TNT 2: Devilution (Texture Pack in OP)

[Joshy]

j4rio said:

To be fair, half of tnt is weird and usually boring uneventful crap, so a quality is pretty weird argument for supposed tnt sequel.

To be fair, we'd rather play quality maps than go through the painful experiences we had playing TNT the first time. I know I wouldn't :P.

You can still maintain the quirkiness without resorting to over-homagey areas and mediocre gameplay, particularly through texturing, architectural design, and adding in bad TNT hallways occasionally, enough not to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

[Joshy]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

You know, I said to whoo myself that some of the maps (mine included,) can be a bit grindy and slaughtermappish and the whole project could stand to be more 'classic' in its gameplay, and a little less grindy and hard. But do you think he listened. And instead of going behind my back, why not just tell me? I could have told you the same thing. Did I get any feedback from you? No. With all respect, your point may have some validity, but the way you have gone about it is pretty low.

Uhhh, I gave you feedback man; I sent all feedback of the TNT2 I played to you in particular. I recall somewhat liking Map29 out of your maps. It was a while ago, sure, but since then, I have not received any other updates. If anything, the way you've gone about this incident is questionable.

[Whoo]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

Bullshit. You had nothing planned.

http://s8.postimg.org/59pq6v29h/wat.png

We were going to discuss the project, which was when I was planning on bringing up your maps. But we decided to do it earlier instead with different people because you vanished after I PMed you the IRC info.

[Tarnsman]

TNT2 is a sequel not a "the way X did" it should emulate the good not the bad.

Kyka is absolutely correct in saying that there are more than his maps wrong with TNT2. Every map that isn't Map 14 and Xaser's new Map 12 needs a massive degree of polish in the gameplay and visual department and there are several maps beyond Kyka's that suffer from terrible design and layouts. Map 22 comes to mind almost immediately. And not everything Kyka made was terrible, even in his worst boring, horribly overlong, stringy hallway maps, such as 17 and 21 there were some very cool ideas and concepts. The start of Map 29 could be removed from the rest of the map and stand on its own easily as a cool little hell map as it is, disconnected from the boxy slog that is the rest.

Is this a failure of management at the upper levels of the project? Yeah it is, Whoo had real life shit going on and was not able to manage the project as closely as would have been optimal. Kyka is also to blame, see the shitstorm surrounding his unauthorized edits to maps in the name of "quality".

What this boils down to is wanting to release a polished product that doesn't have shit like Xaser's Nostalgia Drive sticking out like Thunderpeak instead of rushing something out the door in the name of "getting it done".

P.S. Kyka pretty much took the ball and went home 2 weeks ago, why is this a surprise now?

[Guest]

No. Actually I gave Whoo permission a few days after that shitstorm to use all my stuff. I didn't vanish. I freely returned it. That was just while my account losering was being sorted out. When I gave you people all the work I had done, I expected you guys to act in good faith. Whoo said he would start a new IRC channel and let me know. I suggested that we form a committee to oversee quality control. Whoo said he would do that. I have had no contact since then, just the announcement on this thread that a bunch of maps are being dumped.

And as for my unauthorized changes. I had permission from everyone to make those changes. And I mean everyone. I am sick of saying this. MionicDonut is the only exception to this, but even there I sent him all the changes I made, twice in fact. He could have ignored all the changes I mad and kept his versions if he wished. Unlike a lot of people here, I acted in good faith, I haven't walked over anyone's work, and I actually bothered to communicate with people about what was going on.

Tarnsman, again, I say the same to you as to Joshy and others who have come into this project in the last week. You say that there are good things about my maps. You are just being politically correct, so it looks like you are being fair. Reality is, you have just taken over, with no communication, whatsoever. IF you had bothered to work with me, this could have easily been avoided.

And in regards to my maps and the work that I have done, I stand by them. All that would need changing is to balance some of the monsters to make the levels flow better. Too bad for you. I'll release them somewhere else. This project will be pretty good with the current team at the helm. But it won't be as interesting or unique, which is what I was going for. Quality just requires you to put in time. Uniqueness is not so easy. You probably need to learn that.

[Megamur]

It sure would've been nice if someone had actually pointed out these apparently massive, fundamental flaws with virtually all the maps a long time before they were reaching the final stages of development. Yes, let's wait until we're three years in and then go, "Oh wait, this all sucks. Do basically everything over."

God, what a freaking waste of time.

[Tarnsman]

"Quality is easy. Uniqueness is not. You probably need to learn that."

I'm sorry but this coming from the guy who made Mill 2!? A Map that was a room for room rip off of Mill except WORSE in every way? Shit like that is not unique. Shit like Map 17 and its endless hallways of death IS NOT UNIQUE. You want unique ask Whoo for Xaser's two maps. THAT'S UNIQUE and guess what? They're also high quality! Kassmans map? That's unique! Your linear hallways of repetitive gameplay? Pull your head out of your ass. I'm not lying when I say there are some good things about your maps bro. There really are, and shit like the entire beginning of map 29 can easily stand on its own. But the majority of the content you created for this project is shit. I called map 17 stringy shit the second I saw the overhead of it and you flipped out and got super defensive. Well guess what? I played it. And it's stringy boring shit that the only way to fix it is to delete 90% of it and start over. Fuck even the stuff you "created" for the resource isn't unique. 5 seconds of googling and I can find the source images for the skies.

@Megamur: Had I had access to play the maps 3 years ago I would have.

[ClonedPickle]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

Too bad for you. I'll release them somewhere else.

You keep repeating this as if they're really torn up about it or something

[Guest]

I am not even angry about my own work or the way I have been treated here. That is ok. And the community will still get a quality TNT2 mapset one way or the other. I have that much faith in Whoo, Tarnsman etc. But I am fucking angry about the hours and months and years that people like Megamur, Ragnor and hawkwind have poured into these maps. I have worked with them for a long time. These people deserve better than to have this project hijacked at this last minute, and all their work, all their revisions and updates, just dumped.

It's a fucking joke.

ClonedPickle said:

You keep repeating this as if they're really torn up about it or something

No I am sure they are not torn up about it. You are right. It is disappointing, but it is what it is.

[Megamur]

Tarnsman said:

@Megamur: Had I had access to play the maps 3 years ago I would have.

Beautiful. I feel all better now.

[Tarnsman]

I absolutely agree. You are entirely right that this was a failure of management to not bring these issues up before the final hour. Had I been able to play the set from the beginning you would be hearing about it much sooner and had last week's shitstorm with you (to my knowledge) quitting the project not happened I'd be sending you PMs asking you to unfuck it yourself because they're your maps. But that didn't happen. I only four nights ago finally got to play a compiled beta. When I see someone like Xaser pour such creativity and effort into a map (now maps) to have the rest of the project not match up to that? I'm going to raise a stink.

[Devalaous]

The fact that Megamur and I were generally never even sent a single thing for this project for testing outside of Kyka's large set and a few other mappers who took initiative kinda says it all to me. This underhanded nonsense has been the goal for a long while.

[j4rio]

How come none of these issues were actually issues for years until Tarny dude came out of the woods? If Xaser's maps are so wonderful they don't deserve to be in an unholy wad desecrated by Kyka's horrible hallways, he can also release them on his own, that way you'll make overall quality of mapset including Kyka's maps evened out. I guess. I haven't played it anyway so whatever.

[Megamur]

Ragnor said:

The fact that Megamur and I were generally never even sent a single thing for this project for testing outside of Kyka's large set and a few other mappers who took initiative kinda says it all to me. This underhanded nonsense has been the goal for a long while.

Bingo. When Kyka wasn't working, virtually the entire project stalled because no one else was doing anything with it.

Well, I have nothing left but a lot of frustration and disappointment. I can't continue under these conditions. You all can keep any work I might have done, including my status bar, but my testing days are finished. I'm tired of the horrible management and backstabbing. And frankly, I worked better with Kyka than anyone. I'd send him pages upon pages of critiques and he'd thoroughly address everything. It was a pleasure working with him.

Sorry, guys. Good luck to you.

[Guest]

Tarnsman said:

I absolutely agree. You are entirely right that this was a failure of management to not bring these issues up before the final hour. Had I been able to play the set from the beginning you would be hearing about it much sooner and had last week's shitstorm with you (to my knowledge) quitting the project not happened I'd be sending you PMs asking you to unfuck it yourself because they're your maps. But that didn't happen. I only four nights ago finally got to play a compiled beta. When I see someone like Xaser pour such creativity and effort into a map (now maps) to have the rest of the project not match up to that? I'm going to raise a stink.

But you see, all you ever do is raise a stink. That is apparently your answer to everything.

I stand by my maps. The one thing I don't like about them is that they are a little heavy on the monsters. But whoo actually wanted it that way. Search this thread, he has said that. He intends for this to be a lot harder than the original. I would have made all the maps a little easier and more 'classic.' Other than that, I stand by my layouts and designs.

Look, no one doubts Xaser's work. But there is plenty of other maps in the set that are of equal quality. Certainly different, but equal. You fail to see your own bias. If every map is how you want it to be, then this project will wind up with the same problems as btsx. Every map is top quality and interesting, but they are all the same. You fail to understand that because a map is different, does not mean that it is lower in quality, necessarily. If you run this, TNT2 will be another BTSX. 32 levels of absolutely perfected, tested, beautifully crafted, top quality maps that are blur into one long map. Difference is good. I don't want your bias to wreck this project. And frankly it already is.

[ClonedPickle]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

The one thing I don't like about them is that they are a little heavy on the monsters. But whoo actually wanted it that way. Search this thread, he has said that. He intends for this to be a lot harder than the original.

Okay I hope this bit didn't come out the way you meant it to but just in case: more monsters does not equal more harder.

[Gez]

Tarnsman said:

@Megamur: Had I had access to play the maps 3 years ago I would have.

You know what this means? This means that the closed development model is bullshit. Change to an open development model. Put the project on Github or something. Let everybody look at its content -- maps and resources both, in their entirety. No more demos with just three maps.

[Guest]

ClonedPickle said:

Okay I hope this bit didn't come out the way you meant it to but just in case: more monsters does not equal more harder.

Agreed. But in this case, it is how you would fix the only real problems I see with my own maps in particular. And a number of others also. Much simpler than the far-reaching total redesign or building the maps from scratch as suggested by others.

[Devalaous]

I enjoyed every map sent my way because they were all different. Some were short, some were long, some were linear, some were open ended. Some easy, some brutal. I got a kick out of Alter's 27 because it was deliberately textured goofily. Not that any of this matters anymore.

I'll just wait for the TNT equivalent of Plutonia Revisited, if it ever happens.

[elic]

This is ridiculous. TNT2 has already been delayed long enough. Why delay it even longer just so it can hold up to Tarnsman's high standards? I don't disrespect Tarnsman or anything, but from his posts and playthroughs I can tell he has a narrower view of what makes a good doom map than most players.

The original TNT was a diverse mapset, not really in terms of theme but in terms of style. Each mapper seemed to have a unique view of how to make doom maps, and even the levels I dislike I respect for their creativity. Changing TNT2 to fit the standards of only a few will take away much of its charm and TNT-ness.

I disagree with most of the new mapping guidelines:

1:

Stick to the theme of the episode. E2 is general techbase and should follow how Evilution treated maps that used its space sky: big and open, with some claustrophobic areas surrounding the larger ones. See Evilution's MAP13 and MAP15 as an example. E3 is a mix of hell and techbase and should follow the same guidelines of E2 regarding its scale.

Thematic consistency doesn't really seem to be a problem. From what I've seen, 1-20 have all been techbase-ish, and 21-30 have all been hellish. Isn't that enough? Why should we attempt to have the maps perfectly follow TNT's style for each episode when TNT didn't really have a style to begin with? TNT's Map14, Map16, and Map19 all contradict your guidelines for E2. Also, remember, we're making a squeal to TNT, not a remake.

2:

DON'T MAKE MAPS EXCESSIVELY LONG. This is a general problem that the current overhaul is trying to correct. Maps should generally not exceed 10 minutes in length.

What's wrong with long maps? I think long maps great. AV has a few excessively long maps, and its the stereotypical best wad ever. Having a few very long maps certainly won't prevent this wad from being good.

You know what wad also has some long maps?

TNT

You know, the wad this project is a sequel to? Don't try and tell me that the O'Brian maps weren't long. Sure, they may not be excessively long, but how do you define "excessive" anyways? Are excessively long maps simply longer than the typical long map, or are they maps that go on longer than the limits set by their content and quality? I used the former definition above; if you're using the latter it wouldn't make sense to set time limits on maps - a 5 minute map could be excessively long in that sense. Also, how can you even define "long"? Personally I'd say a map that takes 10-30 minutes is average size and call one that takes 30+ long. You say that anything that takes over 10 minutes to complete is too long for the project, yet I think I spent more time on most of TNT's maps than that the last time I played through it.

Also, if excessively long maps are aren't allowed, how the hell is Map06 staying in the project? It's maybe twice as long as anything in the original TNT. Maybe you'll want me to cut parts of it out - if that happens I might be forced to pull it from the project. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see TNT 2 suffer even more (honestly I think Kyka's response was uncalled for), but I spent a lot of time planning out the layout, and I don't want much of my effort to be put to waste. Also, Kyka did a lot of work on its visuals (though certainly not the "majority" of the map as he incorrectly states a few posts above) so I'll also have to spend a ton of time reworking the visuals if it stays here.

3:

MAKE NON-LINEAR MAPS. Evilution was not a linear mapset. Your maps shouldn't be either. Linear, corridor maps are not something we're looking for.

Here's a list of linear TNT maps: 01, 02, 03, 05, 06, 08, 10, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32. That's over half of them.

Nonlinear maps are cool and all, but Evilution was a generally linear mapset.


4:

DON'T MAKE TASTELESS HOMAGES. If you want to make a certain area a homage to a map in Evilution, feel free to. But don't make your maps just rip-offs of original maps; make original content.

Nothing to say here - I actually agree with this one.

----------------------

So yeah, I think this decision is a massive mistake. I have more things to say about this, but I've already spent enough time writing this excessively long(hah!) post.

Off to get some popcorn.

[Devalaous]

Processingcontrol said:

Also, if excessively long maps are aren't allowed, how the hell is Map06 staying in the project?

Because its not made by Kyka. Outside of the excessively high difficulty for a map 6, I really loved that map.

Great points there too.

[Tarnsman]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

Difference is good.

Yes it is and frankly, TNT2 lacks it. I'm going to be honest. I streamed the beta and that's why guys like ClonedPickle are actually commenting on the quality. And the "it all blends into one long map" is a big problem with TNT2.

For the sake of openness. Here are some of the playtesting notes I came up with. The first batch is by Alfonzo transcribing my thoughts, the second batch is some additional clarifications by me.

http://pastebin.com/RWtyrbFL

[elic]

Tarnsman said:

Every map that isn't Map 14 and Xaser's new Map 12 needs a massive degree of polish in the gameplay and visual department

Seriously?

SERIOUSLY?

Is this a joke?

Sorry Tarnsman, but this isn't BTSX: TNT EDITION.

Not every map should fit your insanely high standards.

[Marcaek]

I'd just like to say that I was probably the first person to say "this particular kyka room is cool, too bad the other 90% of the map exists".

You know, before I'm accused by some people of being unable to form my own opinions or anything.

[Superluigieth1]

lemme take map21 pls.

[Whoo]

Processingcontrol said:

This is ridiculous. TNT2 has already been delayed long enough. Why delay it even longer just so it can hold up to Tarnsman's high standards?

I agree on the length of development, but at the same time I don't think the project is ready for release as it stands. Most maps need a slight visual overhaul with some layout changes; that's it. That's not something that will take years to get done.

Processingcontrol said:

Seriously?

SERIOUSLY?

Is this a joke?

Sorry Tarnsman, but this isn't BTSX: TNT EDITION.

Not every map should fit your insanely high standards.

He's not saying that they need to be overhauled to the point where they have to be as good looking as those maps; he's just saying that some maps could be polished more so those maps don't stand out as much.

EDIT:

Superluigieth1 said:

lemme take map21 pls.

Make a map and submit it to me via PM for consideration. We're reorganizing the texture resource so you'll have to wait for that.

[elic]

Also I've already mentioned that Map06 is called "Aquarium".

[Tarnsman]

Also when Whoo says lineal he means "the layout is literally go in a straight line for 90% of the map", this is the case with a lot of TNT2.

01, 02, 03, 05, 06, 08, 10, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32. That's over half of them.

Let's address these.
Map 01? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 02? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 03? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 05? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 06? Interconnected layout, not so much optional areas. Map 08? Why the fuck would you emulate metal!? Map 10? Interconnected layout, no so much optional areas. Map 13? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 14? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 19? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 20? Drake O'Brien but still tons of optional areas. Map 21? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 26? Terrible, bad example. Map 27? Worst map in TNT but still has optional areas. Map 29? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 30. Linear, you got me there. Map 31? Interconnected layout and optional areas. Map 32? Interconnected layout and optional areas.

Shit like Map 17 or Map 21 is not this. These are "progress in one direction until you arrive at the next box". One single basically "hallway" that lasts 13,000 map units is not a good layout. This has nothing to do with high standards, when I say this project needs polish it doesn't need BTSX polish it needs to look like it came out in 2013 not 1998

P.S. My narrower view on what makes a good doom map is "it's fun to play" otherwise I wouldn't like and defend the wide variety and ranging quality of maps that I do like and will defend in TNT2.

[Megamur]

Tarnsman said:

This has nothing to do with high standards, when I say this project needs polish it doesn't need BTSX polish it needs to look like it came out in 2013 not 1998

Then maybe a sequel to a 1995 WAD running under strict vanilla limits wasn't the best choice for that target.

I also agree that the "10 minutes or less" guideline for map design is nonsense. I've always found 20-30 minutes to be a perfectly good length. This holds even more true if these maps are going to be more nonlinear now--the greater emphasis on exploration would add even more time.

[Guest]

Whoo said:

Stuff.

Three. Fucking. Years. And. You. Never. Said. Anything.

Tarnsman said:

Yes it is and frankly, TNT2 lacks it. I'm going to be honest. I streamed the beta and that's why guys like ClonedPickle are actually commenting on the quality. And the "it all blends into one long map" is a big problem with TNT2.

For the sake of openness. Here are some of the playtesting notes I came up with. The first batch is by Alfonzo transcribing my thoughts, the second batch is some additional clarifications by me.

http://pastebin.com/RWtyrbFL

Tarnsman said:

For the sake of openness. Here are some of the playtesting notes I came up with. The first batch is by Alfonzo transcribing my thoughts, the second batch is some additional clarifications by me.

http://pastebin.com/RWtyrbFL

Tarnsman said:

The first batch is by Alfonzo transcribing my thoughts, the second batch is some additional clarifications by me.

So to give more weight to your opinions of the maps, you are using... your own opinions.

lol.