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hardcore_gamer
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I was not sure if this belonged here or in Wads and Mods (I will explain why shortly) but I then decided that it probably belonged here. Also, this thread is really about 2 questions rather then just one.

First question: While the Doom games have a lot of great maps, they also have a lot of filler levels as well that don't seem to serve any purpose besides making the games last longer.

In your opinion, what levels/maps from The Ultimate Doom/Doom 2/Final Doom do you consider to be filler that serve no purpose besides padding the games to make the last longer?

In my own opinion I think huge chunks of Final Doom can be considered to be nothing but filler levels. In addition, I feel that levels like Refueling Base and The Chasm from Doom 2 are good examples of filler levels.

In your opinion what levels can be considered to be filler?

The second question that is directly related and the reason I was not sure if this belonged here or in Wads or Mods (I put it here because the topic or mostly about Doom itself rather then actual level editing):

Do you think its a neat idea to put together a sort of a fan made custom version of Doom called "The Best of Doom" or something that contains essentially all of the best levels from all of the Doom games but none of the bad filler ones? Because I think it would be neat to be able to play literally all of the best Doom levels in a row within a single game without having to grind through any of the bad/dull ones. What are your thoughts on this idea?

And yes I am aware that such a PWAD could not be posted on /idgames since it doesn't allow edited Id levels, but as a fan project I still think it would be pretty cool.

EDIT: I will be even more precise with the question. If you could select 32 maps from all of the Doom games and put them into a single PWAD, which maps would it be?

Discuss.

Last edited by hardcore_gamer on 11-03-12 at 17:14

Old Post 11-03-12 03:42 #
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SweatyGremlins
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I'm gonna get shot here but... I thought Doom 2 was filler :O

I much prefer Plutonia, TNT and Doom64 as new content, Doom 2 felt like a cash-in expansion.

E1M1 forever!


And yeah why not collect all the best of official maps? But how do you sort that out, polls? Competitions!

Old Post 11-03-12 04:01 #
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hex11
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Heh, The Chasm is one of my favorite DOOM II maps.

I guess you could say some of the E4 maps were filler, but I can't think of anything in E1-3, or DOOM II, though I didn't much care for MAP31-32.

Old Post 11-03-12 04:35 #
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Sodaholic
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E2M9 for sure.

Old Post 11-03-12 04:44 #
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Obsidian
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I haven't really played Doom or Final Doom, but MAP04, MAP17 and MAP25 of Doom II didn't really strike me as prominent.

Old Post 11-03-12 04:57 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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SweatyGremlins said:
I'm gonna get shot here but... I thought Doom 2 was filler :O

Sad thing is if I went back a few years I'd probably agree with you. I've really come to appreciate a lot of Doom 2's map design, particularly Romero's stuff. I used to think the guy lost his touch after E1, now I can see he was just bored of his old style and wanted to try something completely different. (Shame he didn't add true height checks for monster collision, given how vertical his maps were.)

I'm honestly having a hard time thinking of one id map that felt like it had no reason for existing. Maybe MAP21. The start area with tons of medikits gimmick could've worked if the level was loaded with tough monsters or other ways of damaging yourself, but as it's designed they're completely unneeded.

Old Post 11-03-12 05:07 #
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esselfortium
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SweatyGremlins said:
I'm gonna get shot here but... I thought Doom 2 was filler :O

I much prefer Plutonia, TNT and Doom64 as new content, Doom 2 felt like a cash-in expansion.


Yeah, I agree completely. The new levels, monsters, and other resources made in-house by id Software themselves were a cheap cash-in, and not the time when they decided to sell a community megawad without bothering to quality-control any of it. :)

Old Post 11-03-12 05:46 #
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SweatyGremlins
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That's true, but Plutonia and TNT felt original or exciting (like some of the cacoward and other projects) for some reason, Doom 2 just felt like new shotgun + random levels. The exception is NRFTL, I really like that episode.

Oh and it's only a subjective view, no reason for setting knickers on fire!

Old Post 11-03-12 07:12 #
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LkMax
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SweatyGremlins said:
That's true, but Plutonia and TNT felt original or exciting (like some of the cacoward and other projects) for some reason, Doom 2 just felt like new shotgun + random levels. The exception is NRFTL, I really like that episode.

Totally agree.
I remember the first time I played Doom 2 I was in shock at how bad the levels were designed - aestetically speaking. I almost threw up when I played the city levels. urgh... after another playthroug (Doom 2 was still fun to play anyway) I got used to them but never really liked most of the maps. TNT on the other hand was fun and had some well designed maps IMO (and some shitty ones too, but still less than Doom 2).

Old Post 11-03-12 14:26 #
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Archvile78
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Sodaholic said:
E2M9 for sure.

I'll add, E3M9 to this. :p

Old Post 11-03-12 15:39 #
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Eris Falling
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Archvile78 said:

I'll add, E3M9 to this. :p



This.

Old Post 11-03-12 15:41 #
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Gez
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E2M9, E3M9, and The Chasm are not filler. If you think that, you missed the point. These maps are a bit experimental as they toy with concepts that stray away from normal levels: Fortress of Mystery is a cramped area full of tough monsters and you have to initiate infighting to win; Warrens places you in a familiar place before turning it on its head; the Chasm is architecturally like nothing else in Doom II, etc.

Filler maps would be unremarkable maps that don't seem to have any real thought or concept behind. Not "I'll try to make a map that does this and that", but "I have to make a map and I have no idea, let's just trace some lines and call it a day".

As filler maps, I'd designate:
- The second half of Barrels of Fun. Seems like Sandy had no idea what to do after the barrel corridor and just drew some random shapes haphazardly.
- Nirvana. Enough said.
- Icon of Sin. It's really just a vehicle for the boss fight against a wall. All the effort went into the code and texture work. There's nothing about the level design itself that is noteworthy.

Old Post 11-03-12 16:07 #
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Eris Falling
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Gez said:
Filler maps would be unremarkable maps that don't seem to have any real thought or concept behind. Not "I'll try to make a map that does this and that", but "I have to make a map and I have no idea, let's just trace some lines and call it a day".

Icon of Sin. It's really just a vehicle for the boss fight against a wall. All the effort went into the code and texture work. There's nothing about the level design itself that is noteworthy.



You seem to be contradicting yourself there. Icon of Sin could've been designed a lot better yes, but it did have a concept to it - the final boss fight.

Old Post 11-03-12 16:14 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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LkMax said:

Totally agree.
I remember the first time I played Doom 2 I was in shock at how bad the levels were designed - aestetically speaking. I almost threw up when I played the city levels. urgh... after another playthroug (Doom 2 was still fun to play anyway) I got used to them but never really liked most of the maps. TNT on the other hand was fun and had some well designed maps IMO (and some shitty ones too, but still less than Doom 2).


TNT has better aesthetics than Doom 2? Am I in bizzaro world?

Old Post 11-03-12 16:53 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Its nice reading your opinions :)

Anyways, I will be even more precise with the second question. If you could select 32 maps from all of the Doom games and put them into a single PWAD, which maps would it be?

At least as far as Doom 2 is concerned I got some suggestions:

-Underhalls
-Dead Simple
-Circle of Death
-The Inmost Dens
-Tenements
-The Courtyard
-Nirvana
-The Catacombs

I will come up with some suggestions for the other Doom games soon enough :)

Last edited by hardcore_gamer on 11-03-12 at 17:27

Old Post 11-03-12 17:16 #
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Enjay
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E2M9 is actually a really interesting experimental map IMO. Initially (in '93) I thought it was just an almost impossible very small map thrown together with no real care or consideration for how to play it. Then I realised that infighting was the way to deal with it and that the challenge and fun of the map (for me) is to shepherd the bad guys around to get the most efficient in-battles possible leaving the player with very little to mop up afterwards. I might consider it a filler if it was just one of the main "must play through this to progress" maps but its position as a secret map is perfect and makes it not a filler IMO.

As for E3M9 I have always liked it and I would rate it as one of my favourite maps from the original game. I really like the way it makes you think that you're just playing E3M1 again (obviously this only works the first time), has a reasonable boss fight, makes you work your way back through the level encountering new and quite significant threats and additions to the architecture that simply weren't there the first time you passed through and it does so using almost all of the enemies in the Doom bestiary. Most definitely not a filler IMO.

I'm actually struggling to identify any clear-cut filler maps from the original games. I'm not a great fan of much of Doom2 but I still wouldn't consider most of the maps as being nothing more than a filler. They all have some purpose, focus, feel, challenge or style that gives them value in their own right and are not just there to pad the game to 32 levels.

Old Post 11-03-12 17:27 #
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Gez
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Eris Falling said:
You seem to be contradicting yourself there. Icon of Sin could've been designed a lot better yes, but it did have a concept to it - the final boss fight.


That's not a concept to me. If it was, it was already done better with E1M8 and E2M8. E3M8 would be filler, too. There's nothing really interesting about the arena.

MAP30 has no idea behind it. It's just a vehicle for the scripted behavior of the boss shooter. Compare with Phobos Anomaly, which has character even outside of being a boss map: breaking through the wall at the beginning, blowing up the demons in the nukage pool, then walking down the long corridor to find yourself in a surreal place; and after the demonic bruisers are vanquished, the walls around you melt and you are back to a sort of normalcy, though the anomaly persists... And then, you step on the demonic teleport, perhaps die, and find yourself on Phobos.

MAP30: you restock, teleport, run up some huge graded elevators, activate a switch, and then move up and down a big elevator while pumping rockets into the brain and avoiding attacks from other demons.

Everything that really makes the map what it is is in the C code; not in the map geometry.

Old Post 11-03-12 17:38 #
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Eris Falling
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Gez said:
There's nothing really interesting about the arena.

MAP30: you restock, teleport, run up some huge graded elevators, activate a switch, and then move up and down a big elevator while pumping rockets into the brain and avoiding attacks from other demons.

Everything that really makes the map what it is is in the C code; not in the map geometry.




I said:
Icon of Sin could've been designed a lot better


I don't deny MAP30 - and E3M8 - were absolutely awful. But they were by no means a filler map.

Old Post 11-03-12 18:04 #
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dew
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hardcore_gamer said:
-Underhalls

the map that introduced the ssg is filler? the iconic sewer area with the BK and barrels is padding?

-Dead Simple

the prototype of all arena/invasion maps ever after, introduces mancubuses and arachnotrons, has specially coded monster tags... yeah, totally filler.

-Circle of Death

one of the most celebrated maps in doom2, also introduced the arch-vile. one of the few maps with some sort of deathmatch balance.

-The Inmost Dens

i'd pick this one for top3 maps of all iwads. it's certainly nothing like anything else in id-created iwads, the open architecture is fantastic and had great impact on pwad mapping (and plutonia).

-Tenements

pardon me? you must have the names mistaken.

-The Courtyard

it's filler in the same sense of any petersen map being filler. it was probably mapped in like 4 hours and sandy just experimented with trap rooms. rushed, rough and sometimes too silly (i don't like it) doesn't mean the map is characterless fluff.

-Nirvana

totally filler, but whatevs. nirvana 4ever, fools!

-The Catacombs

i'm going to agree for once.

(this thread sucks)

EDIT: the chasm is a doom e3 (imho) map misplaced into doom2. it either wasn't ready by the time doom came out, or it was breaking some doom.exe limit. the doom2 stuff in it is just an afterthought. just trowing that out for all the doom2 haters out there.

Last edited by dew on 11-03-12 at 18:38

Old Post 11-03-12 18:28 #
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Eris Falling
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He's moved on from fillers.

Old Post 11-03-12 18:43 #
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Mystery Man in 3D
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I KNOW I'm gonna get slammed for this, but I don't care...

I personally think Ultimate DOOM is like the Special Edition of Star Wars. Even though I'm able to beat it, I always hated how Thy Flesh Consumed was far more difficult and far more inconsistent than the other three episodes. Plus, DOOM worked really well as a standalone game, and it was even more disgusting that TFC tied DOOM's storyline in with DOOM II's. Plus I never liked that "THE ULTIMATE" thing on the DOOM title screen. I was so happy when I finally got the opportunity to downgrade and take "Ultimate" out of the original DOOM.

I love and preserve the original "non-ultimate" DOOM Registered v1.9 just as much as I love and preserve the original "non-anh" 1977 Star Wars.

Old Post 11-03-12 18:44 #
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dew
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Eris Falling said:
He's moved on from fillers.

wait, wait... so that's his the best of list? why would nirvana, the courtyard and the catacombs be there? that makes even less sense!

Old Post 11-03-12 18:46 #
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Mystery Man in 3D said:
I always hated how Thy Flesh Consumed was far more difficult and far more inconsistent than the other three episodes

What makes you say that it was inconsistent? Texture-wise, at least, it was way more consistent than any other episode: two words, wood and marble, pretty much describe the whole texturing theme.

And I think it makes sense that the "addon" episode is far more difficult. People beat the original Doom, they wanted a bigger challenge - they got it. Isn't that how most game expansions work?

Old Post 11-03-12 18:55 #
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hardcore_gamer
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dew said:

wait, wait... so that's his the best of list? why would nirvana, the courtyard and the catacombs be there? that makes even less sense!



I thought that the courtyard was pretty awesome, and that the catacombs had some fun close range combat.

Anyways, here are my suggestions for the best levels of The Ultimate Doom:

-Nuclear Plant
-Computer Station
-Refinery
-Command Center
-House of Pain
-Mt. Erebus
-Hell Beneath
-Sever the Wicked
-Unto the Cruel

I am afraid that I don't really remember all of the levels from Final Doom so other people might have to come up with their own suggestions for me. What are the best TNT and Plutonia levels?

Old Post 11-03-12 18:58 #
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Eris Falling
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hardcore_gamer said:

I am afraid that I don't really remember all of the levels from Final Doom so other people might have to come up with their own suggestions for me. What are the best TNT and Plutonia levels?



Well you like House of Pain and the Catacombs so I can see we are going to clash on opinion. Nevertheless, here are my suggestions

TNT
MAP01 - System Control
MAP12 - Crater
MAP13 - Nukage Processing
MAP15 - Dead Zone
MAP16 - Deepest Reaches
MAP24 - Lunar Mining Project

Plutonia
MAP11 - Hunted
MAP29 - Odyssey of Noises
MAP32 - Go 2 It (just for the challenge)

Not really a massive fan of Plutonia's levels if I'm totally honest.

Old Post 11-03-12 19:09 #
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Ah, E4 and your challenge. I'm curious how E4 would have been done if they started splicing the Doom 2 monsters into there, but I think it's fine without them.

Doom 2 is curious for me, I don't play it very often, but when I do go in and start playing it (whether it is pure vanilla with Chocolate or something or with a fancy new gameplay mod for ZDoom), I tend to have fun with it. The city levels are a very abstract representation of a city, but I think they introduce enough elements derived from reality so they work to an extent. They actually don't feel that bad to me, even when you're playing on a large 1920x1080 screen in ZDoom with 60+ fps and everything that doom apparently isn't. The Chasm almost feels kind of iconic to me, the way it's designed seems almost like it's yet another good representation of the distinctive Doom 2 style.

Old Post 11-03-12 19:12 #
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Gez
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InsanityBringer said:
Ah, E4 and your challenge. I'm curious how E4 would have been done if they started splicing the Doom 2 monsters into there, but I think it's fine without them.

Maybe just the hell knight, arch-vile, and (possibly) pain elemental. The chaingunner could have been used to.

But the monsters with cyborg parts (mancubus, arachnotron, revenant) wouldn't have fit, thematically.

Old Post 11-03-12 20:02 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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I think I hate more of TNT than I like, but I have a thing for Wormhole. It's not even that great of a map, but the concept is unique and interesting. I've always wanted to make a level based on its mechanics, using it kind of like time travel in Sonic CD, where items are linked between "dimensions" and certain things can be seen in both but only collected in one.

Edit: I lie. I want to make an entire game based on this concept, one where it has an effect on more than just the ending you get.

Last edited by Dragonsbrethren on 11-04-12 at 17:56

Old Post 11-03-12 20:03 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Eris Falling said:


Well you like House of Pain and the Catacombs so I can see we are going to clash on opinion. Nevertheless, here are my suggestions

TNT
MAP01 - System Control
MAP12 - Crater
MAP13 - Nukage Processing
MAP15 - Dead Zone
MAP16 - Deepest Reaches
MAP24 - Lunar Mining Project

Plutonia
MAP11 - Hunted
MAP29 - Odyssey of Noises
MAP32 - Go 2 It (just for the challenge)

Not really a massive fan of Plutonia's levels if I'm totally honest.



Those are some so so suggestions. I like NP and LMP and Hunted, but I don't know about the rest though.

Anyone else has more suggestions? I am seriously thinking about putting together a custom pwad that has only the best levels in them so that I don't have to play all of the other ones as well.

Old Post 11-03-12 21:17 #
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hardcore_gamer said:


Anyways, here are my suggestions for the best levels of The Ultimate Doom:

-Refinery


Speaking of filler levels, such a thread can't be complete without e2m3: Refinery! :D

Old Post 11-03-12 22:54 #
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