouncing Jesus.

Cyb, i thought you stood for something.

[Grimm]

'Fraid friendships don't usually have anything to do with religious beliefs.