Too much ammo

At times, I've heard maps being criticized for having too much ammo. I suppose this is in relation to the opposition, in which having to manage a shortage of ammo would complement the difficulty I was curious if people who have said this have exceptions to this.

For example, I've been contemplating the idea of having large ammo stashes in a secret area near the starting point of almost any normal map. As long as the map isn't an arena as much as it would just be a normal progressive map that utilizes all monsters with maybe a cyberdemon fight at the end, and with a normal non-slaughter-like density. The secret (or perhaps a secret within a secret) could have upwards of 20-30 shell boxes.

My justification for this is that you can't carry the shells very far without a backpack, ammunition wouldn't be a concern in -skill 5 if you know where the secrets are, and that if the map is played in vanilla coop without item respawns, there would be enough ammunition for coop play even if the players die a lot or are overly wasteful.

Is there really any negative effects for that?

Sounds like balance by annoyance, which is tricky to pull off.

I see it a little like low inventory space in loot-based ARPGs. You have people who don't sweat it, and just leave half the stuff on the floor. You have people who somewhat optimize, and may backtrack a little if it helps. Then you have people who are compelled to use every resource optimally, and they will make several trips to get everything.

Being forced into a tedious playstyle by compulsions beyond your control isn't very fun.

Personally, I love the idea. I say the above as someone who has tried other forms of balance by annoyance (even if it didn't register as such in my mind at the time) several times in his own Doom maps and failed miserably.

ah, the Wolfenstein 3D method! i'd encourage pursuing it... such a set-up would suit a big free-form adventure map but would fairly hamstring a map that proceeds in a linear fashion.

I have seen a few concept maps where all the ammo is placed early, so rather than storming through levels arcade-style, you make forays and expeditions to various corners of the level and then return to restock once you've solved some small part of a puzzle. very challenging and very satisfying at their best. I think death-destiny made a huge epic level with this strategy.

Ehhhh, unless you naturally cross that area again, backtracking would become a pain after a while. Though, I supposed as a catch-all for ammo-wasters it's not a terrible idea.

Really, I'd rather mappers add multiple not-quite-secrets throughout the map, and hide ammo boosts there. By not-quite-secrets I mean, like, dark areas, optional little side-areas, monster closets, etc. - things you could miss if you're doing well, but the kind of paths you check out when you're low on health/ammo.

I suppose you could have teleporters open up to link areas to the stash and back as they get cleared out, just to cut the backtrackage.

I suppose I forgot to mention that I wouldn't starve the player for ammo for not finding the secret. Ammunition would be dispersed pretty thoroughly throughout the level keeping the player stocked at a reasonable degree. The beginning secret is just a bonus. (And yes, the plasma gun secret in MAP32: Grosse was the image that came to mind, except perhaps with alcoves so players can't liberally walk all over the ammo just by being in the room)

Here's an example:

Lets say he map opens up with a pretty large number of monsters right at the start. There's upwards of 50 shells laying around for you to use in the opening fight, and the next room has a few more shellboxes to replenish your inventory after the fight. Suppose the secret with all the shellboxes is stored in the starting room where those shells wouldn't even be needed in normal gameplay. Would you be terribly annoyed to find it if the purpose for it is unclear?

The purpose being to make ammo less likely to absorbed by repeated deaths in coop, to combat the possibility of a player ever running completely out of ammo, and a safe hiding place with resources for Nightmare. I feel like the pros outweigh the cons doesn't it?

If there's a secret that 1) only holds a fuckload of ammo 2) isn't necessary or even helpful due to the reasonable amount of ammo on the map already 3) is intended as a nightmare hold-out position then yes it's a bad secret. You're not rewarding anyone who finds it on 80% of the skill difficulties (but like 99% of the playerbase) and you're actively harming what's left; Nightmare doesn't work very well when you stick to one area and kill monsters because they're going to get back up and get right back in line to kill you. You want to be in and out as fast as possible, you don't want to be backtracking for ammo. Plus you've already got the double ammo for all the regular ammo on the map which will probably keep you pretty well stocked. If you want insurance that the player does not under any circumstances run out of ammo, give them an infinite ammo-sphere or something (which is apparently a thing in TTV!Zone map45).

Now, if that was the only health on the map and the map was built for Nightmare and Nightmare alone, it'd be a cute idea to force the player to fight his/her way back through the map to the beginning to refresh their health, as the player would have to judge at what point they're low enough to warrant running back but not so low that they'd just die on the return trip. Probably wouldn't be much fun in practice, but there might be a way to make it work. Just ammo though? Nah.

40oz said:

For example, I've been contemplating the idea of having large ammo stashes in a secret area near the starting point of almost any normal map. As long as the map isn't an arena as much as it would just be a normal progressive map that utilizes all monsters with maybe a cyberdemon fight at the end, and with a normal non-slaughter-like density. The secret (or perhaps a secret within a secret) could have upwards of 20-30 shell boxes.

My justification for this is that you can't carry the shells very far without a backpack, ammunition wouldn't be a concern in -skill 5 if you know where the secrets are, and that if the map is played in vanilla coop without item respawns, there would be enough ammunition for coop play even if the players die a lot or are overly wasteful.

Is there really any negative effects for that?

recently when playing some non-linear levels I found myself in a low-ammo situation where I had to give up what i was doing to go look for munitions... and i didnt even know where i might find them. the ammo safe house approach seems like a nice safety buffer for those situations where the player might run contra to the author's best guesses and find him or herself completely outgunned through no fault of their own, their only recourse to embrace the sweet release of Doomdeath and try again. with a supplementary storage area, daredevils can continue to bait the beast and scavenge for resources under the excitement of danger while anyone who gets frustrated for not being psychic can just walk back and refuel. i guess the mere presence of all that ammo might ruin it for some players, with the atmosphere of survival horror evaporating completely.

usually when i think that a map has too much ammo the action is too lackluster to keep me interested. doom means a little more to me than just "monsters plus gunsnammo = devilish delight". to other people, though, thats justification enuff. i would pick my audience and then stick with it

This may be slightly different, but Hellrun.wad ( http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?file=levels/doom2/g-i/hellrun2.zip ) has lots of health and ammo stockpiled around the map, basically forming a few "safe zones" where you'll be returning several times after clearing out the next section of demons.

On top of that, the map has clean texturing and a very fun to explore layout. There are quite a few different approaches for the player to take. I think it's my all time favorite single-map release.

When I see a large cache of ammo, the first thought in my mind is "Oh shit, here they come...".

Here's my hitlist, from most-to-least sucky:
1. Running out of ammo, completely. Never fun.
2. Having to travel halfway across the world to restock.
3. Mandatory ammo in non-obvious secrets.
4. Mandatory ammo in obvious secrets.
5. Plenty of ammo, for a weapon not present.
6. Exiting the level with 400/100/100/600, with tons of ammo left over.

It really is pretty difficult to find the right balance. I tend to play sloppy, wasting quite a bit of ammo at times, but I can respect players that conserve every bullet.

ClonedPickle said:

and you're actively harming what's left

youre gonna have to elaborate on that.

40oz said:

youre gonna have to elaborate on that.

ClonedPickle meant the Nightmare difficulty, as he has elaborated right after. That you're harming gameplay on that skill level.

A secret that is optional and non essential is loaded with ammunition pickups is hurting the player? Are we even talking about the same game here?

The secret is able to be overlooked and should the player find it, they can choose to max out their ammo or abandon it all together. Its the same as choosing to avoid a partial invisibility or saving an invulnerability for the right circumstance (excepting compulsions as phml described I guess) In the context of my scenario, this would mean that both choices result in an inventory exactly the same except within ~10 shotgun shells of each other after exiting the start area. All other circumstances like mandatory backtracking are conjecture and don't apply to the principles of my argument.

Ammunition doesn't make the player invincible. A player with a shotgun can get backed into a corner by a revenant or a hell knight, and either having 6 shells or 100,000,000,000 shells wont save him. The super shotgun is sort of an exception as being the most versatile and powerful weapon against dooms monster AI, but the player doesnt have to be given the supershotgun at the start of the map, and if he does want to run all the way back to the beginning to load up on shells after getting the SSG so he can be over powered, i should respect his right to choose to do that. Likewise, in nightmare, the secret area could double as a shelter to doorway camp the monsters in the start area instead of dealing with them head on where they would be more dangerous and the player might have to move around a lot to get ammunition. The secret would serve as a safe place with all the essential resources to weed out the horde enough so the player can continue through the map without having spent all his health in the start area.

The map doesn't need to be linear OR nonlinear. The starting area could be in the very center of the map, so no matter where you are the secret wouldn't be at the polar opposite side of the map should you need it. All the secret does is instill a sense of comfort knowing that no matter what you do you'll never really ever run out of ammo.

the way that harms the player in any difficulty was not addressed.

It only "harms" the player in Nightmare. In ITYTD-UV it's merely a shit ton of ammo that won't get picked up if you're already supplying the player sufficiently, unless it's like rockets or cells exclusively in which case the player will then only use rockets and cells for the rest of the map and restock at the secret. But you keep bringing up shotguns so I'm going to assume it's mostly shells. Now, if a player on Nightmare keeps picking up shell boxes while at 98/100 shells and somehow runs out of ammo, sure, they can go back to the Secret of Infinite Shells and restock. Except no matter how far away the secret is at any time, any time spent going back there is time monsters have to respawn and means you're going to have to spend more ammo to get more ammo and it's not like there's health in the secret, so unless you're a god-tier player it's safe to say you'll probably take at the very least a little bit of damage because you went back for the secret. Now your health condition is worse, but hey my shotgun's full again! Oh, darn, there were more shells in the next room anyway.

And if you're doorway camping monsters for an extended period of time you're going to be doorway camping a -lot- of monsters.

Too much ammo is generally my annoyance and sensitiveness of being overstacked. I just hate it when I either have no choice but to pick up a shell box when I have like 94 shells (44 if no backpack), or during an intense fight I accidentally pick up something I don't need at the meantime, same situation as above. It is terribly painful to see how I waste a 20-shell potential for 6, which stands for 3 shots of the SSG - avoid, evade all these item placement techniques like there's no other choice to live on.

ClonedPickle said:

It only "harms" the player in Nightmare.

I'm looking at your examples and I'm not getting how any of this is my (the mapper's) fault. Would not having the secret make the circumstances any better?

okay yeah, the player is going to have to take way too much damage or die running back to the start area's secret should he manage to use up all the ammo available elsewhere. What does removing the secret do to fix that problem? What alternatives are there?

in my experiences playing most maps in nightmare, ammo is a concern at the very start of most maps. Its hard enough dodging fast fireballs, but anticipating respawning monsters, and figuring out where to go without taking damage is hard enough without running out of ammo at any point in time. As an example just try playing doom on nightmare with infinite ammo. You'll find its significantly less frustrating without eliminating the challenge. I think a designated "this is where all the ammo you'll ever need is" location is the best way to accommodate that.

What made me always wonder is something that started from Doom, when you have 49/50 shells and you trip over a box of shells and take it. So you have wasted a whole box for just 1 shell (So, maybe ammo not spread in the center of your way on a corridor but rather in a storage room in the corner is less annoying and better level design).

But let's go back to what makes me wonder in FPS games. When doom started, maybe they didn't thought that part well or they'd have to make smaller graphics of half empty shell boxes, almost empty, or maybe when you get the box, the small shells spread around from the box. Maybe the most simple would be to go for +20 shells even if you have 49 and limit at 50. So maybe it was a decision to keep it simple then.

And some would argue that it makes gameplay more interesting, like I have shells in front of corridor that I can't jump over, so I fight with shells or try to not touch before I have 80/100. Yeah, it adds another dimension to the gameplay, trying not to touch and waste ammo. Also, the same with health, 99% and try not to touch 25% medkit. It makes doom interesting.

BUT, here it is, do you remember any other later and modern FPS changing this mechanism to make it more realistic or fair? It wouldn't be hard technically. Why all other modern FPS I played still keep this mechanic? Keep being inspired by Doom? I don't think it's the thrill of not having to touch health box while 99%. Modern FPS simplify all other things for the players (regen health, stupidly linear, etc) so why not this one? While on RPG games like Oblivion, you don't walk over arrows and lose it, you just carry more as much the weight allows you (how would a Doom with weight allowance would be?) and potions, you can select and drink (Ok, I get it, could hinter the frantic action of doom, if you have to open menu and select potion).

Or maybe just a remnant of old gameplay mechanics even before Doom that remained because they are doing fine and players don't complain? (all classic games with life energy, you eat the full-energy chicken in streets of rage even if you have 90% full. You waste it)

40oz said:

Would not having the secret make the circumstances any better?

I'm saying that if all you want is to ensure that the player has enough ammo at all times, why even bother with ammo pickups? Why not just give them infinite and leave it there? Do you not want to remove whatever positive feeling players get when they see "Picked up a box of shells." in the top left?

Why all other modern FPS I played still keep this mechanic?

Contrived as it may sound, I think there's benefits to wasted pickups; or negatives to the alternative. If you let players grab 2 shells out of a box of 20, then you can end up in a situation where they do just that, shoot more stuff, come back to get 4 more, defeat more monsters, come back again, and so on... You enter into compulsive behavior territory, a bit like the idea in this topic really.

It's also a way to control balance. You have a better idea of how much HP the player is going to have, because it's not going to be over whatever number before entering whatever area, and you know how many times he's going to get a refill exactly. Here the focus isn't about the exact amount of resources as much as the time allocated to picking up stuff.

It encourages using up your resources as well, instead of hogging up everything (see: Too Awesome To use). The more you spend, the more you get.

As you suggest, this is probably a result of inertia in many games, but I suspect sometimes this must be a conscious design choice. In an open-world RPG sandbox you want the player to run around and do things his own way, in a linear FPS you want the player to follow your railroads in a timely manner so the pacing remains optimal for him to ooh and aah at your next scripted sequence.

ClonedPickle said:

I'm saying that if all you want is to ensure that the player has enough ammo at all times, why even bother with ammo pickups? Why not just give them infinite and leave it there? Do you not want to remove whatever positive feeling players get when they see "Picked up a box of shells." in the top left?

1. I can't do that from a map editor.
2. How does that dispute the original contention that there is no such thing as too much ammo?

40oz said:

The purpose being to make ammo less likely to absorbed by repeated deaths in coop, to combat the possibility of a player ever running completely out of ammo, and a safe hiding place with resources for Nightmare. I feel like the pros outweigh the cons doesn't it?

You can add co-op only ammo, and you could also engineer ammo stashes that will only appear on nightmare (using ressurecting monsters off-map to trigger doors opening). I guess you save the extra work if you just have a shit load of ammo for all play modes, it really depends on the map. Limiting the supply of ammo can force a player to make choices that they wouldn't need to think about otherwise, and some monsters have to be approached differently depending on which ammo you have available, so its a good way to make gameplay more tactical. Then again if you just want the player to enjoy killing tons of stuff then abundant ammo is cool.