Hooking modern gamers on DOOM

Doomguy = Masterchief's Daddy, as in:

"Who's yer daddy?!"

I read a couple of people saying that modern gamers complain about the poor a.i. Well, I remember reading PC Gamer back in 1994 and someone wrote in to complain that Doom isn't so special, and that all he did was 'run around and shoot monsters that were dumb as mud.' So people were apparently complaining about poor a.i. back in 1994. So I guess people playing pretty much exclusively against other human controlled opponents was inevitable. Never mind that the simple a.i. in Doom doesn't hurt the gameplay. I'll bet that most of these gamers would get raped on skill four playing, perhaps... Episode Three. Forget about Doom 2, Final Doom, and all those crazy Pwads!

I always thought that poor AI accompanied by insurmountable numbers is the best kinda gameplay you can get, as so many zombie games have proven in recent years.

Are there any FPS games without poor "AI" yet? I still think the best I've played was Perfect Dark, ten years ago. (Can you even call it AI when it's just stepping down numerous lists checking condition after condition?)

Dragonsbrethren said:

Are there any FPS games without poor "AI" yet? I still think the best I've played was Perfect Dark, ten years ago. (Can you even call it AI when it's just stepping down numerous lists checking condition after condition?)

Well it's not supposed to be AI in the "I can pass the Turing Test" meaning, but it's still AI anyway.

Even those monsters in vintage games that merely followed geometric pathways, with no awareness of the player avatar's position, had AI.

If the AI becomes too good, the monsters risk becoming bots. But I could really use some more variation in Doom.

printz said:
But I could really use some more variation in Doom.

I get plenty variation when I play DM or CTF.

Players that don't like the simple monster AI don't have a valid excuse to avoid the furious head to head multiplayer!

You'll always get that with new gamers as they lack experiance with games of the past that they think the games which are now are the only games about. All games like doom 1/2 are none excistent in there call of duty modern warfare, Halo 3 world. Plus doesn't help that every single review bases games on graphics mostly so thats how people will think about games.

Fluffles said:

Plus doesn't help that every single review bases games on graphics mostly so thats how people will think about games.

That is probaly the worst excuse for not playing a game anyone can ever come up with. Who fucking cares about graphics? Unless they make the game unplayable, there shoudln't be anything against them. I don't get why so many people base it off of graphics. Or Story for that matter. While I like story sometimes for establishing canon, we can really do with out it.

Yeah it is in our eyes mate but I've had about 4 friends who have watched me play doom go "that game look shit, just look at the graphics...". Most inexperiance gamers who know jack all about games always talk about how bad graphics is.

Clonehunter said:

Speaking of RealGuns2, I've seen some kick ass videos for it, but where can I actually find the mod itself? And how do I use it?

http://skulltag.net/

Load up the server browser and I guarantee that you'll find some Real Guns mod being played. Personally, I dislike it, but that's just my opinion. It was way overused during its earlier releases, which killed it for me.

Graphics vs. Gameplay

I've got Fallout 3. Had to build a new computer in order to play it. The graphics are good, but there's nothing in it that has ever made me say: "OMFG! That looks so REAL!" About a week after I had installed the game I had already completed its lame main storyline.

What am I doing now? Playing Doom II Master Levels. Why? Because the gameplay, challenge to my skills, and general fun factor of Doom blows FO3 away again and again.

But the problem with this thread is that we all agree on this. We're preaching to the choir, as they say. What we need to do is devise some method of reaching out to today's new generation of gamers.

Anybody got any good ideas?

Herculine said:

But the problem with this thread is that we all agree on this. We're preaching to the choir, as they say. What we need to do is devise some method of reaching out to today's new generation of gamers.

Why bother doing that again? So you can convince people what they're playing is shit and what you play is awesome?

It's better that moaning and groaning about it in this thread. If we don't care, why are we still typing new posts?

Herculine said:
[B
Anybody got any good ideas? [/B]

Assimilate the Non-Belivers. They can be called, the DORG

Herculine said:

Graphics vs. Gameplay

I've got Fallout 3. Had to build a new computer in order to play it. The graphics are good, but there's nothing in it that has ever made me say: "OMFG! That looks so REAL!" About a week after I had installed the game I had already completed its lame main storyline.

Bethesda games' main storylines have always been really short and pretty meh. And their graphics are not their selling point. The exploration, finding new things, and the lore of the background world is what draws me and I'd assume most other people who like their games in. You're using the wrong game for your argument.

On topic, I talk about dooming with friends but don't push them to play it - more of mention what map I'm working on now and what cool idea it's centered around. But they're either WoW gamers, like realistic FPS, or go for the multiplayer (which I don't do in doom) so I don't have much to offer them.

Herculine said:
It's better that moaning and groaning about it in this thread. If we don't care, why are we still typing new posts?

We don't need to "reach out" any more than we are doing because slowly but surely, we're getting newcomers every day. The community continues to thrive, so along with the growth of the Internet, people continue to arrive. The best we can do to attract people, is enjoy the game ourselves.

The repetitive use of "moaning," "groaning" or "whining" whenever people complain or express some dilemma, issue, limitation or frustration happens in cultures where a critical stance is seen as undesirable, where the idea is to be better than others (with the ever present image of "losers moaning" out there) rather than being better in oneself, intrinsically. In the end it's a statement like "yeah, I suck, but at least I'm better than you" with "you" being either imaginary, actively degraded for that purpose, or both.

myk said:

I get plenty variation when I play DM or CTF.

Players that don't like the simple monster AI don't have a valid excuse to avoid the furious head to head multiplayer!

You're only deepening my monsters-vs-bots(or better yet players) AI-rationing dilemma.

myk said:

Players that don't like the simple monster AI don't have a valid excuse to avoid the furious head to head multiplayer!

Here's one: A honest preference for playing alone.

Anyway, speaking about AI, I couldn't care less how "stupid" the AI is (as in how well it's able to think on its own), but I do think that Doom could use some more variety in its bestiary. I don't mean monsters that are just recolors of the old ones with different stats, but ones that have completely different logic or attack patterns. In the end, imps, cacos, knights, barons and cybers all attack the exact same way, by throwing single missiles directly to where the player is. That's behavior that does get old, and is extremely easy to fight against. Arachnotrons are almost the same, although in some situations their continuous fire does set them apart. Still, the only truly different monsters in Doom are revs, mancs, PEs and AVs, and after so many years of playing...yeah.

Unfortunately a lot of custom monsters are really poorly done and/or used and most of them just rehash the old behaviors instead of trying to make monsters that are actually interesting to fight.

Jodwin said:
Here's one: A honest preference for playing alone.

Sure, but that's something else. My response was tied to bimlander's, which implied that since people didn't like DOOM's or other games' limited AI, they're now used to multiplayer-oriented FPS games.

Unfortunately a lot of custom monsters are really poorly done and/or used and most of them just rehash the old behaviors instead of trying to make monsters that are actually interesting to fight.

I think this is, for the most part, partly because of how good the balance of monsters works in DOOM, especially DOOM II (I can't say I'm getting tired of the monsters and their possible arrangements compared to the marine's arsenal) and partly because mods mainly rely on reusing the same traits those monsters already have, because that is more straightforward than recoding behavior. The latter is true to a good degree even in more advanced engines, that have most of the monster design options tied to the monsters from the original games, and much, much more so in Doom or Boom compatibles. (Add then the ties between game play and demos, and the distance between advanced mods and consistent demoing.) The redundancy in mods is largely technical and game play based, and not so much a fault of designers.

A buddy of mine I met back in grade school who was really into computers like I was was shown Doom for the first time in maybe 2003. He thought the game looked hideous, and made it clear how bad he thought it looked.. but then he played it. And today he still plays Doom every once in a while.


I don't think I'm ever going to stop playing Doom for good. Hell, I haven't even been playing games that are all that new as of late. I've been on one hell of a Mega Man binge lately.

Herculine said:

But the problem with this thread is that we all agree on this. We're preaching to the choir, as they say. What we need to do is devise some method of reaching out to today's new generation of gamers.

Anybody got any good ideas?

Managing not to alienate a lot of people who already love Doom would be a pretty good start.

[qualifier]
I know that statement probably comes off as pretty trollish, and in spite of that comment, I really think that this is a pretty remarkable community, and the mapping/modding/programming talent floating around these forums is in no small way responsible for Doom's longevity. The very fact that 17 years on from Doom's original release, we are even having a thread discussing how to get more people involved is a testament to the overall success of this community.

But I can't help but feel that if we had just treated a number of people who have come and gone from these forums a little better, this community could be much bigger and vibrant than it already is.
[/qualifier]

Kyka said:

Managing not to alienate a lot of people who already love Doom would be a pretty good start.

[qualifier]
I know that statement probably comes off as pretty trollish, and in spite of that comment, I really think that this is a pretty remarkable community, and the mapping/modding/programming talent floating around these forums is in no small way responsible for Doom's longevity. The very fact that 17 years on from Doom's original release, we are even having a thread discussing how to get more people involved is a testament to the overall success of this community.

But I can't help but feel that if we had just treated a number of people who have come and gone from these forums a little better, this community could be much bigger and vibrant than it already is.
[/qualifier]

I've seen that happen in other modding communities. It seems inevitable when we get so many different people together of diverse opinions, preferences etc. Unfortunately, I don't know of any way we can readily avoid it. Even on gaming sites where they have very strict restrictions on language and what you're allowed to say to others, someone invariably gets upset and packs it up, sometimes permanently. I guess these are flaws in us humans that we need to overcome as a whole, and I doubt that we will any time in the near future.

I know i probably sound weird saying this, but I'm not in favor of reaching out to modern gamers to get them back into Doom. Doom is a great game and all, but from what I understand, almost all people being introduced to Doom, these "retro gamers" so to speak, seem to jump right into the Skulltag/ZDoom bandwagon because they are the most flexible engines to edit and play with.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great people are playing doom, but all modern gamers seem kinda the same to me. Whenever I'm reading skulltag forums, almost everyone appears to have the same exact response in every thread. Hardly anyone has any real personality, and when someone has a question about editing, people always jump right up front and suggest things like MAPINFO, or DECORATE or 3D bridges.

I think the best approach would probably be getting people who aren't even into video games at all into Doom.

Kyka said:

Managing not to alienate a lot of people who already love Doom would be a pretty good start.

[qualifier]
I know that statement probably comes off as pretty trollish, and in spite of that comment, I really think that this is a pretty remarkable community, and the mapping/modding/programming talent floating around these forums is in no small way responsible for Doom's longevity. The very fact that 17 years on from Doom's original release, we are even having a thread discussing how to get more people involved is a testament to the overall success of this community.

But I can't help but feel that if we had just treated a number of people who have come and gone from these forums a little better, this community could be much bigger and vibrant than it already is.
[/qualifier]

I agree - and disagree. There have been some really skilled people here who have left because of the community (Death-Destiny, anyone?), which is certainly unfortunate. However, quitting Doom completely just because someone else on the Internet doesn't like you is childish. Those people could have just as well left Doomworld if they wanted to, and moved over to an other Doom community, but quitting the game is pointless.

Also, although Doomworld is somewhat elitist, it also helps to keep a certain level of "quality" in the community. As a result of demanding a bit more maturity from its members, DW is much more tolerable and productive than communities where the people are either less mature or critical (see 40oz's comment on Skulltag-and-other Doom forums).



...of course, DWers also have moments of immaturity now and then, but it's better to go nuts once in a few months than being so all the time.

40oz said:

I know i probably sound weird saying this, but I'm not in favor of reaching out to modern gamers to get them back into Doom. Doom is a great game and all, but from what I understand, almost all people being introduced to Doom, these "retro gamers" so to speak, seem to jump right into the Skulltag/ZDoom bandwagon because they are the most flexible engines to edit and play with.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great people are playing doom, but all modern gamers seem kinda the same to me. Whenever I'm reading skulltag forums, almost everyone appears to have the same exact response in every thread. Hardly anyone has any real personality, and when someone has a question about editing, people always jump right up front and suggest things like MAPINFO, or DECORATE or 3D bridges.

I think the best approach would probably be getting people who aren't even into video games at all into Doom.

So...in other words you'd rather leave them to CoD etc. just because they'd rather play ZDoom/Skulltag than vanilla. Surely them playing Doom in any form is better than them not playing Doom at all?

40oz said:

I know i probably sound weird saying this, but I'm not in favor of reaching out to modern gamers to get them back into Doom. Doom is a great game and all, but from what I understand, almost all people being introduced to Doom, these "retro gamers" so to speak, seem to jump right into the Skulltag/ZDoom bandwagon because they are the most flexible engines to edit and play with.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great people are playing doom, but all modern gamers seem kinda the same to me. Whenever I'm reading skulltag forums, almost everyone appears to have the same exact response in every thread. Hardly anyone has any real personality, and when someone has a question about editing, people always jump right up front and suggest things like MAPINFO, or DECORATE or 3D bridges.

I think the best approach would probably be getting people who aren't even into video games at all into Doom.

I'm not sure I follow what it is you're trying to say.

I think it's only logical that most people would cater to ZDoom and it's variants, considering how straight forward and customizable the controls are.

Granted, you are going to get people who insist on playing with jump enabled, and could care less how much it breaks the game.

Mike.Reiner said:

Granted, you are going to get people who insist on playing with jump enabled, and could care less how much it breaks the game.

Like Me...

Kyka said:

Managing not to alienate a lot of people who already love Doom would be a pretty good start.

No shit. Hey you know what sounds fun? Getting a bunch of stupid noob 'gamers' with no taste into Doom, boy that sounds like a great fucking idea. I say let the idiots play Gear of War, who cares. People who are really interested will follow the trails and eventually end up here anyway, so let it happen naturally.

Jodwin said:

(Death-Destiny, anyone?)

Debatable.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Doom is more or less used as a medium for people to create their own games based on what they enjoy in the other games they play. I'm looking at the skulltag projects section right now. The very top threads are Real Guns Advanced, Super Skulltag, Doom fortress, Medieval Invasion, Zombie mod, All out war, Hide and seek, etc.

I just think that if you were introducing people to doom who aren't already influenced by all the games that are out these days, they'd be creating more doom related stuff instead of pop-culture stuff. If they were interested in Doom itself and not just a flexible editing engine they'd probably have more original ideas like some kind of unnofficial sequel to Doom 2 or something, instead of an attempt to create a new game.

There really isn't anything I can suggest to be done about it. It's probably a lot easier to find a gamer who might be interested in trying doom than someone who doesn't play video games at all. Admittedly this is selfish of me to say, but I'm just not in favor of introducing people to doom who don't have much originality.