Source Ports personal deal breakers

Thanks man, yeah I was thinking about removing .rar (I added it because I noticed sometimes people share wads in .rar and people may get confused) and doing .7z/pk7 together but maybe people will understand better this way, not everyone knows it's just renamed, meh, let's see.

1) .lmp I mean these Lumps: https://github.com/kraflab/dsda-doom/tree/master/prboom2/data/lumps

2) Level Stats Bar I mean the horizontal one from DSDA, Nugget etc. that changes color when kills, items and secrets get completed. Didn't want to make the name too long but not sure how to call it, I have it in the first post too on the top list: "Horizontal level stats bar with dynamic colors"

3) For the Vorbis nice thanks I'll add it, I will add Opus as I go, MP3 it is what it is (the patent expired but yeah it's still a closed format) and the other formats I'll let them go for now, too many, I'll add this link: https://zdoom.org/wiki/Music_format

4) I should even separate OPL2 and OPL3. Ohh I see, OPL does both.

edit:

@Alaux, does Nugget support Opus, Flac, Wav files?

39 minutes ago, Professor Hastig said:

You may just as well strike RAR off the list. The unpacker for it is not considered free software due to a license restriction that is not compatible with the GPL so no GPL port will ever be able to legally support it.

While I agree that having rar support is unlikely and fairly unnecessary, there is a GPL implementation of rar decompression in libarchive, which is used by a GPL unrar program.

36 minutes ago, CacoKnight said:

@Alaux, does Nugget support Opus, Flac, Wav files?

That's the kind of stuff that's managed by the Woof devs and not me, so I'm afraid I can't tell, and I can't be bothered to try each of those formats. Sorry.

You may either ask a Woof "representative", or try yourself.

Ohh yep, same, I don't care at all but I'd just like to add it for convenience.

@fabian, @rfomin does Woof! support Opus, Flac, Wav files?

35 minutes ago, CacoKnight said:

does Woof! support Opus, Flac, Wav files?

Yes, although I haven't tested Opus. Woof can play anything that `libsndfile` supports for both music and sounds. Also tracker music via `libxmp`.

The latest PrBoom+ and DSDA-Doom can play WAV for sounds and MP3/Ogg/Flac for music. SDL_Mixer may support Opus, I haven't tested it. Tracker music works via `libdumb`.

Quote

From version 1.0.18, libsndfile also reads and writes FLAC and Ogg/Vorbis.

 

From version 1.0.29, libsndfile can read and write Ogg/Opus.

 

From version 1.1.0, libsndfile can read and write MP3.

https://libsndfile.github.io/libsndfile/formats.html

On 12/27/2023 at 2:04 AM, CacoKnight said:

1) .lmp I mean these Lumps: https://github.com/kraflab/dsda-doom/tree/master/prboom2/data/lumps

I would suggest trying to be more specific with what exactly you mean with these, because these lumps are just what gets compiled into dsda-doom.wad and are extremely varied in the purposes they serve. A bunch of them are very old and haven't been touched in over 15 years because they're things like the default Boom switches and animated lumps that determine what textures to animate/swap between, and others are very recent or exclusive to specific ports: the gls_* lumps for example being code for DSDA-Doom's indexed light mode, and dsdahud and dsdacr being for DSDA-Doom's widget-based HUD. When most people read ".lmp", they're probably going to think of a demo file and not various Boom Stuff And DSDA-Doom Features, so having it labeled as it currently is isn't very conducive to the meaning behind it. Really, most of it is covered by any port that is Boom-compatible, with the exception of the DSDA-Doom-specific pieces.

Otherwise, cool effort. It's interesting to see comparisons like these, I've always liked this page on the Doomwiki and wanted to see more stuff like it.

2 hours ago, Maribo said:

Otherwise, cool effort. It's interesting to see comparisons like these, I've always liked this page on the Doomwiki and wanted to see more stuff like it.

Thank you man, it's a good way to learn more I guess, comparing features etc. I checked that page as well a few times but I always found it incomplete and wanted to start my own thing, sometimes I collaborate to Doomwiki too, maybe one day I'll make a new table there or add to those.

For those Lumps, I get what you're saying but I'm way too new to understand all that, I don't even know much (nor care honestly) about demos, all I want to say in the table is that you can edit the extended hud style, colors, position of things/items through the .lmp config files (DSDAHUD.lmp, DSDATC.lmp etc.). How would you call them ...or better, should I call the entire line something else?

edit:

Changed to: "Extended HUD Styling".

7 hours ago, CacoKnight said:

For those Lumps, I get what you're saying but I'm way too new to understand all that, I don't even know much (nor care honestly) about demos, all I want to say in the table is that you can edit the extended hud style, colors, position of things/items through the .lmp config files (DSDAHUD.lmp, DSDATC.lmp etc.). How would you call them ...or better, should I call the entire line something else?

Oh, okay, I think the Extended HUD Styling label you've put down is probably the easiest way to communicate what you mean, although "HUD Widgets" might be a more accurate label in relation to what they literally are. I think there's going to be a little bit of confusion regardless of naming scheme but you've probably got the most understandable one at the moment. Sorry for the original confusion.

On 12/30/2023 at 6:24 AM, Maribo said:

Sorry for the original confusion.

Not at all, in fact I learned something new, I had no idea lmp files are used for demos.

Yeah, I like "extended hud styling" more, at least for now, because in the port settings all those components are called "extended hud", "hud widget" might mean widget for the original hud and seeing all the settings gzdoom has it can confuse people even more.

Not much of a source port related post/link/article but kind of... someone might find it interesting anyway and please send suggestions to add (also added in the first post): https://rentry.org/doomfavwads

I been sticking with mostly Crispy Doom, DSDA/prboom+ and Woof, and gzdoom. I got a some other ports around like Eternity or Zdoom for certain specific stuff. Not many things are dealbreakers for me, but some ports that I kind of dropped were things like Doomsday or Retro Doom, the extra features from those weren't really anything I'm interested in. I usually keep things pretty vanilla unless the map requires some advanced feature.

For me there are no real dealbreakers, except a port can't do local multiplayer.

I love playing coop multiplayer with friends since the shareware came out in the 90s.

I have ports for my separate needs.

- International-DOOM for vanilla/limit removing maps.

- Woof for BOOM/MBF maps

- Eternity Engine for EE maps and map-editing with portals.

- GZDoom for the countless GZDoom Mods.

Each port has its right to exist.

I prefer software-rendering.

As resolution something from 400p to 1200p is good for me depending on my mood and the screen size.
200p was fine in the 90s, but at this time i had a 14" CRT monitor.

So all ports, except chocolate-DOOM for the ultimate purist, are in my "resolution-range". 

I like it when DOOM has noticable pixels, because it feels a bit like the good old days.
And widescreen is a must for me today.

For me it would be:

• Unavailable for Debian Linux without compiling from source or resorting to a Flatpak or Proton.
• Lag on high-detail levels that would work fine on other ports. I like playing high-detail levels, so I avoid ports like Doomsday where they become slideshows.
• I have to be able to configure my preferred control scheme (wasd, space to activate, m1 to fire, no vertical mouse movement or mouselook), and if the relevant configuration is unintuitive I might just give up.
• No ability to choose a MIDI soundfont without altering the system-wide configuration. (I need my SC-55 Soundfont!)

I'm not super picky, and have dabbled in most major source ports at some point in time. Though I prefer maps with limit-removing compatibility most of the time, and a simple configuration menu, those are not dealbreakers for me.

May as well drop my hat into the ring, I'm bored.

• Doesn't have software renderer (OpenGL is good in DSDA for instance, but software is just easier to do janky baloney with and has bugs of its own you have to address - stuff like the infinite maze thing you can do with Boom fake floors doesn't work in hardware at all.)
• No widescreen or resolution options (I don't need 1080p, 400p/800p works fine enough - I like my Doom well done, but not burnt or medium.)
• No vanilla compatibility (GZDoom is good for mods that use it, but for normal Doom and WADs that don't use its' fancy additions, it's subpar and is missing a lot of stuff that a lot of WADs rely on - plus, demos from slightly older versions just won't work in newer ones.)
• No support for Boom/MBF. (I like doing cool stuff with MBF like room-over-room, sudden teleports, friendly monsters, and fancy doors that use Pass-Use-Action to open like ROTT doors.)

I've stuck with GZDoom for its' mods and Woof for everything else, because I have yet to work with GZDoom mapping outside of atrocious maps from 2020, and working in the vanilla format with MBF extensions is pretty fun as it is - also, no one makes mods for Eternity, ZDoom, or EDGE anymore, so I don't need to use them.

Wow the new Woof! what a release! Quickly becoming one of my favorite of all ports and I've only tested it for 10 mins.

For the new Woof! 14.1.0..

How to change the SDL mode (available values: direct3d, direct3d11, direct3d12, opengl or software).

While I agree with the Woof! devs that whatever they picked is best for the port and most users I still like the option to change/test/choose whatever mode I prefer.

On 2/16/2024 at 9:49 PM, CacoKnight said:

Wow the new Woof! what a release! Quickly becoming one of my favorite of all ports and I've only tested it for 10 mins.

Same here! A quick 10m test drive was all I needed to ditch GZDOOM for good. If there was a way to play local split screen it would replace the Unity ports for me as well.

My deal breaker is usually poor controller customization and support. I cannot fathom the reasoning for supporting controllers but NOT allowing their use in menus.

Not sure I'll ever ditch GZDoom or DSDA, they are just too ...convenient? But agree, that Woof! release was award material, the team behind is phenomenal. I still like Nugget more but any port that adds all the complevels, FOV and native resolution (or even just ≥800p) becomes a favorite.

@CacoKnight I loved GZDoom for years but I just can't bring myself to recommend it to a buddy. I'd much rather just gift the unity port on steam than to send them a GZDoom tutorial on how to set the thing up correctly (big ups to Dwars for his GZDoom video).

If one day a friend wants to venture beyond what the unity port offers, I think Woof offers the best turnkey "modern" DOOM experience.

What does Nugget offer over Woof? I haven't looked into it and I would love to hear what you like about it.

9 hours ago, skaags said:

What does Nugget offer over Woof? I haven't looked into it and I would love to hear what you like about it.

Nothing that changes how you play and how Doom is but, remember I'm a doomnoob so I like to play around with cheats occasionally and configs:

Extra fun cheats, more personalization in the .cfg file, saves/screenshots folders etc., NUGHUD customization, Extended HUD color customization, more in game menus/settings like extra keybindings... I have to think about what's more, I will keep editing.

I started using Nugget months ago, way before Woof! had extra resolutions and FOV (which Nugget already had) so I sticked with it and now I just like the Woof! improvements, new features and implementations PLUS the extra stuff of Nugget.

https://github.com/MrAlaux/Nugget-Doom?tab=readme-ov-file#features

Load Nugget and play around for 10 mins, I am sure any average Doom user will see right away if it's worth it or not (you can even copy woof.cfg to nugget-doom.cfg if you don't want to redo every customization you already set), it's a personal preference of course.

Thing is, I rather use DSDA if I have to use Woof!, Nugget has those extra things that make me want to keep it in my ports (together with GZDoom and DSDA).

9 hours ago, skaags said:

I'd much rather just gift the unity port on steam than to send them a GZDoom tutorial on how to set the thing up correctly

I started making this for my son and I kept going, now I use it for myself too, check if you like it.

That's more how I use it, I added //EXTRAS at the bottom so I can easily change a few settings for him because he likes to play .pk3 files/mods.

2 hours ago, CacoKnight said:

Nothing that changes how you play and how Doom is

I'd argue that things over/under things, jumping and crouching, and some of the new "Doom Compatibility" settings -- just to name a few -- do change how the game plays (if you enable them, of course; they're purely optional).

Oh, of course, I meant like if you keep it basic it's just Doom etc. use whatever port you like.

@Dark Pulse, I wanted to add another line on top of the first post about the "most accurate" port when used in software mode that supports at least MBF21 and possibly UDMF, which one/s would you say it is (asking you because of this)?

I was checking the configs of DSDA last night and I noticed they completely removed ENDOOM (you can still show it in the terminal), why the hell do that no idea because it's kind of cool to see it at least for PWADs but whatever.

So, back to the most accurate ... DSDA/From DOOM With Love, Woof!/Nugget/Cherry? That's about it? What about Eternity Engine? DelphiDoom?

Speaking of this: i hope DSDA someday fixes sprite clipping in hardware mode.

@CacoKnight, do you know this?

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Comparison_of_source_ports

Go down to compatibility.

But don't overestimate this list. Only high instead of very high does not meant that a port is not accurate to the player. Only high can be because of some technical quirks removed that are not noticable for the Player. But something like that is written in that linked website too.

Woof is a good option for accuracy and MBF21.

Eternity Engine, too.

Damn, I gotta bump us up to Low for Heretic

8 minutes ago, Meerschweinmann said:

do you know this?

Third link here: https://rentry.org/doomstuff#source-ports

I'd like to hear from @Dark Pulse because I like what he said about GZDoom.

4 hours ago, CacoKnight said:

@Dark Pulse, I wanted to add another line on top of the first post about the "most accurate" port when used in software mode that supports at least MBF21 and possibly UDMF, which one/s would you say it is (asking you because of this)?

 

I was checking the configs of DSDA last night and I noticed they completely removed ENDOOM (you can still show it in the terminal), why the hell do that no idea because it's kind of cool to see it at least for PWADs but whatever.

 

So, back to the most accurate ... DSDA/From DOOM With Love, Woof!/Nugget/Cherry? That's about it? What about Eternity Engine? DelphiDoom?

I'm genuinely not sure what that port would be.

My guess would be Doom Retro, given that it was directly forked from Chocolate Doom in 2013, while all the other ones I can think of off the top of my head (DSDA-Doom, Woof, etc.) all have at least one other port in between them - DSDA-Doom is forked off PrBoom+um 2.6.x, Woof is forked off WinMBF which itself was forked off Boom, etc.

Basically, Boom changed a fair bit of the guts of the engine. I do believe they'd still have stuff like the RNG tables, but I'm not 100% sure.

As for UDMF, there's really no port that strives to maintain accuracy plus support it. According to the Wiki, there's only three ports that claim both MBF21 and UDMF compatibility: DelphiDoom (though it's not perfect as some demos do go out of sync), Eternity Engine (which will definitely have changed a bunch of stuff), and GZDoom (ditto).

I guess your best bet, if you needed a port that supported both, would be DelphiDoom - obviously GZDoom can't play back standard demos right. I've got no idea about Eternity, but I'd be surprised if it has 100% demo compatibility. But even then, DelphiDoom did do some changes that break some demos, so it isn't perfect.

If UDMF is less important, possibly Doom Retro might be your best bet, as it was forked from Chocolate.

Thank you, Retro is good but it doesn't go over 400p, I have to stop compromising somewhere or this is never going to end. DSDA and Woof!/Nugget it is then for accuracy, not necessarily the most vanilla, maybe they can too tweaking with the right settings.