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dobu gabu maru

The DWmegawad Club plays: Whitemare 2

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What is the DWmegawad Club?
This is a place where we settle down, have a cup of tea (or drink of your choice) and take a month to play through a megawad on our own, together! Any keen observations, criticisms, or frustrated ranting about it goes here in the discussion. As long as you want to say something about what you've played, feel free to speak your mind.

Can I join?
Sure. The only rule is that you have to play at least some of the levels in our monthly megawad to contribute, but you're generally encouraged to finish the whole thing, even if you've played it before.

What levels am I allowed to post about?
Whatever day of the month it is, is the upper limit for the map you can post on. So if it's the 6th, you may discuss up to MAP06.

Do I have to post an entry every day?
Nope, not at all. This is only for our more enthusiastic members. As long as you play through it with us you’re part of the club.


The megawad we are playing through currently is Whitemare 2


Winter has come again! The Russians have graced us with yet another wad, organized in 2013 out of four separate speed running contests. Various maps have been refined since their conception, but all of them keep the themes of Winter and gloom in mind. So as Spring rolls around, let's take one last look at this brutal snow-filled nightmare!

Author & maplist for Whitemare 2:


Map01 - “Entry Gate" by Slavius [B0S]
Map02 - “Hall King" by Arsenikum
Map03 - “Snowbox Ascension" by Arsenikum
Map04 - “Caverns of the Damned" by Cybermind
Map05 - “Lost Keep by Dant3
Map06 - "Vida Rota" by [BoMF]Devived
Map07 - “Ice&Fire" by Kashtanka
Map08 - “Frozen Acid" by BigMemka
Map09 - “UAC Outpost" by Memfis
Map10 - “Operation 'Blizzard'" by Shadowman
Map11 - “Short Night" by Chaingunner
Map12 - “Rotten Orange" by Chaingunner
Map13 - “Inside Your Mind" by Iron Hand
Map14 - “The Pillar and the Pit" by Memfis
Map15 - “Floating World" by Dragon Hunter

Map31 - “Pillars of Creation" by Dragon Hunter
Map32 - “Green Madness" by Dragon Hunter

Map16 - “Mystery Island" by Shadowman
Map17 - “Abyss of Death" by BigMemka
Map18 - “City on the Edge" by Chaingun Predator
Map19 - “April" by Marat
Map20 - “Gloominarch's Realm" by Arsenikum & BigMemka
Map21 - “Fires of Darkness" by Kashtanka
Map22 - “Alarming Antiquity" by BigMemka
Map23 - “Trynton" by Snark
Map24 - “Brutanasia Castle" by Arsenikum
Map25 - “Inside the Pyramid" by Shadowman
Map26 - “Cave Village" by Memfis
Map27 - “Hidden Threat" by BeeWen
Map28 - “March of the Viles" by Shadowman
Map29 - “Trip One Way" by BigMemka
Map30 - “Operation 'Antimaydan'" by Shadowman

Community Chest 4
MAYhem 2012
Memento Mori
2002: A Doom Odyssey
Coffee Break & Fava Beans & Double Impact
Stardate 20X6 & Monochrome Mapping Project
Realm of Chaos
Back to Saturn X E1 & Favillesco E1
Kama Sutra
Unholy Realms & Zone 300
Vile Flesh
Ultimate Doom
Whitemare & Sacrament
Epic 2
Whitemare 2

Edited by dobu gabu maru

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The problem I've had with trying to do this is that about 3 maps in, it gets too difficult for me and I can't get any further. So maybe it's time I just started playing on a skill I know I can just about get through a megawad on.
ITYTD it is!
So, ITYTD, pistol starts from me

MAP01: Entry Gate - Slavius [B0S]
| Kills: 16/16 | Items: 0/0 | Secrets: 0/0 | Time: 0:48 | Attempts: 0 |
ITYTD aside, this level is incredibly easy, but then again it's MAP01, it doesn't need to be Arch-viles and Revenants right from the word go. It sets up the cold theme that is characteristic of the WAD. Library room feels rather cramped, but other than that, the level is just too small to have any other problems.


MAP02: Hall King - Arsenikum
| Kills: 17/17 | Items: 0/0 | Secrets: 0/0 | Time: 1:06 | Attempts: 0 |
Another extremely short map, though this time, the chaingunner and Mancubus are introduced. With the latter, I was quite unfortunate in my dodging, and with the map having very very little health, I exited with just 17.
I know it's a speedmap, but I really think the map could have benefited from the other 3 doors in the central area actually having something behind them, rather than just being there for decorative purposes.



Still, as I remember from the TNS session, Whitemare 2 has enough huge levels to compensate from the very easy start. I'm glad this WAD was picked.

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World Tour continues in Russia. Destination: Demonic Siberia. Max carnage when possible

Oh also, lol at MAP19's name.

MAP01 Entry Gate

It's better than Slavius's offering from the first Whitemare, as it actually is MAP01. But it's still not too much to look at with few monsters. Chaingunners are on some gate and may pose a problem.

The real problem with this map is that it lacks player starts. I tried adding a bot but there's no Player 2 start there.

MAP02 Hall King

Arsenikum contributes something much smaller than his IOS outing, even smaller than the previous map I would say. Same deal as before, but a nice big meat mancubus in the middle of things. Plus a long elevator which is boring. I don't think I took damage with this one.

Again, where's the other player starts?

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I managed to get overscheduled on the last two Russian months, so can I complete this one?

Playing, as usual, continuous, UV, keyboard only, with frequent save/reload, using the almighty Risen3D.

Going in, nice titlepic and intro music.

Map01 - Entry Gate by Slavius - Kills - 100%, Secrets - 0% - Death Count - Zero

Very small, very easy opener. Interesting concept for cover at the start, by dropping into a pit to avoid fire. Chaingunners were ineffectually placed on the battlements and too easily disposed of. There was really no combat to speak of in this map.

I liked the BGM, and the environment looked pretty cool with nice tire tracks through the snow. The wood part was kinda dull because no effort was made with the lighting. Sky texture was a nice dark blue. Would've liked more teeth. Even if it's an opener, does it have to be this easy?

Map02 - Hall King by Arsenikum - Kills - 100%, Secrets - 0%, Death Count - Zero

A nice bunch of hitscanners to massacre at the start. Never took a hit in that fight. Extremely small map again, and just about as easy as Entry Gate. The hellspawn barely laid a glove on me, and given my meager skill, that's a sad statement to make. ;D I liked how the partially-rising doors hinted at a much larger complex. Visually, this map ain't bad.

I'm guessing Mr. Mancubus was our Hall King. The king was quickly and easily dethroned by an enraged populace of me.

I wasn't bothered by the lift, but I was bothered by the lack of action. The BGM also had some high-pitched skreeing that got on my nerves.

So basically, this is an OK map that needs a major combat injection.

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Hmm, back to the snow, eh? Well, it's been raining here more than it did all winter so I guess that's somewhat appropriate.

Settings: UV, continous, save/reload as I feel fit, software ZDoom with mouselook

MAP01: Entry Gate by Slavius
100% kills, no secrets

Very small opener, with some use of trees to block off other pathways. A quick jaunt into a wooden library, then into the exit teleporter. Really quick and easy, which isn't bad for a MAP01. The first thing that struck me is the lighting isn't all that great - we have super-bright interiors and gloomy exteriors. Okay, I can understand that by itself, but when doing so, I prefer to have the actual light sources making light, not just making everything fullbright indoors. I dunno. I guess these are speedmaps. There's also a little bit of unreadability with the metal switch replacement (looks like a switch cover at first), and the staircase in the wooden area blending in. No secrets is also always a disappointment.

MAP02: Hall King by Arsenkium
100% kills, no secrets

Very similar to the last map in that it's almost comically short, and has no secrets. Unlike last map, it's bright outdoors and dark(er) indoors. Also very easy, and seems even smaller (outdoor area, indoor room, a hallway, room with yellow key). C'mon Russians, gimme some meat here!

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Finally I get to participate in one of these from the beginning! (I've been playing Epic 2 sporadically, but not quickly enough--and from mid-way through, as I'd left off at that point earlier this year--to bother contributing.) And we're supposed to be getting more snow in Minnesota tonight, so thematically this is perfect!

I actually downloaded Whitemare 2 last night just in case it was the April pick, and played through the first level quickly (is there any other way?) to make sure (as I do) that my shortcut loaded everything up properly. And I've never played the first Whitemare, beyond tooling around the MAP01 to give it a quick look. So.

Anyway, I always play in GZDoom on HMP, continuous, keyboard-only, and I try to use freelook only in situations that won't affect gameplay (i.e., I don't use it to aim.)

MAP01 - Entry Gate
24/24 kills | 0/0 secrets | 0/0 items | 3:44

My first play through this last night, I didn't find the switch to exit the starting room right away, so I took out the hitscanners through the windows and then ran around the room a couple times looking for a way out. Suffice it to say it went a little more smoothly the second time around, though this time I got to the end before noticing I had missed a kill; after backtracking to the start and working my way forward again, I realized I missed one of the chaingunners on the battlements: he never noticed me the entire time. Anyway, short and sweet; a perfectly serviceable MAP01.

MAP02 - Hall King
26/26 kills | 0/0 secrets | 0/0 items | 2:50

I enjoyed the look and feel of this level, so it's disappointing that it's so short; it's hardly even a level. And no secrets? I like secrets. No secrets makes me sad. I did get a chuckle out of the only-open-halfway doors, though.

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Salt-Man Z said:

Anyway, I always play in GZDoom on HMP, continuous, keyboard-only, and

Cool -- another keyboarder! I can't wait until we compare notes on Map03. ;D

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This is mapset I probably wouldn't play if it wasn't for the megawad club. I didn't like the first maps very much; maybe that's because the last two wads I played were BTSX and Forsaken Overlook :P

I played 6 maps already, but here are my notes for the first three maps: (GZDoom - HMP - continuous)


Lighting is almost flat. There is a stair with the same texture of
the wall behind it, making it almost invisible. The switch textures and music are not helping, either.


A little better then the first, then it suddenly ends. I like small maps, but this was a bit too abrupt. The snow theme is nice, though. Zdoom blood decals look good against the white surfaces.


Way better then the others. I liked how almost all monsters were in the first room (well, the map basically IS the first room). The feeling of climbing through some frozen ruins worked for me. Another short map, but this time better executed. Hope this wad follows this "ascension".

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Map03 – Snowbox Ascension by Arsenikum – Kills, 100% - Secrets, 100%. Death Count – Zero

Y’all know what’s coming, don’t you? Keyboarder Steve meets platformer map, bad vibes ensue.

I know that many players may like this mash-up of Doom and Sonic Hedgehog way more than I did. Platformer maps are one of my Achilles Heels. Keyboarder with shitty directional control encounters 90-degree turn on narrow ruined wall while under fire from numerous Revvies and Imps. Falls 3 million times. Yay.

The fights were boring, too. The best was the hitscanner holocaust at the start, somewhat reminiscent of how Slava Pestov started Map05 in Realm of Chaos. Great ideas never get old! I took a fair amount of damage in this battle and emerged bloody but satisfied. Alas, after this, a few Imps and Pinkies on the ground were soon dispatched and served no real purpose other than to drain my ammo. Everything else was above me, and even with my crippled dodging skills, their fireballs, slime and rockets were easily evaded. But there was enough HP up there, and often so high as to confound auto-aim, to drain my ammo, so it was a snoozeworthy exercise of shotgun plinking to kill all the Revvies before I could ascend the ruins. I was very much tempted to use freelook, and probably should have. I was practically out of shells by the time I killed all the boneheads.

Once this disagreeable task was accomplished, I was finally able to ascend the ruins. At first, I thought the narrow columns leading to the rocket launcher signaled an invisible bridge between them. So much for my Doom instincts! ;D When I finally snagged the RL, I climbed up to the dull fights with Imps and a Hell Knight and finally got out of there.

While this map was absolutely, positively no fun at all for me except for the opening hitscanner fight, it looked cool and was the most ambitious and attractive map thus far. Looking at the big exit area, I found myself wanting to go in there and continue the level, because it looked impressive. BGM was good, too.

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Okay, so it's Whitemare II. This will be the first WAD in a while the Club has featured that I've never played before, so it'll be as new to me as to most of you. I liked a lot of the maps in the original Whitemare (though there were also a handful of duds), and I'm anticipating more of the same here. Veinen's got the FDAs covered, so I'll just be doing a normal leisure playthrough, which for me means Eternity, UV, pistol-starts, no saves unless the maps start getting really long (and I hope at least a few of them do!), no infinitely-tall things, 'chivalrous' mouselook (with you on that one, Salt-Man), etc. etc. etc. Without further ado...

Map 01 -- Entry Gate - 100% Kills / No secrets
Ah, Slavius, he of a certain astronomically energy-inefficient cottage that some of us may recall. 'Entry Gate' is marginally improved over his map from the original Whitemare, but is visibly by the same author--the same oddly squashed vertical scale, smallscale representationalist sector-detailing, flat lighting, etc. The depth of scene is a bit improved here, at least, with a slushy road leading away behind a fence, etc. Playing it sort of reminded me of the first map of ZPack somehow (which is not entirely a good thing), probably has something to do with the very first fight being shooting at some weaklings loafing around outside through the windows of the garage where you start (or at least it seemed like a garage to me). The chaingunners on the wall a bit further on don't work very well--the particular dimensions of the rampart means they can only hit the player when s/he is very far away from them, and autoaim tends to throw rounds into the rampart when the player tries to hit them, as well. Something about the exit pad looks horribly garish to me, as well. Not a great start, definitely a strict speedmap.

Map 02 -- Hall King - 100% Kills / No secrets
Another weak map, probably weaker than the first. Presumably the titular monarch is that mancubus? At first I thought he was perched up on a throne in the middle of the storage sh...uh, I mean, "secret base" (the new computer readout/display textures look quite bad here), but closer examination reveals that he apparently fell through the roof, unsurprising given his great girth in combination with the fact that the roof suspiciously appears to be paper-thin (oh those zany UAC bean-counters). Gameplay is pretty damned dire; after the opening, which requires some basic target prioritization skills, it's just a very short series of basic doorway-fights. I guess there's some vague interest in that the ammo balance actually seemed very tight--I ran entirely out of shells at one point--but the fights were so small this hardly mattered. If I hadn't played this a few minutes ago I probably would've already forgotten it.

Map 03 -- Snowbox Ascension - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
This is more interesting, although I can't say I actually enjoyed it much. The idea is simply to parkour your way up some bits of snowdrift, ruined wall, rock formations, and other convenient incrementally-graded bits of terrain to reach a strange blue obelisk atop the tallest rock, so that you can melt a barricade of ice pillars and leave. The platforming itself is easy-peasy--the little trip over to the rocket launcher looks like it might require some kung-fu montage polerunning, but just running straight ahead will clear the gap if you're aimed right--and sort of peters out halfway up the climb, where you suddenly encounter a convenient (if awkwardly engineered) elevator-contraption. No, the rub here is the scads of bothersome monsters perched all along your route like so many overgrown infernal pigeons. Because you have to climb a third of the way up and take a detour to get the rocket launcher, you're left with little recourse but to either pick a lot of them off from the ground or gently nudge them out of your way with buckshot as you go (guess which one I picked), which is all well and good, except for the revenants on the tallest rock. Unholy shit, those bony bastards had me channeling my inner SuitePee--the number of times I had to abandon my climb in order to not be hit by the approximately 4.7 fucking million tracking missiles they were launching per second got old fast, let me tell you...for what was such a tiny map where I suffered no deaths, I spent an embarrasing amount of time playing this, suffice to say. The exit scene is pretty cool, but apparently there are missing textures (probably HOM in PrBooM-plus) on that otherwise intriguing structure in the distance...?

The early going here hasn't made a very good impression on me, to be honest, but there's no telling how much good stuff I'd have missed out on over the course of my Dooming career if I'd have let a few early duds deter me...

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MAP03 Snowbox Ascension

Interesting, but still quite short. It's a sand, I mean, snowbox-type arena with all the monsters in it. Imps are everywhere on the ledges, and the revenants will prove nightmarish. The rocket launcher requires some platforming, and I guess that's all about what's notable.

There are some problems though. Again, no other player starts. The txt said that Cooperative has "Player Starts only" but I'm currently unsure if any level will have them now, seeing as how three currently don't have starts. The other problem: missing textures. You can see them when looking towards the exit, in ZDoom the blue/white checker pattern is on some layers in the background.

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Alright, Whitemare 2 here we go. Glboom+, On UV and FDA-style all the way through and like I mentioned in the Epic 2 thread, I have some demos to dump too in case anyone is interested in that sort of thing. Some of them are spectacularly half-assed efforts but no matter, I'll post 'em anyway. Maps 01-03: https://www.mediafire.com/?669166h476k15zh

Map01: Entry Gate by Slavius

Yes, this looks, feels and plays like a speedmap like it is. Very short and map01-esque too so there's not much of it to speak of... Starts all wintery tech-base, then suddenly a mini-sized library and that's about it. Combat is what one would expect from the first map of a mapset: very weak opposition and pretty much all of them in front of the player. The three Chainers are completely useless the way they are placed, they can hardly damage you and when you finally get to them there will be no further use for the Chaingun in the map.

Map02: Hall King by Arsenikum

More of the same really. Ammo is pretty tight though so you better take advantage of the titular hall kings fireballing abilities. Plus, it's a possibility to produce those delicious zombieman gibs so there's really no reason not to do it right? After that you get an obnoxiously long lift ride and a boring doorway scrum with a handful of Imps. Grab the key and you're outta here. Pretty weak even for map02.

Map03: Snowbox Ascension by Arsenikum

Well now, this was slightly more interesting. Still very much a speedmap but it introduces height variation big time and is very different from the first two. The goal of the map is just to get to the top to open the exit and getting there involvesd some light platforming. At least for a keyboard and mouse -player the platforming is light, that is, since even with my piss-poor platforming skills I didn't have much problems. Didn't even bother to multitask much though and killed the Imps from below since combining climbing and shooting spells disaster for me. The Revs do seem kind of annoying now that I look back, but I honestly didn't think much of them while playing. Could be that I just got lucky, and surely emptying ledges beforehand helped as well. The start is still probably the most interesting part since you have to fight for a weapon and there's quite a lot going on actually. I even died once, not sure how I managed to do that but nevertheless.

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SteveD said:

Cool -- another keyboarder! I can't wait until we compare notes on Map03. ;D

I feel like I've gotten fairly adept at platforming via keyboard; is it easier with a mouse? I wouldn't even know. :) In all honesty, I never did figure out how to use a mouse (or gamepad, for that matter) in an FPS--probably why I never really advanced much past the Doom engine.

MAP03 - Snowbox Ascension
55/55 kills | 1/1 secret | 0/0 items | 7:16

Fun little map that's essentially a single room. I started out by taking out the ground troops in front of me, then booked it to the right--behind the tower--where I used shotgun and chaingun to snipe the imps off the ledge. Died a couple of times by attempting to make the climb before the imps were all cleared away, and got revenanted for my troubles. In my successful attempt, I picked off all the imps from the ground before making the ascent, then took out the revenants from under cover of the tower doorway. The hell knight was an anticlimax, as he was penned into his little room and wasn't able to get his fireballs through the doorway. I didn't even notice the secret until I was done, at which point I dropped down and zipped right over to it without any problems. Didn't even see the rocket launcher until I picked it up! ("Gee, that would have been handy three minutes ago," thought I.) I liked the epic-ness of the music, too, especially when the massive exit tunnel was revealed; thought that was really cool. Overall, this would have made a nice first room in a much larger map, but sometimes I like the bite-sized levels, too (Zone 300!) so I won't complain.

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MAP03: Snowbox Ascension - Arsenikum
| Kills: 35/37 | Items: 0/0 | Secrets: 0/1 | Time: 03:03 | Deaths: 0 |
I definitely prefer this to the last two, and that also goes for the music. The revenant makes its debut in what I imagine to be a rather effective sniper position on the harder skill levels. Secrets also make their first appearance, and..I didn't find it. I guess that's where the last two enemies were hiding too. I probably could've come in with a time under 3 minutes had I not fallen off (failing to remember that it was a shoot-switch that triggered the platform).
Like the previous two maps though, this is just too small a map for my liking. I'd expect more from a MAP03.

Personally, I'm looking forward to writing up MAP20 most of all.

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Ok, finally i have time to join in with this one. Not played this one before, or the original, so should be interesting. As usual I'll be pistol starting on UV.

Map01 - “Entry Gate" by Slavius [B0S]

A simple and short starting map. I'm liking the visual theme, though a wall of cardboard trees seems a bit weird. Nothing terrible here, not keen on the indoor bit with full bright lighting and awkward torches, and buttons next to doors to open them is something that niggles me, but not a bad start.

Map02 - “Hall King" by Arsenikum

Another short and simple map. This one gave me some pistol starting problems to do with ammo and mancubus and small spaces. The very long lift to a little room with a couple of monsters in was kind of odd. Hey ho, on to the next one.

Map03 - “Snowbox Ascension" by Arsenikum

This map got pretty damn tiresome for me, mainly because of the platforming while under fire, but having no armour meant any hits were totally unforgiving, especially from one of the revs that you can't even see. So most of my time was spent falling off the same platform over and over again trying to get the rocket launcher. It turned out you could snipe the revs from the ground at a certain point, wish i'd found that out sooner. But yeah, platforming is one of my pet hates so this was never going to be fun I guess. Plus the imps invite a somewhat dull methodical pick-them-all-off-before-doing-anything strategy. The map looks interesting though, feels like there is some kind of story going on.

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Trying to see if I can stick around for this one. Zdoom, keyboard, UV, pistol start, saves aplenty.

MAP01: An innocent enough start. Sometimes it's hard for me to judge speedmaps given that each mapper works at a different rate with varying efficiency, but Slavius carries his skills well enough here. Only thing I thought was in poor taste was that fullbright library—varying the lighting there could've blended well with the atmosphere, instead of just looking out of place. Also lol that the trance Ice Cap intermission music.

MAP02: Uhhh that was quick. Nothing egregious with this map here—I actually quite like the amount of detail put into it—but being ~4 rooms strung together in a linear path won't make it stand out in the end.

MAP03: I liked this one better than the first two. The sandbox nature of it and the prickly perched enemies meshed well with the level, although the revenants felt quite mean until I grabbed the (almost mandatory) RL. Good layout, fun area to scamper around while still being thankfully lenient.

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MAP03: Snowbox Ascension
100% kills, 1/1 secret

Still quick, but much better than the first two as there's actually somewhat of a challenge. As others have said, the RL secret is pretty much mandatory, but it's also not really secret. (I'm kinda surprised so many people missed it!) After clearing out the bottom floor and some of the imps, I scampered up to get the RL and clear out the revenants and other heavies, then began platforming up the rest. The problem inherent in the design is that the map becomes easier as the monsters get eliminated, so it's definitely a bit anti-climatic. The music sounded interesting and high quality but it was also somewhat soft and I couldn't really hear it over the constant imp fireballs.

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I'll get started on this one, although I do plan to finish Epic 2 also.

Map 1:

A very short, simple map with some oddly clashing themes. I definitely agree that the near-invisible staircase in the library is a real annoyance.

Map 2:

I think and blinked and missed this one.

Map 3:

Yuck. Platforming, very dull enemy placement, and very awkward navigation with a huge HOM at the end. I never noticed a rocket launcher...

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Salt-Man Z said:

I feel like I've gotten fairly adept at platforming via keyboard; is it easier with a mouse? I wouldn't even know. :) In all honesty, I never did figure out how to use a mouse (or gamepad, for that matter) in an FPS--probably why I never really advanced much past the Doom engine.

Good on ya, Salt-Man! Though I guess this leaves me as the charter -- and only -- member of the Keyboard Cripple Platforming Hater's Club. Platforming is definitely easier with the mouse because you can turn directly and with great speed. Everything is easier with the mouse for those who master it, so perhaps that's the reason I, as well, seldom play other FPSes which require freelook and whatnot. My nephews can do it, I can't. Some example set by the elder generation, huh?

Our esteemed thread maintainer Dobu is a keyboarder who designs and plays slaughtermaps. So if Dobu is listening, may I ask, do you have any demos of yourself in action? I'd love to see you getting jiggy with a Hell Revealed map. Indeed, I'd love to see any keyboarder demo of a nasty slaughtermap on UV. Maybe Obsidian has some???

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SteveD said:

Our esteemed thread maintainer Dobu is a keyboarder who designs and plays slaughtermaps. So if Dobu is listening, may I ask, do you have any demos of yourself in action? I'd love to see you getting jiggy with a Hell Revealed map. Indeed, I'd love to see any keyboarder demo of a nasty slaughtermap on UV. Maybe Obsidian has some???

Heh, I just bought a new desktop PC last month, and it came with a crappy little laptop-style keyboard; I had to run out to Best Buy and buy a new one because it wasn't sending all the simultaneous key inputs (ALT+SHIFT+→+↑+CTRL, for example) that I require when Dooming. :) (Not being shy about save-spamming also helps with the slaughtermaps, though that can backfire on me if I'm not careful; like that time in a pitched 20X6 fight where I thought I had a second to spare, so I saved--just before getting nailed with a revenant's rocket. It took me probably a dozen tries before I was able to type IDDQD fast enough to save my skin.)

Back on topic: I didn't even notice the HOM in MAP03. Was it that blue texture down the exit tunnel? It looked an awful lot like the portals in Epic 2, so I headed down the tunnel to check it out, but of course the level ended before I got a clear look.

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SteveD said:

Our esteemed thread maintainer Dobu is a keyboarder who designs and plays slaughtermaps. So if Dobu is listening, may I ask, do you have any demos of yourself in action? I'd love to see you getting jiggy with a Hell Revealed map. Indeed, I'd love to see any keyboarder demo of a nasty slaughtermap on UV. Maybe Obsidian has some???

Our very own gggmork is a keyboarder and the absolute best on the forum (he has a few demos floating around in slaughter threads). I would call my play average at best, as I'm one to frequently save every couple of minutes so I don't lose progress (that's how I make my way through the harder wads). I could try and whip a demo for some map so you can see how I play; just gotta find a suitable map.

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dobu gabu maru said:

Our very own gggmork is a keyboarder and the absolute best on the forum (he has a few demos floating around in slaughter threads). I would call my play average at best, as I'm one to frequently save every couple of minutes so I don't lose progress (that's how I make my way through the harder wads). I could try and whip a demo for some map so you can see how I play; just gotta find a suitable map.

Thanks for the tip on gggmork. As soon as you mentioned his name, I ran for the Swim With The Whales thread, because he posted FDAs for that, including an attempt to Tyson Map03. It's hard to imagine that anyone could Tyson a full-throated Ribbiks map, and that a keyboarder is good enough to even try is, well, inspirational! Alas, the download links to those FDAs are dead, but I often see him posting demos in the forum, so I'll be watching.

Yes, I'd love to see you in action sometime, whenever it is that you find the proper map. I'm still boggled that you make slaughtermaps when you say you're an "average" player. I'd never attempt your map The Manifold Fever on UV. That would be a tremendous number of saves -- and deaths! ;D How do you do it?

Getting back on topic, I'm gonna go play me some Whitemare 2 and post my thoughts on Cybermind's first map in the set.

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May as well give this a go, GZDoom (Doom-Strict compatibility settings) No jumping or crouching (duh), Mouselook on, Auto-Aim off, Continuous play, Saves kept to a minimum (Aka, save when it gets way too hard). Also playing on UV.

Nice foreboding music on the title-pic

MAP01-“Entry Gate" by Slavius [B0S]

Well, this is pretty well detailed, no secrets based on the HUD, but for map 1, this is easily forgiven. Sniped a few out the window by standing on the little raised ledges near the little bunker. Walking out and letting a few hitscanners weaken eachother then dealing with the left-overs typical map01 stuff.

Over into the next little area and the surprise on the wall immediately gives me horrible Plutonia flashbacks, well at least there aren't any revenants. So after introducing the chaingunners to Mr Shotty,I finish off a few more hitscanners above, then the imps behind the next door.

Good first map, although I have a horrible feeling the chaingun will make the next map a little too easy.

Kills/Items/Secrets=100/100/100 (28/0/0)

MAP02 - “Hall King" by Arsenikum
Aaaaaaand my fears are confirmed as I take out 1/4 of the map in the space of 10 seconds. Moving on, that chaingunner managed to scratch me a little, and....a mancubus? In Map02? Pleasantly surprised. After putting the shotty to good use, I carry on in search of the Yellow key down a shaft, chaingunning the imps and fellow chaingunner...thats it? No Secrets or extra enemies? This is shorter than map 1! Still, Mancubus caught me off guard.

(Also, the door at the bottom of the lift wasnt working, a quick check in doombuilder said it should of worked, so i had to noclip through.... i shouldnt really have to, but ugh, affected my time)

Kills/Items/Secrets=100/100/100 (32/0/0)

MAP03 “Snowbox Ascension" by Arsenikum
Good Music, and the enemy count has literally doubled...AND A SECRET TO FIND!!! Lots of hitscanners on low health, I see a Caco and i hear a revenant, great. Hit and run behind the building to whittle em down works until theres nothing left but the enemies on the "stairway" up, including 3 revenants and a helly. Slowly weakening them while dodging the revenenants works like a charm, figuring out i needed to shoot the switch let the revs get a hit on me though, leading to my first death.

5 deaths later and i finally lower the pillars, whew. Got the Rocket Launcher afterwards thanks to some quick running along the ice.

Kills/Items/Secrets=100/100/100 (64/0/1)

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Map 04 -- Caverns of the Damned - 69% Kills / 0% Secrets
Hmm, now this is a bit of an odd one. Cybermind was the author of 'The Ancient Mysteries' from the original Whitemare, but other than the general cavern setting, this is really nothing like that. Given its name, I wonder if it might be a tribute to 'Ice Cavern', also from the original Whitemare--it certainly looks the part, with very expansive rocky environments and plentiful open-air vistas later on--but again, it doesn't play anything like that map. At least where UV skill is concerned, I get the feeling that the player is not meant to kill all or even most of the monsters in this map; it's probably on the edge of mathematical possibility given the ammo supplied if you also find and use the berserk pack on a lot of the cavern imps/nobles (and if you can find just the right firing positions to compensate for or work around autoaim's limitations), but that hardly seems like the intended way of playing. The kill score above was my first run; I played it a second time immediately afterwards, and even finding both secrets and using the fist on a lot of stuff later on, I was still only able to manage 94% kills after firing every single round of ammo available, and even that number was padded somewhat by arch-vile resurrections (one of the secrets is a BFG that you can fire only once, probably best used on the Baron crowd in max attempt).

Not that I really have a problem with this design decision, mind. Maps like this, that mainly challenge you to be evasive and pick your battles over their whole duration, are a pretty rare thing, especially in this day and age (and shit, at least a third of the stuff like that from 'back in the day' is that way more as an interesting side-effect of awkward balancing rather than willful design). On my first attempt, after clearing out the initial caverns I started barreling forward as I am wont, past the first look at the vast ice chasm and into the lava caverns; rather than trying to clean that whole second cavern I sort of blitzed through it, hit the switch and moved on outside again. By that time the overall monster/ammo situation had gotten so far out of hand that trying to bring it back under control with my limited rockets and SSG seemed unwise, leaving me with no other choice but to press even further on, past the railed causeway and the Baron horde into the teleporter; I climbed the last ice spire while cacodemons swarmed around it, knocked a revenant out of my way at the top, and jumped into the exit teleporter just in time to avoid being vaporized by the 40 or so homing rockets issuing from incredibly distant revenants that had apparently ported in back around the exit to the second cavern some time ago. It was pretty exhilarating! It's not good for a mapset to take this tack too often--I think most of us play Doom not just to merely scrape by but to conquer--but once in a while something like this is very refreshing.

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Not going to get on this for a few days but I am excited to play it. Does anyone know if it needs Boom-compatibility, or can I get away with a limit-removing/complevel 2 port?

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Map04 - Caverns of The Damned by Cybermind - Kills - 78%, Secrets - 0%. Death Count - 6

Cybermind to the rescue! One more weak map and I might have packed it in. I was counting on Cybermind to turn the tide. I figured he would, because in Whitemare 1, I quit after wandering around aimlessly in Map08, but up until that point, Cybermind's Map05, The Ancient Mysteries, had been by far my favorite. It was damned good-looking, with great lighting, good fights and a nasty little trick at the end.

Caverns of The Damned is another nice-looking map, with great caverns and epic scope in its outside areas. This is kind of a hardcore map, though not a slaughter map. Even though there's only 195 monsters on UV, you encounter them in large groups and have to run around like crazy to avoid getting torched. Evil use of Revvies is made throughout, but especially the ones in the big outside area who target you from a high spire seemingly miles away, along with their Hell Knight buddies. They are much too far away for auto-aim.

The main cavern with the lava floor was beautifully designed and looked fantastic. The fights in here looked tough at first owing to the mass of monsters, but were surprisingly easy. Most of my deaths, in fact, occurred either in the first cavern thanks to Chaingunners (2), or in this big cavern room, but mostly because of fire from outside as the result of slow Revvie rockets from the high, distant spire waiting for me when I peeked out, plus a nastily-placed Arachnotron sniping from a distant ledge. I felt pinned-down at the openings of this room, but in reality, I was almost at the end.

If I had known ahead of time that I only needed to bull ahead towards the exit, I might have spared myself 3 deaths. Amusingly, I was right by the exit on my first run up, but I circled the wrong way and got killed by Revvies mere steps from escape.

This map is entirely linear, but Cybermind hides that a bit with wide rooms and terraced ledges that allow you to run every which way.

Bottom line, I really enjoyed this map. It was attractive, and it had things to shoot, and things that shot back. Good stuff.

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MAP04 Caverns of the Damned

From MAP05 and MAP13 of the original Whitemare comes Cybermind, with this, uh, map.

Suffice to say, I think it's the worst map so far. The caverns look cool, and are a reflection of Nil's previous offering from the first Whitemare. The gameplay is just balls though. It's all linear and there's lots of faraway enemies, including cacos and lost souls in the deep canyon. The Herian-like placement of faraway monsters is bullshit, especially the chaingunners in the cavern. Imps, revenants, and archviles on platforms, plus tons of snipers in the second cavern, I can't hit them all. It can be fun to run through the fireball slalom sometimes, but to actually kill the monsters is impossible. At one point I lured barons into a teleporter to telefrag them, which seemed like a good idea until fireballs hit my arse. And the monster teleporter closet was horribly constructed. I'll personally send a love letter to whomever manages to max this.

I at least get the BFG here, but then again, no cells. Oh yeah, no other player starts either. Boo.

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Map04 - “Caverns of the Damned" by Cybermind

Quite a welcome change in scale from the first 3 maps, massive open areas which look quite impressive, and though they are fairly sparsely populated given the size, the majority of the threat comes from far away snipers. Particularly the revenants given the lack of cover. A lot of these distant enemies appear to be out of range and I couldn't find any way of getting close enough to kill them, unless there is a secret route I missed. In particular there are a couple of archviles who didn't pose any threat to me at all, maybe they were there just to keep the other monsters alive to constantly fire at you.. Reaching the exit was fairly straightforward, in fact given that you are kept running by the ranged attacks you end up just running past everything else as well, and can dodge your way to the exit leaving most of the opposition alive. Going back to finish them off I discovered some I couldn't reach, and some that inexplicably appeared back in the lava cave. I can only imagine these were to gradually encroach on players who took ages to fight their way up the mountain, or headed back to search for supplies. I couldn't find enough ammo to deal with the monsters I could hit, so I'm guessing killing everything wasn't a major concern to the mapper.

Design-wise it looks cool, some nice lighting in the caves. There are some razor sharp corners on the rocks here and there which look a bit weird.

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MAP04 - Caverns of the Damned
152/168 kills | 0/2 secrets | 2/4 secrets | 21:17

Ugh. This one seemed so promising, too. I should've been clued in when I was immediately cut down in the second room by elevated chaingunners too far away for me to autoaim at. I was ready for them with my rocket launcher the second time, but then I hit the switch and step outside (what a view!) and it's fireballs and plasma shots everywhere. Holy crap! I run for the tunnel on my right and it's out of the frying and literally into the fire. I died a few times getting caught in the manc/HK crossfire, but it's the good kind of tough, not the maddening kind. I eventually make it back outside, and it's cacos everywhere, and is that a bunch of archviles and imps out of reach across the chasm? The barons atop the hill kill me good a couple times before I just say "Screw it" and make for the teleporter. Then it's up and around (SSGing revenants out of my way) and I duck into the cave at the top and--oh. That was the end? But I'm only at 76% kills! So I load up my last save and make with the killing. But what I find is that without freelooking, I can't even shoot at the archies and their friends, or the spiders and revenants on their islands. I waste a bunch of ammo trying, then head back to look for secrets. I can't figure out how to reach the early beserk, so I give up and head back to the exit.

I agree with DotW that maps where you can't kill everything have their place. In my mind, though, that place is in the later maps of a megawad. (Goodness knows I just hightailed it through the last half-dozen maps of, say, Zone 300.) But I find it extremely frustrating when I'm not even allowed the attempt at 100% kills because enemies are placed out of reach of my arsenal. So this map really left a bad taste in my mouth.

The visuals were nice, though. Although one of the pillars in the lava cavern had a mismatched texture on part of it; was that part of one of the secrets I missed? (If it was, I couldn't figure out how to trigger it.)

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MAP04: Caverns of the Damned - Cybermind
| Kills: 91/116 | Items: 2/4 | Secrets: 0/2 | Time: 04:28 | Deaths: 1 |

Finally a decent sized level, which also allows a chance to telefrag some barons. Those revenants by the exit can be a huge pain in the ass if you're not careful (which I wasn't on my first go). The caverns themselves featured an opportunity for RL vs Mancubi and hell knight packs, which was pretty fun. Not entirely sure how you're supposed to damage those other monsters at the end (Arch-Viles etc), but it's annoying that they can still get you despite this.
At least there was a decent amount of time spent playing this map.


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