Scythe2 Demos

[Gusta]

Yeah I know it. Scythe 2 demos were my first prboom demos ever so I was recording with marked -longtics in prboomlauncher and I wasn't aware what it causes. I was noticed about it by Grazza during the 2sectors demopack preogress, so my first prboom 2.2.x compatible demo for Scythe2 should be s210-310 if I remember well.

[Grazza]

Your latest Scythe2 demo, s208p024 is complevel -1 (i.e. "current Prboom" and won't play back with anything else), while your recent coop demos with Method were with -longtics. Maybe the launcher you are using is making it harder to use the settings you wish to.

You might find this helpful. My recommendation is to put the complevel you'll be using most often (e.g. Doom2.exe compat) in your cfg (as default_compatibility_level), and when you need something else (e.g. Boom compat) to put it in the command line.

[Angus Thermopyle]

Two demos today (in spite of the Snooker World Championship):

- Map01 UV -fast in 1:28 (the usual crap)
- Map05 UV -fast in 1:31 (nice!)

[Opulent]

Angus:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/s205f131.zip
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/s201f128.zip

[Schneelocke]

Back, table updated (I hope I didn't miss anything). :)

Great demos, as usual. :)

[Opulent]

Gusta of the North:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/s219p047.zip

[Vile]

Nice, it's still going on... I know of at least one shortcut that hasn't been discovered yet. Perhaps Erik could think of some others, though.

[Gusta]

Vile: and which map? Maybe it was discovered but just not done yet. Don't you mean those AV jumps to exit in map20? They're quite undoable for me. Or some kind of AV jump for key in map27? Heh, give a hint about the map number :)

[Vile]

There's an egyptian rocket jump yet to be used, I believe...

[Gusta]

In map07? It was already done by DomRem... Well I will rather look on another egyptian maps today :) Another shortcut that came to my mind is keygrab in map13 - that has not been used yet.

[Vile]

Yeah, that one was found, but there is another. I suppose that narrows the possible maps it could be down to one. :)

[DomRem]

Thanks for the tip, Vile. :) Took a while to do, but I got a :14 pacifist on MAP09. I'll send it to Opulent in a few minutes.

[Opulent]

DomRem:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/s209p014.zip

[Erik]

nice!

[Gusta]

I understood that Vile meant this jump but similar as in map07 i wasn't able to perform it :) but I found another two useless Rocket Jumps in map09 and also bars glide in map10 - that one saves around 4 secs and it's at the bars before the lowering lift - Grazza also found archie jump over those bars. This trick could be more useful.

[DomRem]

Woohoo! It was so frustratingly tough and took a long time to do, but I finally finished my MAP27 UV pacifist run. The time is 1:53. Will send to Opulent in a little bit. :)

[Opulent]

Mr. DomRem:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/s227p153dr.zip

[Schneelocke]

Opulent said:

Mr. DomRem:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/dwdemo/s227p153dr.zip

Very nice. :)

[Angus Thermopyle]

Yeah, great :)

But it's not pacifist (revenant telefrag at blue key).

[Schneelocke]

Angus Thermopyle said:

Yeah, great :)

But it's not pacifist (revenant telefrag at blue key).

Aren't unintentional telefrags allowed in pacifist demos?

[Angus Thermopyle]

I know what you mean. 'Unintentional' telefrags are allowed if they happen accidentally, but in this case the player knows that there is always a revenant at the blue key, so it's NOT 'unintentional'.

By all means, it's a stupid phrase. A telefrag means instant death. So what could be more violent (read: anti-pacifist) than this?

[Schneelocke]

Angus Thermopyle said:

I know what you mean. 'Unintentional' telefrags are allowed if they happen accidentally, but in this case the player knows that there is always a revenant at the blue key, so it's NOT 'unintentional'.

Mmm. You may have a point there...

By all means, it's a stupid phrase. A telefrag means instant death. So what could be more violent (read: anti-pacifist) than this?

Yeah, but pacifist isn't so much about making sure everyone stays alive as it is about not behaving in a way yourself that causes harm. So if you step into a teleporter believing that there's nothing at the other end, that should be OK - if a telefrag occurs, it's a genuine accident, not something you wanted to happen.

Of course, telefrags in pacifist demos are always problematic simply because you can't judge intent, but from a purely theoretical point of view, I don't see why *unintentional* telefrags wouldn't be acceptable. :)

Otherwise, you could also argue that, for example, running past a group of monsters should invalidate a pacifist demo if it causes infights.

In any case... even if it's not pacifist, it's still a speedrun for MAP27, and that's something else we didn't have yet. ^_^

[Grazza]

My view is that Xit Vono's view expressed here is 100% correct.

Remember also that some demos that have been accepted as pacifist without any argument involve guaranteed telefrags, such as p4m2s. The confusion on this point (which I confess I added to) all seems to stem from AdamH ruling that an ep29 was invalid because it included an avoidable telefrag. If that ruling is regarded as mistaken (and I think it should be), then everything falls into logical place. If it is regarded as correct, then the category becomes virtually unworkable.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Grazza : Xit link updated so it works in the new forum software

[myk]

The main concern is whether you want pacifist to be applicable to nearly any map. One could clearly set a line between competitive pacifist, and absolute pacifist, to judge demos. Though obviously in many cases the distinction is unnecessary, in one case you'd have a category that is similar to the others, and broadly applicable, and in the other, a category that is more of an achievement in itself, being more dependent on persistence and less optimizable.

It's possible see both pacifist and tyson as potentially undoable in certain situations, and to be not overly concerned whether some maps are impossible or not very optimizable under those categories.

[Schneelocke]

myk said:

It's possible see both pacifist and tyson as potentially undoable in certain situations, and to be not overly concerned whether some maps are impossible or not very optimizable under those categories.

I agree with that. I agree with most what Xit said in the post Grazza linked to, too, but this bit troubles me a bit:

"Also, for crushers, if you activate it by switch, then it should rarely be allowed, except for example rq08 where there is no other way to finish the map."

I'm not sure about that really. I don't have a clear enough idea of rq08 right now to say anything about that map, but generally, I'd say that like with telefrags, activating crushers should only be allowed if any kills resulting from it are unintentional. In other words, if you have a map where you have to activate a crusher that *will* crush monsters (because they cannot escape from underneath it, for example), then you can't do that in a pacifist run, and if you can't complete the map without doing so, then a pacifist run in the stricter sense is simply impossible. Tough, but c'est la vie...

I don't think it's a good idea to modify the requirements for a certain demo category because it's seemingly (or actually) impossible to do a demo for that map, otherwise. You don't allow shotgun use in tyson demos just because there's not enough bullets in a certain map to kill those monsters you can't reach with the fist/chainsaw, either, after all.

Maybe there should be a "almost-pacifist" category where you're allowed to resort to tactics that wouldn't be allowed in pacifist demos, but only when there's no other option left. :)

EDIT: typo fixed.

[Opulent]

exactly.
I would think impossible-in-pacifist maps cannot be done for Compet-N, but an almost-pacifist "I did everything I could"-type pacifist run could be submitted as a misc demo.

[myk]

Opulent said:
I would think impossible-in-pacifist maps cannot be done for Compet-N, but an almost-pacifist "I did everything I could"-type pacifist run could be submitted as a misc demo.

COMPET-N doesn't have the most strict "pacifist" rules, though, like it allows "unintentional" telefrags. What I mean is that one can self-propose doing a purist pacifist recording, just like someone can go for a "reality" max or speed run.

Schneelocke said:
I don't think it's a good idea to modify the requirements for a certain demo category because it's seemingly (or actually) impossible to do a demo for that map, otherwise. You don't allow shotgun use in tyson demos just because there's not enough bullets in a certain map to kill those monsters you can't reach with the fist/chainsaw, either, after all.

For cases such as unintentional telefrags, and how to define them, once (and if) accepted, precedents have been used, since they were things that might not have been considered when the category was introduced to COMPET-N (because outside of COMPET-N all discussion is less specific and more opinion-based).

[Grazza]

Schneelocke said:

I don't think it's a good idea to modify the requirements for a certain demo category

Xit's (I believe) and my comments are related to clarifying what the traditional view of pacifist (whether explicit or implicit) has been - and this is a category with more than a decade of history, so changing the meaning retrospectively would seem a bad idea. Regarding crushers, note that hp19 demos have been accepted that involve activating the crusher at the very start. This is in line with Xit's understanding of the rules, as you are then just running as quickly as you can to reach the exit without directly harming monsters. The basic ethos is "if it makes sense as a nomo route, then it is generally OK as a pacifist route".

It's true, on some maps there is scope for an additional category, which you could call purist pacifist. But even on some of the maps where this would make sense as an independent category, you might still be trusting to luck at certain points (imagine: you've got a certain monster killed by prolonged infighting so you can then use a teleporter without killing it, but all your work goes down the toilet when you later get some accidental but theoretically avoidable telefrag...).

[DomRem]

Weirdly enough, through the months of trying this demo, I actually was completely unaware of the revenant in question. This is why I labeled the demo as pacifist, as the entire time I believed the revenant was to the left of the blue skull key guarding it rather than standing right on top of it. Unfortunately, doing a purist pacifist would be extremely unwieldly. The revenant is actually stuck on the place where it stands, so getting it to infight is all but impossible. Luring the afrit to it would seem feasible, but running back and forth getting it to attack the revenant is another story, particularly with the mancubi, cyberdemons and archvile(s) around the area. And even then, there is a chance the afrit will cross one of the teleport lines and warp to the teleporter behind the mountain, which has monster block lines on it, therefore making it impossible for the run to continue as purist pacifist anymore.

In the end, while I would prefer to see my demo stay pacifist (as I centered my run around being just that) the entire point from the beginning was simply a UV Speed. I do believe that, in the event of guaranteed telefrags such as this, exceptions can be made like in E4M2. It is true that there may be technically possible alternatives so as to prevent the telefrag, but if they are terribly difficult and unlikely to be done, perhaps the demo should be allowed to stay pacifist unless said alternative is proved possible in an actual run. If it can be done, then couldn't the first demo's category just be changed to account for it?

[Schneelocke]

Grazza said:

It's true, on some maps there is scope for an additional category, which you could call purist pacifist. But even on some of the maps where this would make sense as an independent category, you might still be trusting to luck at certain points (imagine: you've got a certain monster killed by prolonged infighting so you can then use a teleporter without killing it, but all your work goes down the toilet when you later get some accidental but theoretically avoidable telefrag...).

Just to make it clear again, I personally don't see anything wrong with that in a pacifist demo; if you step into a teleporter believeing that you won't get a telefrag, and if that belief is reasonable (in other words, when there actually is a chance that it's true), then any telefrag that might occur is certainly unintentional - that is, it is not intentional.

I guess (although I don't know for sure, of course) that the rule was more meant to prevent things like "I'm gonna telefrag that cyberdemon so he won't annoy me by shooting rockets at me all the time" - that would clearly be intentional.

Guaranteed telefrags are a gray area. They may not be intentional in the sense of being what that player is actually trying to achieve, but it also feels wrong (to me) to say "you're still pacifist even though you killed a monster by doing something that you *knew* would result in a kill". The frag may still not be what the player was aiming for, but if it was unavoidable and if the player knew about it, then the word "pacifist" doesn't seem to apply anymore.

But given what DomRem said, I personally also think that this demo *can* be counted as pacifist simply because he wasn't aware of the guaranteed telefrag, so it clearly *was* unintentional. :)